Best Car 2008 Series : The R8 Takes It!

[nd 4 holden spd]

Yeah, i couldnt remember exactly what they said but i knew they made reference to it, and once again its all a matter of personal opinion. As I'm aware they sell the Corsa (little thing i think?), Astra, Vectra and the VXR8. I suppose the vectra you could label as a boring car?



Unfortunately the world is full of people who believe that there is only one way to think about things, which of course is theirs. For what its worth, i 100% agree with you.

The Vectra is a boring car, the new Insignia is not, or is the Corsa VXR (yes, a little car, the old Barinas are old Corsas), nor the Astra, the VXR8, or in recent times, the Monaro or the Vauxhall Speedster. Whether they perform well in their segements is irrelevant atm, but they're certainly not boring.

Their MPVs are boring though, even the VXR versions.

Edit: Must be an Aussie thing that we think more about function over form and like 4 doors on our muscle cars.

Edit 2: And good luck in the Formula Ford, if you end up at QLD Raceway ever at all send me a PM and maybe we could meet in person up there.

 

[Joey D]

Man, I like you. Their main reason for not liking Holdens is cheap feeling interiors, which to me is just a mental reason to not like a car.

I can think of about 10 other reasons why not to buy a G8 that do not have to do with the quality of the interior. GM has build such poor quality vehicles for so long I can not believe that they've solved it in a matter of a couple years. About the only thing in a G8 that will be reliable is the V8 engine because it's so simple. I would worry about the transmission though since every GM vehicle I've owned or a family member has owned ended up having transmission problems.

Really the only two good things I can think of about the G8 is the performance for the money and to some extent it looks decent. Other then that I can't see why people would want them, and judging by the amount still sitting on the lots around here people don't. The G8 won't last long in America and go the way of the GTO. I really don't understand why Pontiac still exists.

I don't like the car, I think it's a poor excuse for a saloon when you have other winners on the market. Sure it's faster then a BMW 5-series, big deal, it's never going to be as nice as the 5-series even though GM basically stole the rear pillar off of it.

 

[Jay]

Edit: Must be an Aussie thing that we think more about function over form and like 4 doors on our muscle cars.

No, the whole reason I bought my Monaro was because it had two doors, no way in hell I was buying a 4 door 'muscle car', if there wasn't a Monaro to buy I would have bought a LH, LX hatch instead.


And look now, the great thing about Monaro is it cannot be copied like the Falcon GT, I imagine there is 5 times the amount of GT's on the road than ever built 400% of them being replicas, you can't replica a HK-HG Monaro and now their price has soared through the roof.

IAbout the only thing in a G8 that will be reliable is the V8 engine because it's so simple.

And sadly Omni's uncles band new G8 has already broke down and need a tow

 

[Joey D]

I can both believe and not believe at the same time it broke down so soon after getting it. This isn't the first story I've heard either, on two other occasion (one from a family friend and another acquaintance) I've been told about owner's new G8's breaking down. They both turned out to be electrical problems. I figured maybe it was just a fluke considering Michigan got the first batch of them. But now one outside the GM capital of the world is being struck with problems...don't you Aussies know how to screw a car together, or did you take lessons from the Americans?

Oh and I found this article which comes from www.cars.com in May of 2008 which backs up what I've been saying about how the G8 isn't selling well here in America.

Pontiac G8: 1,832 units sold
Last year at this time, the outgoing and completely outdated Pontiac Grand Prix, which the G8 replaces, sold 12,230 units. Let’s just say for the sake of argument that half of those were fleet sales (which is probably on the high side). That would still mean it sold three times as well as the all-new, very-well-reviewed Pontiac G8. For the past few years, GM loyalists have begged GM to build this car, but now it seems these people aren’t willing to part with their cash for this large sedan. The V-8 version gets 15/24 mpg and the V-6 gets 17/25 mpg, both near the top in the segment, but still not attractive in $4-a-gallon-gas territory. That could be one issue.

Source: http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/06/new-models-not.html

 

[YSSMAN]

Gas prices are the main reason why the G8 isn't selling, I can tell you that right now. Another problem is going to be the fact that Pontiac advertised for the car for two months, and then stopped completely. What gives?

All the way around, GM wasn't planning on selling that many to begin with, and for that matter, I don't think it bugs them too much that it hasn't exactly "exploded" onto the scene as originally thought. Despite the lagging sales, I think we're going to see GM keep the car around because of the development costs and the fact that a sale is a sale, no matter what. Its hard to say what exactly the future holds for the idea in general, but, I think GM could do a lot more to make the G8 a car that is more attractive to possible buyers.

===

UPDATE:

The DB9 definitely beat the Alfa 8C, which is still an interesting thread in itself. The 197 ended up doing worse against the S2000 than I had expected, so we'll see what the other threads end up doing. More coming soon!

