Bound & rebound settings
- Thread starter Tomhrmns
- 28 comments
- 5,156 views
- 3,194
I'll give ya a hint,. how about that
10's on bound means "stiff"
1's on rebound means "stiff"
When rallying, you want to have a loose set-up, to help absorb bumps. This also means you need to take spring rate into consideration. 20/20 would be every stiff springs, as to where 4/4 is very loose.
Trouble-shoot, Trouble-shoot, Trouble-shoot
10's on bound means "stiff"
1's on rebound means "stiff"
When rallying, you want to have a loose set-up, to help absorb bumps. This also means you need to take spring rate into consideration. 20/20 would be every stiff springs, as to where 4/4 is very loose.
Trouble-shoot, Trouble-shoot, Trouble-shoot
- 3,194
I REALLY meant it truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust me 👍 
truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust me 👍
- 3,194
Ahh frick,.... no, ROFL!
I've been at this game for over a year now,... and consider myself a master tuner. But I can't explain how the crap works when I can't even change my own oil in real life
I just apply simple theory combined with a few tricks I've learned along the way. One of them happens to be the fact the re-bound is reversed. I dont know how it "works", but this information came from multiple, VERY, VERY reliable sources.
You can test the theory for yourself if you wish. Shouldn't be too hard to deduce stiffness
I've been at this game for over a year now,... and consider myself a master tuner. But I can't explain how the crap works when I can't even change my own oil in real life
I just apply simple theory combined with a few tricks I've learned along the way. One of them happens to be the fact the re-bound is reversed. I dont know how it "works", but this information came from multiple, VERY, VERY reliable sources.
You can test the theory for yourself if you wish. Shouldn't be too hard to deduce stiffness
A lower rebound # would indicate less resistance to rebound or return to normal ride hight after a "compression" or I guess you could say a "bound". Thus a lower # would make the car spring back up quickly, which may give the feel of stiff, but I would agree with ND that a higher # in both would be stiffer. Higher #'s in both would mean higher resistance to movement in both directions (up and down). I hope this helps you "know" how it "works" instead of just taking a reliable sources word for it.
- 9,209
- DerAlta
I did a bit of testing on this last night, and found that setting 10's on bound, and 1's on rebound make for a car that has excessive body roll. While this may keep the tires in even contact with the ground (therefore, power to the dirt), it increases body roll in the vehicle.
The fallout from the excessive body roll, is unpredictable weight transfers that give rise to differing rates of traction at each wheel. Setting the rebound at 10, may not give the best results in keeping tires in even contact with the ground, it decreases the body roll, making for a stable, easily controllable car.
For a racer who has spent considreable time investigating his car, and knows it's intricacies on a given track, the body roll would not pose a problem. For the recreational player, a controllable car is a better racer.
AO
The fallout from the excessive body roll, is unpredictable weight transfers that give rise to differing rates of traction at each wheel. Setting the rebound at 10, may not give the best results in keeping tires in even contact with the ground, it decreases the body roll, making for a stable, easily controllable car.
For a racer who has spent considreable time investigating his car, and knows it's intricacies on a given track, the body roll would not pose a problem. For the recreational player, a controllable car is a better racer.
AO
- 3,194
Ya hear that Vrd? The car 'ROLLS' more with the 10/10 - 1/1 vs the all 10's,.... meaning what? There is less 'travel' in the rebounds and bounds,... wich, in theory, means their stiff...... right?
Oh BTW,... yes, I am going to believe the things I hear from these other people,.... my sources have been playing this series since the original,.. how long have you played?
- 9,209
- DerAlta
Before we get very heated up, I'll apologize for my response sounding like an attack. I didn't mean it that way.
A slight misconception on your part, I wasn't quite clear enough. The body of the car moves around more. From the inside of the car, it would look like there was a significant amount of bouncing.
So, in effect it would mean that the shocks are not stiff. Shocks keep the car body stationary when traveling over bumps. With the settings at 1, the car rebounds slower meaning the body bounces around more.
