British Holocaust denier Irving appears in court (AFP)

[Anchor Man]

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rs....com/s/afp/20060220/ts_afp/austriabritainwwiiAFP - British historian David Irving appeared in court at the start of his trial for denying the Holocaust, saying his views had changed since he denied the genocide in remarks 17 years ago.


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[Zrow]

Wait... his trial for denying the holocaust?

Freedom of speech, anyone?

 

[FoolKiller]

Wait... his trial for denying the holocaust?

Freedom of speech, anyone?

Apparently in Austria that is a crime. They must be a little sensitive.


Don't forget that many European countries are making unpolitically correct speech illegal as hate speech.

 

[Touring Mars]

Holocaust denial is illegal in several countries because it is deemed to be, at it's core, anti-Semitism i.e. racist.

David Irving is Britain's most prominent (or should I say) infamous 'historical revisionists', most notably his outspoken views on the holocaust.

But just as there is pseudoscience, there is also pseudo-history, and that is what Irving has been peddling for many years. Whereas scientific or historical 'facts' are based upon evidence, pseudoscience and pseudohistory, such as holocaust denial, are clearly not, and usually have a far more cynical agenda is their core - whether it be the furthering of religious dogma (in ID theory) or religious intolerance and racial hatred (Holocaust denial)...

It's a moot point whether or not Irving has a right to free speech, when he uses that very right to talk complete rubbish - ignoring the evidence (the facts) in favour of a pre-determined agenda, which is racially motivated.

Although I had no respect for Irving before, his respect rating went subzero this morning when I heard on the BBC News that he was preparing to plead guilty because, "New evidence had come to his attention that proved that the Holocaust did infact happen".... welcome to reality, Mr. Irving. The fact that his stance on holocaust denial was never actually based on evidence before means that his sudden appreciation of evidential value looks pretty lame.... not least because he was only saying it to reduce his sentence. Either way, he has been handed three years in jail for his troubles.

Just as the British courts have at last thrown the book at Abu Hamza for preaching his messages of racial hatred, the Austrian courts have made an example of Irving (albeit long overdue in both cases).... So, for Irving and his twisted take on the 20th Century, I guess it is Goodnight Vienna....

 

[a6m5]

This is kind of shocking. I had no idea that you could be tried in court for something like this.

 

[Famine]

While Irving is indeed a tool, it's a little harsh comparing him to Abu Hamza (real name - Mustafa Kamel...).

Irving is just a closed-minded prannock - which, as an aside, isn't a healthy position for a career historian. But I don't believe he's ever once used his position to call for the deaths of people - as distasteful as his remarks might seem.

 

[Touring Mars]

Yes, I suppose you have a point there - although the comparison between the length of time it has taken to bring them both to a halt remains. It is debatable, however, just what Irving was seeking to achieve by publishing his books, making speeches (even in countries where holocaust denial is illegal) and writing articles. Despite the fact that he could hardly be called a 'fire-brand' - or indeed rightly compared to the likes of Abu Hamza - his campaign of misinformation, especially in the context of racial intolerance, makes him just as guilty (in my opinion) of inciting hatred/intolerance, albeit in a more insidious and less overt (and indeed, less violent) manner...

( real name - Mustafa Kamel...)

You couldn't make this stuff up...!

had no idea that you could be tried in court for something like this.

In Austria you can.... shame no-one told him that!

 

[Flame-returns]

I see two sides to this argument and I loathe each side with a passion. I spent the last five minutes thinking about this matter (I also spilled coffee into my lap but I dont really think that concerns this thread unless someone wants to make a witty comment about Irving singing his bollocks on the flames of intolerance).

My conclusion is this: Irving is evidently stupid but then again if blatent stupidity was a crime I would have to perform a citizens arrest on half of my neighbours. I think what this man needs is education not prison, the supreme mental court of Judge F-R therfore sentances Irving to 26 hours community service (I think that that's about the total run time of "The World at War").

 

[Poverty]

So no wonder the muslims complain. Talk about double standards.

If this is ok its ok for the muslims to be just as outraged.

 

[ExigeEvan]

In Austria you can.... shame no-one told him that!

Oh but they did. Who in their right mind goes back to a country they are not a resident of to give a lecture to a student fraternity and face a possible 10 years in prison?

All this added to his 'views' makes this guy is a complete plank.

 

[Flame-returns]

So no wonder the muslims complain. Talk about double standards.

If this is ok its ok for the muslims to be just as outraged.

But the thing is in this case the Jewish population is not at all outraged, in fact Jeff Barak editor of the Jewish Chronicle is quoted as saying "it's actually quite a severe sentence" and saying that such a sentence has a chance of turing Irving "into a martyr for the far right."

Many Rabbis and other senior members of the Jewish community have said similar things. It seems clear to me that overall the Jewish community does not want his head on a stick and that this punishment has been imposed entriely by the Jury, presumably bacause they dont like Irving. To be honest if I was in the posistion of the Jury I would do the exact same thing but I'm sure a legal system isn't supposed to work like that.

 

[Poverty]

Yes but what are 95% of all the muslime leaders saying. They are saying that theyre religion is peaceful and most the people are peaceful except for a few.

The muslims extremist are no different from the jewish extremist the neo nazis and our own right wingers such as the BNP.

 

[Sphinx]

Law or not, it's still a double standard

 

[Flame-returns]

Yes but what are 95% of all the muslime leaders saying. They are saying that theyre religion is peaceful and most the people are peaceful except for a few.

The muslims extremist are no different from the jewish extremist the neo nazis and our own right wingers such as the BNP.

Your earlier post stated that Muslims had a right to feel just as outraged over the cartoons as the Jews are about this Irving guy, since the Jewish community is not in the least bit outraged the Muslim community should not be outraged either, right?

Wrong, the picture coming in on my IslamCam say that Muslims, albeit a small amount of extremists, are most certainly outraged and are stoning police and burning down embassies as a way of peaceful protest.

 

[Poverty]

I would be outraged too if I was a muslim. What you have to remeber is that the man in question said those things about the holocaust years and years and years ago. Most the controversy is gone.

 

[FoolKiller]

Wow, I wasn't aware that freedom of speech could be defined so differently.

In America Freedom of speech = Say what you want so long as you don't incite violence.

In Austria Freedom of Speech = Say what you want but don't be racist.

I mean I can go around saying the holocaust didn't happen, George Bush knocked down the World Trade Center, and that everyone who didn't have a certain skin/hair/eye color are no better than dogs so long as I didn't try to make people start rioting and attacking each other.

Apparently some places have a "don't be a tool" law.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Irving could'nt have been so absolutely stupid as to lecture on Holocaust Denial in the State that has the strictest of such penalties. He's planning to get banged up on special status with a laptop, writing the bloody Kampf!

They need that law in Austria to re-assure educational boards etc. I smell opportunism in the cross application!