Brakes and Weight Transfer (w/o ASM)

[Rampant]

While I am pretty new to GT4, one thing that strikes me as odd is the way the brakes seem to work. Every time I touch the brakes (no matter how hard), it just plows into mad understeer. Before to drift in GT3, I would use a slight feint, then tap the brakes as the car was coming back around to kick out the rear. It worked great.

Yet, now, when I try to use the brake to get weight off the rear and onto the fronts, it seem to have the opposite effect. The fronts loose traction and plows ahead in whatever direction I am heading. No matter the speed, car angle or side g forces. Granted, I haven't tried may cars, but this is with an s15 on N1 tires (though it happens in all my cars and tires I have tried).

Am I doing something wrong? Is there anything I can do without reverting to using the understeer aid? Is this realistic in real life?

Sorry if this has been covered before. I read through the threads and did a search, but couldn't find anything directly related.

 

[uglyDRIFT]

i dunno....i seem to have this problem a lot too.... it SHOULD flip out the rear end if done right.... but ive tried almost everyway... try setting the ASM Understeer to 10 or whatever... it gets rid of a lot of the understeer that GT4 just loves.... but eventually try taking this off when you get more used to everything...its just more of a handicap thing i think...

 

[J.J.Snake]

i dunno....i seem to have this problem a lot too.... it SHOULD flip out the rear end if done right.... but ive tried almost everyway... try setting the ASM Understeer to 10 or whatever... it gets rid of a lot of the understeer that GT4 just loves.... but eventually try taking this off when you get more used to everything...its just more of a handicap thing i think...

Or you could use a brake balancer to set the rear brakes to be twice as strong as the front brakes or so... That way the rear will tend to want to lock up more, with TCS and ASM off.

 

[JaeTea]

Is this realistic in real life?

No its not and I can't figure out why the hell they have it like this.

If you turn in and stab the brakes the rear end should come out easily. Maybe they have all the cars set up with 50/50 brake distribution.

Its impossible for me to do any braking drifts because of this.

Also you'd want more braking force on the front to shift weight to the front of the car and break the rear end loose, not the other way around.

 

[Rampant]

I have tried it (ASM), and it helps a lot (which is odd it me, as I thought it was just supposed to limit traction "problems," not help create them). But, I am trying to avoid all uses of the aids if at all possible.

BTW, my brakes are set at 5/20, LSD 0 initial and 0 decel -- still not helping much at all.

 

[exhaust_note]

thats only true with ABS... the cars in the game don't simulate ABS... ive had plenty of real life experiance with ABS and non ABS cars...... the game is very life like..... the best way for you to test it out in real life is go to a parking lot with snow.... first in a non abs car go 35-40 and jam on the brakes as hard as you can and cut the wheel, you will continue going straight, then do it in an ABS car and it will turn in...

i guess just don't jump on the breaks as hard in the game...

 

[Swift]

thats only true with ABS... the cars in the game don't simulate ABS... ive had plenty of real life experiance with ABS and non ABS cars...... the game is very life like..... the best way for you to test it out in real life is go to a parking lot with snow.... first in a non abs car go 35-40 and jam on the brakes as hard as you can and cut the wheel, you will continue going straight, then do it in an ABS car and it will turn in...

i guess just don't jump on the breaks as hard in the game...

Yep, you've got to be MUCH more sensitive with both the brakes and the throttle in GT4. The weight transfer is much more pronounced, so throwing everything to the front really hard will give you understeer.

 

[Ryen49]

You can't mash the brakes then expect to go sideways you have to modulate the brakes and your streering to brake drift and not understeer.

 

[JaeTea]

thats only true with ABS... the cars in the game don't simulate ABS... ive had plenty of real life experiance with ABS and non ABS cars...... the game is very life like..... the best way for you to test it out in real life is go to a parking lot with snow.... first in a non abs car go 35-40 and jam on the brakes as hard as you can and cut the wheel, you will continue going straight, then do it in an ABS car and it will turn in....

You're not trying to lock the brakes. You're trying to transfer weight to the front which happens whether you have ABS or not.

 

[RoadHogGTP]

Hmmm, this sounds very difficult to perform on a DS2 but there is no way I'm paying for a DFP!

 

[BreakerOhio]

You can't mash the brakes then expect to go sideways you have to modulate the brakes and your streering to brake drift and not understeer.

👍
Well said.

 

[Imports4Life]

👍
Well said.