I too believe what other people say, after I test it. I've only played GT3 since August of 2001. However, most of the guys that I listen too have played since GT1.
So we're both in the same boat. I've got reliable, trusted info that says "For Rally, run 10/10". you've got reliable trusted info that says "For Rally, run 1/10". My info also comes from knowledgeable people who race in the real world.
I've done some preliminary testing, and found excessive body roll (which isn't a good thing) with the settings at 1/10. I've found much less body roll at 10/10.
Body roll is a bad thing, as it causes individual tires to be overloaded when transfering weight. In any racing, you want to keep the car's weight evenly distributed on each tire. Even weight distribution is key in eliminating loss of traction. You can take a corner faster when the weight is carried by 4 tires, as opposed to when the weight is carried by just the front tires. When getting on the brakes hard, more weight is transfered to the front tires. When setting your Bound and rebound to higer levels, it slows the weight transfer, leaving more of the cars weight on the rear tires. Thus, allowing traction to be carried by all four tires. To stop a car, you need to generate friction betwen the tires and the road. The higher the friction the faster you stop (hence down force makes you corner better). However, too much pressure (weight) will exceed the friction given by the tires. So...Keeping the weight distributed across all 4 tires, is a good thing.
Now... One last thing to keep in mind, is info that PD didn't model the dirt correctly in the Rally section. That's why I run 10/10 during rally races.
Now when it comes to pavement/Tarmac I don't run 10/10 all the way around. You need more grip at certain points. 5/6 on front 6/7 on back is where I usually start. Increase turn-in, lower the front, raise the rear. Too much turn-in, raise the front, lower the rear.
This is an extreme oversimplification of shock settings on pavement, as Camber/toe and stabilizers play into it more.
I am in no way trying to diswade you form your thinking on suspension tuning, but rather justify why I tune the car with 10/10 for rally racing.
AO
A slight misconception on your part, I wasn't quite clear enough. The body of the car moves around more. From the inside of the car, it would look like there was a significant amount of bouncing.
So, in effect it would mean that the shocks are not stiff. Shocks keep the car body stationary when traveling over bumps. With the settings at 1, the car rebounds slower meaning the body bounces around more.
I too believe what other people say, after I test it. I've only played GT3 since August of 2001. However, most of the guys that I listen too have played since GT1.
So we're both in the same boat. I've got reliable, trusted info that says "For Rally, run 10/10". you've got reliable trusted info that says "For Rally, run 1/10". My info also comes from knowledgeable people who race in the real world.
I've done some preliminary testing, and found excessive body roll (which isn't a good thing) with the settings at 1/10. I've found much less body roll at 10/10.
Body roll is a bad thing, as it causes individual tires to be overloaded when transfering weight. In any racing, you want to keep the car's weight evenly distributed on each tire. Even weight distribution is key in eliminating loss of traction. You can take a corner faster when the weight is carried by 4 tires, as opposed to when the weight is carried by just the front tires. When getting on the brakes hard, more weight is transfered to the front tires. When setting your Bound and rebound to higer levels, it slows the weight transfer, leaving more of the cars weight on the rear tires. Thus, allowing traction to be carried by all four tires. To stop a car, you need to generate friction betwen the tires and the road. The higher the friction the faster you stop (hence down force makes you corner better). However, too much pressure (weight) will exceed the friction given by the tires. So...Keeping the weight distributed across all 4 tires, is a good thing.
Now... One last thing to keep in mind, is info that PD didn't model the dirt correctly in the Rally section. That's why I run 10/10 during rally races.
Now when it comes to pavement/Tarmac I don't run 10/10 all the way around. You need more grip at certain points. 5/6 on front 6/7 on back is where I usually start. Increase turn-in, lower the front, raise the rear. Too much turn-in, raise the front, lower the rear.
This is an extreme oversimplification of shock settings on pavement, as Camber/toe and stabilizers play into it more.
