Brake Balance

[Robben]

Could someone explain to me what effects brake balance have and which situations is best to put forward, rear or leave central?

I understand that front brake balance will likely cause understeer as locked wheels can't turn as effectively (useless in FF cars) and that a rear balance will help this. I also understand that a front balance would help reduce the likelihood of tail happy cars slipping out... but a bit more detail and guidance would be appreciated.

Cheers

 

[kilesa4568]

Always been clueless on brake bias.👍

*Watches thread*

 

[banckzy]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/brake-balance.372919/

might give you what you're looking for

 

[Robben]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/brake-balance.372919/

might give you what you're looking for

Cheers bud, will have a read.

Edit: there is a lot about trail braking on there and I feel there is still something missing from the "general rule" that I'm looking for

 

[oldphart]

It comes down to preference and racing style. My mates run on one setting, me - I find that I run differently. I also adjust balance during the race, track dependant. I found settings for 4wd, ff, mid and fr. Find a test track, experiment, the clock will tell you what the setting up is - for you.
My settings would be rubbish for someone else.

 

[BSDShoes]

Thing is with front bias is it makes it much easier to trail brake with than neutral or rear bias.

Trail braking is when you start to gradually lift off the throttle as you enter a turn, which allows your front end to rotate you point it to while still applying brakes and then release at the top of the apex and throttle as soon as your car is straight enough.

 

[John Crellin]

Thing is with front bias is it makes it much easier to trail brake with than neutral or rear bias.

Trail braking is when you start to gradually lift off the throttle as you enter a turn, which allows your front end to rotate you point it to while still applying brakes and then release at the top of the apex and throttle as soon as your car is straight enough.

Do you mean rear bias? Because you want more rear bias for more effective steering under braking.

I usually start every car at +3 rear bias and change from there. If I notice this causes rear lock under heavy braking then I reduce the bias a notch or two. If I dont notice any instability then ill add more rear bias up to +5 unless I get that rear lock. This seems to work for me.

 

[DriftMethod]

I'm still experimenting with brake balance and appreciate everyone's input. I'm definitely not an expert on braking, so feel free to disagree, correct or just disregard my comments if they don't work for you.

I look at 3 things for brake balance:
1. Stopping distance - how late can I set my braking point.
2. Trail braking - more front balance to fix oversteer and rear balance to fix understeer.
3. Tire wear - If I expect excessive tire wear on the front I'll try to put braking towards rear in the early laps. Caution must be emphasized here since rear brake balance on worn tires can be a disaster.

My general rule is I'll move brake balance towards the rear until I either start over-rotating/losing rear grip on trail braking or I have to start braking earlier.

 

[John Crellin]

Cheers bud, will have a read.

Edit: there is a lot about trail braking on there and I feel there is still something missing from the "general rule" that I'm looking for

Always been clueless on brake bias.👍

*Watches thread*

let me give it a shot:
You only have so much grip in each tire. The grip is used to apply force ie braking, acceleration, or lateral traction(steering). Therefore, you have a limited amount of grip that you can partition into these activities.

Every car typically has forward bias for a variety of reasons but mainly due to the longitudinal load transfer during braking towards the front giving more traction to the front. The brake bias allows you to adjust this a little where you can move some of the bias around.

Now, with more forward bias you are dedicating more of the precious little grip you have in the front tires to braking which will reduce your braking distance but reduce the amount of grip you have available for steering. Therefore, Forward Bias = understeer and improved braking

Since rear tires are less involved in steering by adding more rear bias you will dedicate more rear tire grip to braking but sacrifice lateral stability as you turn because the grip that used to provide that lateral traction is now being used to brake. This frees up front tire traction for more steering input but sacrifices the braking power that the front tires offer. Overall, this causes your rear tires to lose more traction at sharp steering angles and provide oversteer character. Therefore Rear Bias = oversteer and longer braking distance.

Simply put, if you are undesteering while trailbraking add more rear bias. If you need more braking power or have a tendency to oversteer through trailbraking corners add more front bias.

 

[BSDShoes]

Do you mean rear bias? Because you want more rear bias for more effective steering under braking.

I usually start every car at +3 rear bias and change from there. If I notice this causes rear lock under heavy braking then I reduce the bias a notch or two. If I dont notice any instability then ill add more rear bias up to +5 unless I get that rear lock. This seems to work for me.