 

[niky]

I was at a motorshow recently where I got to compare, firsthand, the quality difference between "global" GMDAT-Chevrolet products and US GM-Chevrolet products... let's put two examples up... the Epica (2 liter diesel) and the Malibu (in this case, the hybrid).

These two cars share some family features, but otherwise couldn't be more different. It's obvious the Malibu is the more solid car... roomier, seemingly better screwed together, with more space and better looks... but those impressions fade as you close the doors... the plastics aren't uniformly terrible, but you can still tell you're in an American car... flimsy construction here and there... those ridiculous soft plastic arm-rests that dent up to half-an inch over the screw-holes... horrible stuff... and this is supposed to be the "new" GM?

The Epica, on the other hand, looks nearly Chinese... it's a Korean, yes, and looks typically Korean, but the Korean market has moved on... to make a car that looks traditionally Korean when the Koreans are now making kick-ass cars is unforgiveable. Chintzy wood-grain, a tilt-adjustable steering column that flops rather than moves up and down (ugh... and no telescoping either)... really so-so... but at least they've got the plastic quality right.

What boggles the mind is: why can't GM take the interior materials (except the wood) of the Epica, shove it in the Malibu... give the Malibu the Epica's 2 liter diesel (from trying this one out in the Captiva, it's a good motor) and sell the whole package worldwide... with better economies of scale... bigger margins, and a much more competitive, overall, package? Did GM not get the memo or see how Ford did it with Mazda and Volvo? You buy out a company... spread the technology, and build the same thing everywhere. It 's a system that works.

More to the point, did Ford of America not see how Ford of Europe did it with Mazda and Volvo? Which is probably why our American-owned dealership structure in Asia only sells US-made trucks, and relies on the European market for cars.

 

[YSSMAN]

I understand you're arguement completely, and I'd tend to agree with you. The thing is, despite the fact that the Malibu doesn't have the "best" interior, you can easily make an arguement in its favor against the current Camry and the obvious Korean entries. I think what GM went for is 85% on quality, 100% on looks. That interior looks amazing, and truth be told, its twice as functional as most cars out there that go about with far too many buttons for me to attempt to understand. Of course, much of that depends on if you get the "upgraded" interior or not. The two-tone one is very, very good, the other is a bit "plain."

As for the diesel issue, GM will be giving us Americans a small-displacement turbo engine (1.4L) before we'll likely see diesel in the car here in the US. That is not to say that it wouldn't go it (after all, its still a Saab 9-3 underneath), but part of the problem is that its still riding on the Epsilon I chassis.

Given another two to three years, we're going to see a "global" model that will replace both the Epica and the Malibu in the same way that the Cruze will end up replacing the Cobalt, Lacetti, etc. My hopes are high for any of the Epsilon II cars, but we've got a while to wait.

 

[niky]

As long as it's not named Penelope, I'll be fine with it... Cruze just doesn't conjure images of a world-class car... it sounds more like what a California chop-shop would call their latest low-rider creation.

 

[YSSMAN]

Perhaps this is a good place to mention the upsets that have been going on?

The "death" of the Corvette was a surprise, I have to be honest. As was the loss of the Alfa 8C. As was pointed out in the other threads, while there may be legitimate reasons as to why some of this is occurring, fanboyism and anti-fanboyism may play a critical role in how or why some cars are losing. That is not to say that I wish to change the results, however, it is more or less to hope that we may have better luck at giving these cars a fair shot later on.

I made the brackets competitive for a reason, I hope it stays that way. Part of the problem, however, is that people aren't necessarily considering what is "best," but instead are clinging to the old stereotypes against the cars... American cars have crappy interiors, Italian cars break down, the Germans are overpriced, etc...

It still makes it all a very interesting show, but, nevertheless, I do want things to be fair as well.

 

[Philly]

Fanboyism certainly can be an issue (and I'm guilty of it myself), but there generally is some kind of truth to back it up. Sure, it may lead you to pick a car that isn't quite as good, but to be a fan, and support the car, there has to be at least something meritable about the car.

Another question: Is there somewhere where we can see the bracket fill in as battles are won and lost for us visual learners?

 

[Jay]

Perhaps this is a good place to mention the upsets that have been going on?

The "death" of the Corvette was a surprise, I have to be honest. As was the loss of the Alfa 8C. As was pointed out in the other threads, while there may be legitimate reasons as to why some of this is occurring, fanboyism and anti-fanboyism may play a critical role in how or why some cars are losing. That is not to say that I wish to change the results, however, it is more or less to hope that we may have better luck at giving these cars a fair shot later on.

I made the brackets competitive for a reason, I hope it stays that way. Part of the problem, however, is that people aren't necessarily considering what is "best," but instead are clinging to the old stereotypes against the cars... American cars have crappy interiors, Italian cars break down, the Germans are overpriced, etc...