I am in no way trying to diswade you form your thinking on suspension tuning, but rather justify why I tune the car with 10/10 for rally racing.
AO
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
No, RER, you've got it wrong about what DA is saying. He is saying that with the rebound on 1, the car has excessive body roll.
This means that the rebound force is weaker, allowing the car to stay compressed on the loaded side. That's not 'stiff', in theory or otherwise. I understand what you're saying, but that's not the way engineers think of it.
No suspension engineer is ever going to want the suspension to stay deep in compression for a moment longer than necessary. I personally know suspension engineers who are also road racers. They measure 'stiffness' by the resistance of the wheel to being out of its normal static position. So in other words, a stiff suspension is one that does not easily move out of its static position, and that returns quickly to that position.
Body roll is bad because it leads to highly uneven loading of the tires. Obviously, in racing you need the tires to be sharing the work as equally as possible. This is why race cars are set up with so much roll stiffness that FWD cars usually lift the inside rear tire under braking/cornering (I've done it in my Neon), and RWD cars sometimes lift the inside front tire on exit acceleration.
This means that the rebound force is weaker, allowing the car to stay compressed on the loaded side. That's not 'stiff', in theory or otherwise. I understand what you're saying, but that's not the way engineers think of it.
No suspension engineer is ever going to want the suspension to stay deep in compression for a moment longer than necessary. I personally know suspension engineers who are also road racers. They measure 'stiffness' by the resistance of the wheel to being out of its normal static position. So in other words, a stiff suspension is one that does not easily move out of its static position, and that returns quickly to that position.
Body roll is bad because it leads to highly uneven loading of the tires. Obviously, in racing you need the tires to be sharing the work as equally as possible. This is why race cars are set up with so much roll stiffness that FWD cars usually lift the inside rear tire under braking/cornering (I've done it in my Neon), and RWD cars sometimes lift the inside front tire on exit acceleration.
- 3,194
Ok,. now that both of you have confused the crap outta me, .... whats the synopsis?
a 10 on the rebound makes for NO-compression, or A LOT of compression?
.... whats the synopsis?a 10 on the rebound makes for NO-compression, or A LOT of compression?
- 3,194
OMG,... this is insanity. That's what I had thought for about 11 months,... then I was informed differently, recently, by two, what I considered to be extremely reliable sources, that it was the other way.
I give up,...,... all I know is that I very RARELY stray from an all 10's setup when racing. In rallies, I just drop the spring rate slightly.
I give up,...
,... all I know is that I very RARELY stray from an all 10's setup when racing. In rallies, I just drop the spring rate slightly.
- 9,209
- DerAlta
So your taking their word as fact? Have you given it an honest test and evaluated their theory? Instead of taking anyone's word (mine included) for solid answers, evaluate it and see what works for you.
I wouldn't want to influence others opinions, but I would like to provide enough info for someone else to make an informed decision.
As far as you've stated Red Eye, is that someone gave you the info, and you took it as given because they are fast racers? Have you downloaded all the top players replays from the 9 boards and checked to see if your style matches theirs?
Thanks for discussing this with me. I may be wrong, and would be absolutely pleased to find a better way to race.
Thanks,
AO
I wouldn't want to influence others opinions, but I would like to provide enough info for someone else to make an informed decision.
As far as you've stated Red Eye, is that someone gave you the info, and you took it as given because they are fast racers? Have you downloaded all the top players replays from the 9 boards and checked to see if your style matches theirs?
Thanks for discussing this with me. I may be wrong, and would be absolutely pleased to find a better way to race.
Thanks,
AO
And I don't really care how you set up your Sh*#, I was just stating fact about how "real" world suspension works. I don't by any means discount advice from people that have been playing a long time. I find though that all drivers are different and the best way to setup a car is to know some facts about the way things behave, or in other words understand the theory or concept behind the settings and then apply your own changes to your liking.
That being said do I dare say that GT3 is far from an accurate sim and as such, logically counterproductive adjustments may very well make some guys go faster.