Rear bias seems too unstable for me, I only use rear bias on AWD and FF cars, FR and MR are better suited with front bias for me, that way I can brake faster and turn with control rather than fighting the unwanted rotation.

 

[John Crellin]

Rear bias seems too unstable for me, I only use rear bias on AWD and FF cars, FR and MR are better suited with front bias for me, that way I can brake faster and turn with control rather than fighting the unwanted rotation.

Yeah i find that it really is a matter of driving style. if you are a late-braker by nature then front bias all the way. if you like to brake early and through the corner then rear. But the car you drive matter a bunch too. I notice almost all the high powered N-class cars requiire more front bias but the GR cars need more rear.

I like to use a lot of rear because i like the slow braking which allows me to hit the correct corner entry speeds due to slower drop in speed. It has helped me be more consistent. Im a DS4 user and the brake button distance is so short that when i have more front bias i typically overshoot the braking and slow too much. rear bias helps me mitigate this

 

[inri]

front bias makes the car more stable when braking, like it wont slide as much. the alpine in todays daily race likes to slide under braking for example. rear bias increases oversteer under braking, put this to the rear to make a car turn in more easily at the risk of making it more easy to slide under braking. but some cars you can put it all the way to +5 and still have it be stable, ff and 4wd cars for example

 

[John Crellin]

front bias makes the car more stable when braking, like it wont slide as much.

this is only true up to the point where too much front bias will cause front brake lock and cause severe instability under heavy braking. This is dependent on the car or tune. I notice that the high power N-class cars need more front bias but tend to lock easily at high speed heavy braking. The LaFerrari for example needs front bias or you will never stop but too much and you lose it after a straight.

 

[inri]

i don't disagree but if you ask me front lock is a lot easier to correct than rear lock just cos of where it occurs in the corner. rear lock happens during turn in and takes half a second off your lap whether you want it to or not. with front lock you can just reapply the brakes and maybe go slightly deep on a corner

but generally i put bias to the rear in this game anyway, the racing cars are all pretty stable.

 

[John Crellin]

i don't disagree but if you ask me front lock is a lot easier to correct than rear lock just cos of where it occurs in the corner. rear lock happens during turn in and takes half a second off your lap whether you want it to or not. with front lock you can just reapply the brakes and maybe go slightly deep on a corner

Fair enough, I can agree with that

I personally prefer the feel of rear lock. Front lock tends to unsettle me in a straight line which I just do not like at all

 

[Robben]

Cheers guys, good answers and easy to understand 👍

 

[kilesa4568]

Great advice in here. I tend to always brake late so I'll experiment with front bias for longer than the tiny amount of time I've devoted to it before.

I did read an interesting quote from someone here who I think they won the recent Canadian event.. When he was asked what brake bias he used for hot lapping, he said it doesn't matter what you use or even if you like it. As long as it's faster. You only need to get it right once.

I know it's not really relevant for racing itself but that's stuck in my head now. Stability or speed...hmmm...

 

[bdz_apa]

Yes, it is heavily car dependent, and personal taste has its own effect indeed. I think it also may vary from track to track, for example in Tokyo I better go with more rear bias as those turns need just a touch of brake not heavy stopping, while in Monza you want to reduce speed as fast as possible

 

[kilesa4568]

As an update. I've had a couple of hours practice using 2 front bias on Gr3 cars and found a lot more stability. It's not the end of the story though as I think I need to adjust on the fly for trail braking. A WIP.

Back to the practice...

 

[Alpha Cipher]

As an update. I've had a couple of hours practice using 2 front bias on Gr3 cars and found a lot more stability. It's not the end of the story though as I think I need to adjust on the fly for trail braking. A WIP.

Back to the practice...

From my experience, learning how to trail brake on 2 front bias is much more manageable than adjusting them on the fly. I used to do that too, but most of the time I end up in the wall because of a) reduced focus on the actual driving and b) it's much harder to get used to a car that changes its driving dynamics

I don't have much to add to OP though, most of the people above already gave good advice on the general consensus about BB, and as they said, it really does come down to personal driving style

 

[BSDShoes]

As an update. I've had a couple of hours practice using 2 front bias on Gr3 cars and found a lot more stability. It's not the end of the story though as I think I need to adjust on the fly for trail braking. A WIP.

Back to the practice...