Honestly I cant see it, and find it a little unfair to the voters say fanboyism (and anti) is/could be playing a critical role. Corvette vs SL65 black (I voted Corvette) is hardly a one way call and the votes reflect this. As for DB9 vs 8c (I voted DB9) the DB9 has always been known for it's looks well before the 8c came along and is a very popular car.


I don't really like my vote (aswell as others) to be labeled as a possible fanboy biased.

 

[gator of kana]

Honestly I cant see it, and find it a little unfair to the voters say fanboyism (and anti) is/could be playing a critical role. Corvette vs SL65 black (I voted Corvette) is hardly a one way call and the votes reflect this. As for DB9 vs 8c (I voted DB9) the DB9 has always been known for it's looks well before the 8c came along and is a very popular car.


I don't really like my vote (aswell as others) to be labeled as a possible fanboy biased.

Well you can call me antifanboyism on the DB9, people said it looks sexy but I don't anything sexy about it.To me I think it's just looks like a fat British car that has very weird body styling and is boring, and I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm just giving my 100% honest opinion

 

[Jay]

Well you can call me antifanboyism on the DB9, people saisd it looks sexy but I don't anything sexy about it.To me I think it's just looks like a fat British car that has very weird body styling and is boring, and I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm just giving my 100% honest opinion

In other words you don't like the DB9 so you didn't vote for it and thats fair, thats not what antifanboyism is all about.

 

[gator of kana]

In other words you don't like the DB9 so you didn't vote for it and thats fair, thats not what antifanboyism is all about.

Yeah, just like when you vote for presidents, and I only know half of what antiboyism is.

 

[niky]

Maybe not as much anti-fanboyism (methinks I'm partially at fault for bringing up that word in the other thread) but maybe, as YSSMAN says, stereotypes are coming into play... people voting the other way just because they don't like a car for one reason or the other, whether the reason is valid or not.

Personally, I want to see a car win on its own merit... not on the perceived lack of merit of its competitor, based on preconceptions...

Note:

Vette versus SL65, preconception: Vette cheap, not sophisticated, despite having a more sophisticated suspension and being much lighter than the similarly sized SL65 thanks to composite bodywork. Oh... and did I mention the absurdly fast Nurb time for what some reviewers consider the best-riding (read: it's comfortable... and we dont' know yet if the SL65 will be soft, stiff or McMerc on the rocks) super sports car ever?

Renault versus Commodore: Renault wrong-wheel drive. Automatic fail, without considering the car's other merits. Of course, goes two ways... lots of negatives versus the Commodore, too, that it didnt' deserve.

Aston versus Alfa: well... it was always going to be a battle of styling preferences... but I'm shocked the Alfa lost (missed the voting).

----

It's hard to point a finger and say explicitly that it's happening, but it does seem to play a role in these battles. I'm not going to accuse any one person, but I urge people to work with an open mind and see these cars for their merits... not for what they, or their brands, have stood for in the past (one reason why the Genesis, after an early lead, lost the "World Car" voting).

 

[exigeracer]

Quick question: was the Tesla nominated anywhere along the process? I would've totally stood up for that thing!

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Quick question: was the Tesla nominated anywhere along the process? I would've totally stood up for that thing!

No, I think we must like our engines making glorious noises.

 

[YSSMAN]

Another question: Is there somewhere where we can see the bracket fill in as battles are won and lost for us visual learners?

Here it is so-far...

 

[Tornado]

As was pointed out in the other threads, while there may be legitimate reasons as to why some of this is occurring, fanboyism and anti-fanboyism may play a critical role in how or why some cars are losing.

Look, I'm sorry I didn't vote for the 'Vette despite knowing that the ZR-1 is most likely going to be a better car than the SL65 Black. Call it a rare lapse of judgement.

 

[///M-Spec]

Look:

Calling someone a fanboy and labeling someone's a choice as 'a fanboy pick' (or however you want to call it) is really just a simple, plain old Ad hominem attack.

Instead of refuting the argument (eg. ZOMG the GTR is the best car EVAR!!!111), calling the speaker a fanboy simply attacks his credibility. It circumvents having to burden yourself with actually using your brain and coming with a proper counter-argument. Those of you who've been in the Opinions Forum probably already know it's #1 on the Unofficial Opinions Forum Guide.

Why bother applying some critical thinking when you can just say:

"Shut up, you stupid poopie-head!!!"

That's what my five year old does. It works really well for her, until her mother or I send her to her room.


Now:

Do we have people here at GTP who have strong biases and little to no facts with which to support their unfounded opinions? YES.

Do we have people here who constantly speak well beyond their own personal knowledge and experience? TEN-FOUR.

Do we have people here who make decisions based on emotion rather than logic? ABSOLUTELY.