I had no intention of insult by my post. I do have over 20 years in the automotive aftermarket business, and am ASE Certified in brakes, suspension and steering (which includes alignment) among other areas. So I feel I have a little knowledge of "real" world suspension physics. And I have generally found good results when applying real world physics logic to GT3.
So I guess the long and short of it was I was trying to give you some info that would help you understand what you were doing when you made settings, which in my teaching experience always is more helpful than just "set it like this cause I said so".
Anyway Nuf said, just go fast
That being said do I dare say that GT3 is far from an accurate sim and as such, logically counterproductive adjustments may very well make some guys go faster.
I had no intention of insult by my post. I do have over 20 years in the automotive aftermarket business, and am ASE Certified in brakes, suspension and steering (which includes alignment) among other areas. So I feel I have a little knowledge of "real" world suspension physics. And I have generally found good results when applying real world physics logic to GT3.
So I guess the long and short of it was I was trying to give you some info that would help you understand what you were doing when you made settings, which in my teaching experience always is more helpful than just "set it like this cause I said so".
Anyway Nuf said, just go fast
- 3,194
Yeah please don't get me wrong guy's... I'm in no possition to argue the subject, esspecially with a 'real life' pro 👍
But, as DA suggested, I should probably investigate this further for myself. Thoughg, I have done some testing, I suppose I havent gone to the extent of proving it to myself.
But on the contrary DA,.... the info was givin to me by racers of the same caliber as myself,.... and last time I checked, I was one of the fastest drivers at the 9bc. On top of that,... I took the crap races, sorta like takin one for the team,.... ya know
please don't get me wrong guy's... I'm in no possition to argue the subject, esspecially with a 'real life' pro 👍 But, as DA suggested, I should probably investigate this further for myself. Thoughg, I have done some testing, I suppose I havent gone to the extent of proving it to myself.
But on the contrary DA,.... the info was givin to me by racers of the same caliber as myself,.... and last time I checked, I was one of the fastest drivers at the 9bc.
On top of that,... I took the crap races, sorta like takin one for the team,.... ya know 
- 2,063
At the risk of adding confusion to the mix once more, I've always worked on the assumption that, in GT3, the higher the Rebound value then the more slowly the springs uncompress! As in a high Rebound value imparts a greater resistance in the Damper and slows the rate at which the associated spring is permitted to return to it's original length.
That's why, for example, if I want to encourage better corner entry, I tend to slightly lower the Front Bound value (to allow the front springs to compress more quickly under braking and thus drop the nose) and increase the Front Rebound to retard the rate at which the nose rises again after braking has finished. As with any tuning adjustement of course, there is a price to pay elsewhere in the performance envelope as working to keep the nose down hinders weight transfer to the rear during acceleration which, in an FR/MR car would work against being able to get power down to the road again as you're exiting the corner - nothing in life is free as they say
.
That's why, for example, if I want to encourage better corner entry, I tend to slightly lower the Front Bound value (to allow the front springs to compress more quickly under braking and thus drop the nose) and increase the Front Rebound to retard the rate at which the nose rises again after braking has finished. As with any tuning adjustement of course, there is a price to pay elsewhere in the performance envelope as working to keep the nose down hinders weight transfer to the rear during acceleration which, in an FR/MR car would work against being able to get power down to the road again as you're exiting the corner - nothing in life is free as they say
.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
Well, there's another vote for RER's cause. One thing seems clear - the effect must be subtle if two sets of peopla are coming at it from the opposite way, and seeing results that bear out our thinking.
Sukerkin, in general I know you like to run a fairly stiff car, and usually with the rebounds set higher. Does that mean you like to have the weight stay transferred?
And does anybody have the stupid Official GT3 Strategy Guide to see if there is information on this topic?
Typically real racers want the wheel to be slightly soft in bound so that the suspension compliance absorbs the impact, but then return quickly so that the tire doesn't unload over little crests in the surface. This means they want the rebound action to be quick. Of course, all this has to be balanced against the risk of oscillation in the wheel.