That's not what he's trying to do.... If you'd read, he's not trying to lock the brakes and turn to create oversteer. Hell, in GT4 you can barely even do that with the e-brake (soooo realistic... ). He's trying to create a slight feint to the outside, and when turning back in tap the brakes. He's not trying to lock them, just get a quick transfer of the weight to the front tires to take the load off the rear. Less load, less grip. That would equal oversteer. But with GT4's "uber-realistic" physics, as soon as you tap the brakes you either understeer or it straightens you out.

 

[BreakerOhio]

That's not what he's trying to do.... If you'd read, he's not trying to lock the brakes and turn to create oversteer. Hell, in GT4 you can barely even do that with the e-brake (soooo realistic... ). He's trying to create a slight feint to the outside, and when turning back in tap the brakes. He's not trying to lock them, just get a quick transfer of the weight to the front tires to take the load off the rear. Less load, less grip. That would equal oversteer. But with GT4's "uber-realistic" physics, as soon as you tap the brakes you either understeer or it straightens you out.

I can read what he's describing , and I will continue with my agreement with Ryen's statement. 👍 Ryen's description doesn't even talk about "locking the brakes" as you described, so I don't know where you are coming from there. The person posting is having troubling with the car understeering every time they say they brake after feint motion, Correct me If' I'm reading this wrong.
I don't believe anywhere in my comments or Ryens that we talk about locking the brakes.

What will help this person is PRACTICE and understanding physics. It sounds like you also are having difficulties understeering. The tip is right, try slowing down before fienting, accell off, fient out, cut back in, and at the same time do the brakign technique and when you hear/feel the weight shifting you need to control the steering (countersteer) and modulate the gas as stated before by Ryen.

 

[Ryen49]

Honestly, I love being a forum veteran and being attacked.....I love the new guys .. Next time understand what I posted..

 

[Sloth]

Well, first of all, entry speed is critical.

As Ryen says, you have to moderate the steering and throttle/brakes.

You can't just go all out on one or two of those aspects.


Brake sufficiently (but not excessively) and get that weight forward, then turn within the limits of the front tires while at the same time keeping brakes and steering balanced.

Meaning, if you're steering 25%, brake at around 65 or 70%.

Then once you notice the rear slipping out, jump on the throttle for a second and when the rear swings out, just balance with the throttle and steering.


Now. If you start to oversteer heavily, you'll want to touch the brake, and if the brake bias is towards the front, then you're only going to continue to oversteer, so you want more force in the back to slow down the lateral motion of the rear tires.

It should only take a light tap of the brakes, as anything more than that and your car will start to understeer, and the transition between understeer and oversteer is a slow one, so you can basically call off your drift when that happens.


With only a PS2 controller, your precision is pretty limited.

I would recommend getting a wheel.

Preferably one of those non-force feedback wheels that are hand built by small companies and some decent pedals. Make sure they're supported by GT4 before you buy though.

But yeah. It's up to you and your budget to figure out I guess.

 

[uglyDRIFT]

screw the veterans!!!! the new guys are takin over!!! muhahaahahahahaahaaaa

 

[Ryen49]

screw the veterans!!!! the new guys are takin over!!! muhahaahahahahaahaaaa

you wish. TEAM IDM for life. lol just joking around.

 

[white_rice]

all i have to say is read the back of the manual it tells you all about that kind of stuff
it even gives you a great analogy on this stuff

 

[Azuremen]

Ryen and Slurp are right.

I autocross, do some screw around rally, and practice driving on snow. Even tapping the brakes too much while turning in while result in understeer. You have to make sure you don't overwhelm the front tires. If you do, your drift is dead...

 

[Sloth]

Anyone who has the original Gran Turismo for PS1, I would suggest reading the reference manual that comes with it.

Absolutely indispensible information that had nothing to do with that game what-so-ever.

However, almost all of the information can be applied to GT4.

It even teaches you how to drift!

 

[Scaff]

Is this realistic in real life?

Yes it is realistic, and a greater understanding of the physics of car dynamics would help.

As has been suggested the guide that came with the original GT (and also GT2) is a great start.

I would also advise that you have a look at 'The Physics of Racing', a series of articles writen by a racer and physics PHD, looking at how all these elements work. Some of it is very indepth, but it is well explained and should help a lot.

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/

The main problem you are haveing has been described by a number of people, and I agree with what they are saying. Quite simply you are asking your front tyres to do to much, exceeding the slip angle and understeering.