Do we have people here who pick and choose facts only when it supports their conclusion and conveniently ignore facts when they don't? ROGER THAT, OVER AND OUT.

Does calling them a fanboy in any way support whatever opinion you might have on the matter? Not really.

Does it show that you know something they don't? Hardly.

Does it show that your opinion is grounded in research or experience and that your conclusions are reached by cold, hard, unassailable logic? What do you think, Sherlock?

The best way to fight a poorly formed argument is not with another poorly formed argument. If you think someone is full of it, point out why they're full of it. Just saying so does nothing but prove that you're just like them (or worse).


M

 

[Tornado]

"Shut up, you stupid poopie-head!!!"

 

[niky]

On a side note, you can probably cross the Koeniggsegg off... it hasn't got a chance in hell of catching up at this point.

 

[YSSMAN]

Look, I'm sorry I didn't vote for the 'Vette despite knowing that the ZR-1 is most likely going to be a better car than the SL65 Black. Call it a rare lapse of judgement.

Don't worry about it from me, democratically, the Corvette lost. What I'm worried about is threads like what we'll likely see with the GT-R, and what may occur in some of the second round events where VERY different cars are going to be facing off... I'll come out and say that I'm anticipating a fight between the SL Black and the FIAT 500, and I'm quite certain that people scoff at the idea of a FWD sub-compact taking down what is otherwise a supercar.

I just want the results to be fair, interesting, and thoughtful. It doesn't matter what the results end up being.

 

[nissman]

Err, firstly, Nissman wasn't an insult, but it does sound pretty funny.:

yo guys my PSN is NISSMAN_teamNUR i love nissan so i put an M in.I dont now whats so funny about it.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Err, firstly, Nissman wasn't an insult, but it does sound pretty funny.:

yo guys my PSN is NISSMAN_teamNUR i love nissan so i put an M in.I dont now whats so funny about it.

Funny as in clever.👍 Nissan man, Nissman, makes sense to me.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'll come out and say that I'm anticipating a fight between the SL Black and the FIAT 500, and I'm quite certain that people scoff at the idea of a FWD sub-compact taking down what is otherwise a supercar.

They probably will, unfortunately. I for one won't be voting for the extortionate and pretty irrelevant Merc.

 

[Wolfe]

I'll come out and say that I'm anticipating a fight between the SL Black and the FIAT 500, and I'm quite certain that people scoff at the idea of a FWD sub-compact taking down what is otherwise a supercar.

They probably will, unfortunately. I for one won't be voting for the extortionate and pretty irrelevant Merc.

You guys can't honestly expect a crowd of mostly young car enthusiasts, who have gathered on this forum to share the interest of virtual racing, to pick a practical subcompact over a rip-roaring supercar.

Beyond the fact that your expectations are a bit unrealistic, what's so "wrong" about picking the SL Black over the 500? This is the "Best Car Series," not the "Most Influential, Unique, Innovative, or Flexible Car That Isn't a Sportscar or Supercar Series." For different people, "Best" could mean anything, and in the context of this poll, it's practically a synonym for "Favorite." And I know we've been over this before.

The way I see it, if the SL65 wins, that means it's a better supercar than the 500 is a goofy subcompact car. Which, if I'm honest, pretty much matches my opinion of the two. I'm not crazy about Mercs, but I'm not crazy about tiny wrong-wheel-drive cars, either, regardless of how "neat" they are. Besides, the SL65 Black represents a shift in the way AMG approaches building a sportscar, which is why I voted for it over the 'Vette (another car I'm not crazy about, at least in C5/C6 form).

Nothing personal, homeforsummer, but voting for the 500 simply because most people will vote for the SL65 seems just as lame as what you and YSSMAN are complaining about. I almost did that with the FAW Vita C1, if only as a joke, but decided against it. Of course, if you have other reasons for choosing the 500, by all means, go for it.

 

[gator of kana]

They probably will, unfortunately. I for one won't be voting for the extortionate and pretty irrelevant Merc.

I would too. YSSMAN, that's not a close match to put the Fiat 500 against the SL Black, try a competition that would make the person think for what to vote for, like for example the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution vs. the Subaru Impreza.

 

[Philly]

I have a feeling that that debate may come down to deciding whether the 500 is better at being a fun, funky, practical subcompact than the SL is at being an all-out supercar for guys between 15 and 22 to have wet dreams over.

 

[McLaren]

I would too. YSSMAN, that's not a close match to put the Fiat 500 against the SL Black, try a competition that would make the person think for what to vote for, like for example the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution vs. the Subaru Impreza.

YSSMAN can't decide who goes against who except for making up the brackets. And the Lancer Vs. Impreza poll would never come up. Only 1 Japanese car makes it into the final bracket.

The only reason the comparisons are like this is due to us nominating & voting for what car we thought was best from around the world.