I'll see if I can contact a few of my racer friends for some light on the subject. I have to tread carefully though because most of them don't approve of racing video games.
Sukerkin, in general I know you like to run a fairly stiff car, and usually with the rebounds set higher. Does that mean you like to have the weight stay transferred?
And does anybody have the stupid Official GT3 Strategy Guide to see if there is information on this topic?
Typically real racers want the wheel to be slightly soft in bound so that the suspension compliance absorbs the impact, but then return quickly so that the tire doesn't unload over little crests in the surface. This means they want the rebound action to be quick. Of course, all this has to be balanced against the risk of oscillation in the wheel.
I'll see if I can contact a few of my racer friends for some light on the subject. I have to tread carefully though because most of them don't approve of racing video games.
Duke, the official strategy guide has an extremely poor section on the bound and rebound and explaining what it's purpouse is.
I have always been under the impression that with a rebound of 10, the shocks will go back to there normal position as quickly as possible.
I have always been under the impression that with a rebound of 10, the shocks will go back to there normal position as quickly as possible.
Actually the explanation I made was the same as sukerkin, though I must not have been clear or nobody cared to read it. It doesnt agree with what RER said though that lower rebound means stiffer. Of course I was applying real world logic, which may not hold true in GT3, as demonstrated by the fact that positive camber settings are actually negative.
My point was that the bound (I would call compression) and rebound settings "represent the amount of resistance the damper provides against spring movement or travel in general". Thus higher bound means the damper compresses slower (which in my mind means stiffer) and high rebound means it "rebounds" slower after a compression or bound.
So it sounds as if everyone agrees that higher bound #'s mean the damper compresses slower or in other words it more resistant to movement. But where we are confused is if higher rebound #'s mean it returns quicker or slower than lower #'s?
But now I may just be stating the obvious.
My point was that the bound (I would call compression) and rebound settings "represent the amount of resistance the damper provides against spring movement or travel in general". Thus higher bound means the damper compresses slower (which in my mind means stiffer) and high rebound means it "rebounds" slower after a compression or bound.
So it sounds as if everyone agrees that higher bound #'s mean the damper compresses slower or in other words it more resistant to movement. But where we are confused is if higher rebound #'s mean it returns quicker or slower than lower #'s?
But now I may just be stating the obvious.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
That's correct - no one seems to understand which way it is. And there are fast people on both sides of the equation. I'm looking into it on other boards as well, to see if I can get a clear answer.
Because I definitely know how I'd want it set up in real life - quick rebound. Slow rebound will lead to 'pump down' of the dampers over a series of bumps, causing loss of ride height and all kinds of transient handling problems.
- 2,063
HI Duke
In answer to your earlier question, yes, I use the mix of Bound and Rebound settings to control the transient weight transfers to give me a stable platform. Because I tend to use T2 tyres, I don't want too much weight to transfer too quickly and overload my available grip coefficient so I smooth out the process as much as I can with the Dampers.
One thing I can say is that in GT3 the Damper tuning is much more useful for controlling cornering attitude and grip than it is in the real world - in fact I tend to use it as my primary 'dialling in' variable rather than using Spring Rates, Ride Height and Stabalisers (as I more properly should if I was setting up a real car).
I don't know if it helps (or even if it's pertinent to the discussion) but I think of the Damper tuning process in terms of the old cliche that Bound controls how the wheels move and Rebound controls how the body moves.
For a visual clue as to whether a High Rebound works to quell oscillation in the car body or not, try setting up a non-Rally car (with no adjustable downforce) for Smokey Mountain and you should see that with the Rebound on 10 the car body is relatively stable whereas if you dial it down then large jounces and trembles can be seen on the replay. This could just be a case of me seeing what I want to see tho'
!