You can trail brake on -2 bias easily, after heavily applying brakes getting speed down far enough you can reduce brakes to 1/3-1/4 ways and drive through the corner and the car will go where you point it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Cheers bud, will have a read.

Edit: there is a lot about trail braking on there and I feel there is still something missing from the "general rule" that I'm looking for

Set it to +4

If the rear slides on slow corners, go to +3

You should see a lap time improvement.

 

[GTWelsh]

Which tyres do you want to overload the most. Overload = loss of grip. Front = understeer. Rear = oversteer.

Easiest way to think about it imo.

 

[kilesa4568]

You can trail brake on -2 bias easily, after heavily applying brakes getting speed down far enough you can reduce brakes to 1/3-1/4 ways and drive through the corner and the car will go where you point it.

Tried it like that and while I'm braking a bit sooner, It's nice and stable too.👍

Set it to +4

If the rear slides on slow corners, go to +3

You should see a lap time improvement.

Experimented with +3 but found them too strong and overwhelmed the fronts too much. I'm getting used to having a brake pedal though so I'll try it again in the future.👍

+2 to -2 seems to be my comfort zone so far but when I get a bit more used to the wheel, I'll try more extreme settings.

Good thread Robben. Nice one.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Experimented with +3 but found them too strong and overwhelmed the fronts too much. I'm getting used to having a brake pedal though so I'll try it again in the future.👍

+2 to -2 seems to be my comfort zone so far but when I get a bit more used to the wheel, I'll try more extreme settings.

Good thread Robben. Nice one.

Try +4 or even +5.

People in this thread are overthinking it a bit and comparing to real life. This is still a game.

Remember that the game's ABS is not a true ABS. There is still lock up. By going to the rear (+4 or +5) you remove any front locking and get full front ABS, which allows for precise steering while braking. The rears benefit from getting more anti-locking happening and will tend not to slide much at all, but they will rotate.

When I went to this method from what should be used (-2/+2), I gained 1 second or more per lap.

 

[TenderLoins]

Tried it like that and while I'm braking a bit sooner, It's nice and stable too.👍



Experimented with +3 but found them too strong and overwhelmed the fronts too much. I'm getting used to having a brake pedal though so I'll try it again in the future.👍

+2 to -2 seems to be my comfort zone so far but when I get a bit more used to the wheel, I'll try more extreme settings.

Good thread Robben. Nice one.

Pretty much the same for me. 0-2 for FR and for the Ferrari GR3 I use 0 or -1 depending on the track.

 

[Sean Renon]

Try +4 or even +5.

People in this thread are overthinking it a bit and comparing to real life. This is still a game.

Remember that the game's ABS is not a true ABS. There is still lock up. By going to the rear (+4 or +5) you remove any front locking and get full front ABS, which allows for precise steering while braking. The rears benefit from getting more anti-locking happening and will tend not to slide much at all, but they will rotate.

When I went to this method from what should be used (-2/+2), I gained 1 second or more per lap.

This might work for people who tend to use brakes either full on or full off, but a lot of people (me included) feather the brakes, or only apply 40-50% at times. I've found +1 on the 911 gr.3 is the best for me and it's basically the only gr.3 car I drive.

 

[Nando deBem]

Depends on the car. Hybrid Gr.1 cars, I usually leave it at 1 or 2 to the front. I think it helps recharging the battery. Battery is more important than the difference it would make in time if you set it to the rear. Gr.3, depends, but I find myself leaving it more to the rear. Even 4 or 5.

 

[Voodoovaj]

This might work for people who tend to use brakes either full on or full off, but a lot of people (me included) feather the brakes, or only apply 40-50% at times. I've found +1 on the 911 gr.3 is the best for me and it's basically the only gr.3 car I drive.

Oh ya, I do that too. Too each his own.

Depends on the car. Hybrid Gr.1 cars, I usually leave it at 1 or 2 to the front. I think it helps recharging the battery. Battery is more important than the difference it would make in time if you set it to the rear. Gr.3, depends, but I find myself leaving it more to the rear. Even 4 or 5.

Gah, I so wish they would make the time to properly implement HUD and feedback for this. I HATE having to guess.

 

[Nando deBem]

Oh ya, I do that too. Too each his own.



Gah, I so wish they would make the time to properly implement HUD and feedback for this. I HATE having to guess.

This is a proper complaint!
HUD is needed!