Its a common mistake to belive you can just transfer wieght to the front and the raer tyres will slip; while this is true you also have to understand that the fronts are now braking, turning and have had weight transfered to them (although this is a secondard effect), they are also going to slip.

If the backs slip first you will have oversteer; if the front slip first you will have understeer and if they both slip together you will have a four wheel drift (and feel like a driving god).

 

[JaeTea]

I don't know where the hell this thread started talking about braking limits but we're not.

We talking about linear weight transfer.

Trail braking WILL put a properly set up drift car into an oversteer position.

 

[Scaff]

I don't know where the hell this thread started talking about braking limits but we're not.

We talking about linear weight transfer.

I'm not talking about brake limits, I'm talking about slip angle limits. Not the same thing.

 

[JaeTea]

I'm not talking about brake limits, I'm talking about slip angle limits. Not the same thing.

When you press the brakes the physics engine automatically tries to straighten out the car (the car will visually straigten itself) regardless of brake pressure, speed, balance, etc.

From my experience a simple application of the brakes will upset the rear enough to enable you to whip the steering wheel into the turn and initiate an oversteering situation.

If this is in fact possible in GT4 then I just suck!

 

[KSaiyu]

When you press the brakes the physics engine automatically tries to straighten out the car (the car will visually straigten itself) regardless of brake pressure, speed, balance, etc.

Of course it would, you're asking the front tyres to do two things - slow the car down AND change direction. In order to provoke the oversteer, you first must get the rear tyres slipping. So in other words, you WANT the fronts to still have grip, and not be overwhelmed by braking and steering at the same time. Since braking transfers weight off the rear, this is a valid way to take away grip from the rear tyres, but the problem is using it too much when you want to initiate the drift will cause the fronts to exceed their slip angles, meaning the rears have better cornering grip.

So I guess you have to keep practising on finding a) the right amount of brake involved during turning and b) the ORDER in how you initiate the drift (E.G. get the tyres slipping from a full lift of the throttle, then apply a little brake)

A good example of how little brake-turning you need is the overdrift websites videos http://overdrift.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

Of course, since I haven't really got into drifting yet, I'm just going on what I've picked up from "grip" driving, so I could be talking ****

 

[Scaff]

When you press the brakes the physics engine automatically tries to straighten out the car (the car will visually straigten itself) regardless of brake pressure, speed, balance, etc.

From my experience a simple application of the brakes will upset the rear enough to enable you to whip the steering wheel into the turn and initiate an oversteering situation.

If this is in fact possible in GT4 then I just suck!

I have both Prologue and the BMW Vitual Demo and in both brake modulation is possiable, I do however always use a wheel. For example the Viper will set the back end twitching even under straight hard braking.

IRL you can't simply apply the brakes and turn the wheel, you need to ensure that the slip angle of the front wheels is not exceeded, as I said in my last post, this will result in understeer and appears to be the cause of a lot of peoples problems.

Part on the issue is GT3, which was much less realistic in this regard, as a result people are still atempting this at speeds that are far to high, and exceeding the slip angle of the tyre.

I strongly recomend that you read the articles I linked to, or get hold of a copy of the book 'Speed Secrets - Profesional race driving techniques' as both explain this is great detail.

 

[KSaiyu]

Part on the issue is GT3, which was much less realistic in this regard, as a result people are still atempting this at speeds that are far to high, and exceeding the slip angle of the tyre.

I definetly agree on this, just try taking an RR car out and see how quick the rear end gives because of the more realistic centrifugal forces in GT4.

 

[JaeTea]

A good example of how little brake-turning you need is the overdrift websites videos http://overdrift.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

OK those helped ALOT! However they're not really initiating the drifts with braking drifts. But it helped me see how the end CAN come around on you with brake modulation after the drift is initiated.

I'm gonna practice some more using light braking and see if that helps. I might just be braking too hard on turn in.

I've been practicing at 2nd or 3rd geat to get my techiniques down.

Its weird becasue on the rally stages "braking drift" and trail-braking behave exactly how they should (especially with the Subarus).....but when you take a D1 car on a circuit....bleh... 👎

 

[Sloth]

If the backs slip first you will have oversteer; if the front slip first you will have understeer and if they both slip together you will have a four wheel drift (and feel like a driving god).

It's actually called neutral steer, but yeah, it does ^_^