Oh and finally, don't worry about the 'jacking down' effects Duke, as far as I can tell they haven't been modelled in the game (somewhat akin to the lack of proper 'bottoming out' too - for a simulation GT3's starting to sound not all 'Simmy' isn't it).
In answer to your earlier question, yes, I use the mix of Bound and Rebound settings to control the transient weight transfers to give me a stable platform. Because I tend to use T2 tyres, I don't want too much weight to transfer too quickly and overload my available grip coefficient so I smooth out the process as much as I can with the Dampers.
One thing I can say is that in GT3 the Damper tuning is much more useful for controlling cornering attitude and grip than it is in the real world - in fact I tend to use it as my primary 'dialling in' variable rather than using Spring Rates, Ride Height and Stabalisers (as I more properly should if I was setting up a real car).
I don't know if it helps (or even if it's pertinent to the discussion) but I think of the Damper tuning process in terms of the old cliche that Bound controls how the wheels move and Rebound controls how the body moves.
For a visual clue as to whether a High Rebound works to quell oscillation in the car body or not, try setting up a non-Rally car (with no adjustable downforce) for Smokey Mountain and you should see that with the Rebound on 10 the car body is relatively stable whereas if you dial it down then large jounces and trembles can be seen on the replay. This could just be a case of me seeing what I want to see tho'
!Oh and finally, don't worry about the 'jacking down' effects Duke, as far as I can tell they haven't been modelled in the game (somewhat akin to the lack of proper 'bottoming out' too - for a simulation GT3's starting to sound not all 'Simmy' isn't it
).- 105
Pardon me, folks, but if I read the description of the 'Rebound' setting right (while in the setting screen), the higher the 'Rebound' setting, the faster the absorbers return to position. I also remember that there is a comment in the description that says one would usually set the the 'Rebound' (a number of times) higher than the 'Bound' rate. I believe it's pretty clear.
- 10,081
- WFG9
My guess would be that the wheelbase has a good part to do with how effective a damper setting will be, but that's a guess, and not one I can put into more detailed words.
I am writing a tuning guide and the bound and rebound settings are giving me a bit of a headache.
I think I know what the settings do but there are now 3 explanations I am aware of on the net.
My view is this:
10 on bound means a stiff feeling which means the measurement is a measurement of resistance to bound or compression.
10 on rebound means a stiff feeling which means the measurement is of the rebound speed
In this thread it appeared that everyone agrees with the bound setting but not the rebound setting.
I have found elsewhere on the net though that both settings measure the speed at which the suspension moves so a high bound setting means the shocks compress quickly.
From testing I know that rebounds on 10 means the back end is a stiff as a board and does not roll. Noone can convince me otherwise.
But do we all agree that 10s on bound means the shocks/springs do not compress as easily as on a 1 ? I tend to believe this but have found it harder to prove on the GT3 road so to speak.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not talk about real life. I will never setup the suspension on a real car and that is a good thing. I want to know if my understanding is correct.
The Bound setting in GT3 is a measurement of resistance to bound
Rebound setting in GT3 is a measurement of rebound speed
I think I know what the settings do but there are now 3 explanations I am aware of on the net.
My view is this:
10 on bound means a stiff feeling which means the measurement is a measurement of resistance to bound or compression.
10 on rebound means a stiff feeling which means the measurement is of the rebound speed
In this thread it appeared that everyone agrees with the bound setting but not the rebound setting.
I have found elsewhere on the net though that both settings measure the speed at which the suspension moves so a high bound setting means the shocks compress quickly.
From testing I know that rebounds on 10 means the back end is a stiff as a board and does not roll. Noone can convince me otherwise.
But do we all agree that 10s on bound means the shocks/springs do not compress as easily as on a 1 ? I tend to believe this but have found it harder to prove on the GT3 road so to speak.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not talk about real life. I will never setup the suspension on a real car and that is a good thing. I want to know if my understanding is correct.
The Bound setting in GT3 is a measurement of resistance to bound
Rebound setting in GT3 is a measurement of rebound speed
