Calling all Audiophiles: Do I *really* need a Surround amp?XBOne

[Speedster911]

First, let me describe my current setup (I know, it isn't the best but works):

HDMI going to the back of my HDTV, pair of high quality Stereo RCA jacks going to the Audio in jacks on my amp, which is essentially a 5.1 system, but stupid thing has no HDMI or coaxial in jacks to get Surround sound from external components/consoles. It only plays 5.1 and DTS through the built-in DVD player (serves me right for not doing my research and picking it up in a hurry).

So long story short, I can only get stereo sound in games and movies. I've set up my speakers in a surround field - front left/right, rear left/right and a subbie in the corner. The center speaker outputs no sound at all. I have two options either to use the "link up" feature in order to have a stereo surround field or use the "link surr" feature which takes it further and tries to mimic fake surround sound through stereo channels, which sort of improves clarity in games/movies as it widens the sound field. Particularly in Forza, I notice better reverb and other cars around me.

In addition, I've another subbie and satellite speakers which I've connected to the headphones in jack on my TV. So all in all, it's an 8-speaker setup (2 midrange, 4 satellites and 2 subs).

I've tried a variety of games with the Dolby Atmost w/headphones setting both on my budget earbuds and the speaker system as well and, well, it's a mixed bag so to speak. On one hand, cars in Forza sound really life-like, on the other, when I'm surrounded by a pack, it can get muddied up. In MEA, sometimes the surround field seems to muddy up the sounds, at times I feel it enhances the soundstage. On my $5 earbuds alone, however, the sound is downright amazing when set to Windows Sonic or Dolby Atmos.

I also tried setting HDMI output to 5.1/7.1 (I know, makes no difference at all and only makes the signal muddy) and I must admit the exhausts sounds on cars sounded really detailed and real (Aventador... whaat!?.... that sounds real!!). Unfortunately, as you can imagine, certain effects were noticeably muted or gone altogether.

Now that we have that out of the way (thanks for reading ), the bottom line is, I don't have much of a budget at the moment and am rather content with my current set up, but, I'm really curious to know if I really need a good quality surround amp and speakers, like a 7.1 Dolby Atmos level setup. In addition to the directional ques of course, does true digital surround sound make the effects in games sound less compressed and better quality?

For example, in a racing game like Forza or DR, will the cars necessarily sound more realistic and life-like? Or in a shooter, will I be able to hear and feel more detail-richness in say, gunshots, dialogue, ambient effects and explosions? I know nothing compares to watching a movie at the cinema that has proper surround sound but I wonder if it is really needed in games. I don't do MP much, so hearing footsteps approaching me or cars creeping up behind me is not important. I'm only concerned with quality and how true surround sound changes the tone and pitch of sound effects in a game. That IS really important to me, because you all probably know by now what a sound nut I am when it comes to car/racing games.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to read this big wall of text. I'm not sure if I want to upgrade to Surround sound or if there even is a real need to do so - the best surround amps cost upwards of $1500. Heck, even the above average ones cost close to or above $500.


@Ialyrn
@mrPetros
@RandomCarGuy17
@TheCrazySwede
@prisonermonkeys
@McLaren
@Fat Tyre
@yabiggoose
@The Stig Farmer
@ImaRobot
@Imari
@GranTurismo guy
@Scaff
@UKMikey

Sorry, if I didn't tag you. These are only the names I could recall off the top of my head. But your opinions and/or suggestions are equally welcome. Thanks!

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Well I'm quite flattered to be considered

To be honest I only use the tv speaker. I have speakers in my room I sometimes wirelessly connect to the TV which does sound great, but it sounds like your current setup is beyond that. Upgrading the sound will always be good imo, guess its just down to how much you're willing to pay to step it up. Best of luck deciding

 

[Jawehawk]

Question. Is your receiver, speakers and headphones Dolby Atmos capable? I ask because I found it odd that you write that you tried Atmos with your budget earphones, but real Atmos requires both an Atmos capable receiver as well as speakers designed for Atmos in the first place. I vaguely recall something about the XBOX becoming Atmos capable via an update, but that you'd get any benefit out of that when using budget earphones sounds weird, as last I checked, Atmos equipment isn't cheap. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding.

The specific game will also need to have been made with Atmos support in order for it to be of any real value. I don't imagine simulated Atmos to be any good.

As for real surround sound for games, I've found it to be a mixed bag. Some games have trouble accurately representing distance between the in-game audio source and the player avatar, which, depending on your speaker setup, can result in voices in particular not being as loud and clear as they ought to be. Additionally, the dynamic nature of games don't often utilise the side and rear speakers as well as they should.

Games like The Last of Us and Uncharted 4 are among the best sounding games ever made, but even they don't benefit massively from surround, although they do have their moments. Playing a game like Battlefront with surround sound definitely adds to the immersion.

In terms of racing games, I don't think surround sound has a lot of value. Depending on the game, you might be able to pick up where other cars are relative to you, but as far as I can remember, I've never played a game where a car that has the engine situated behind the driver would make that immediately noticeable by using the side/rear speakers.

Movies remain the most impressive source for well utilized surround sound in my opinion, but some games do use it very well.

 

[Scaff]

I would agree with pretty much all @Jawehawk has said above.

What may also be worth considering is a set of surround sound headphones.

I use a set of turtle beach 520s, which use DTS headphone and does a pretty good job of both surround sound placement, blend and a good sense of space.

I initially got them to use while gaming at night, particularly with the rig and was actually impressed with how good they are for gaming.

Reciever wise, being honest with you some good entry level stuff certainly does exist as long as you stick to separates.

 

[Speedster911]

Well I'm quite flattered to be considered

To be honest I only use the tv speaker. I have speakers in my room I sometimes wirelessly connect to the TV which does sound great, but it sounds like your current setup is beyond that. Upgrading the sound will always be good imo, guess its just down to how much you're willing to pay to step it up. Best of luck deciding

Sure, anytime!

TV speakers.. good God man! As you said, I suppose it's how much one is willing to pay, and to me personally, it just seems like a waste throwing away my perfectly good speakers and amp just to get a new system for the sake of proper surround sound. Thanks for your two though. 👍

Question. Is your receiver, speakers and headphones Dolby Atmos capable? I ask because I found it odd that you write that you tried Atmos with your budget earphones, but real Atmos requires both an Atmos capable receiver as well as speakers designed for Atmos in the first place. I vaguely recall something about the XBOX becoming Atmos capable via an update, but that you'd get any benefit out of that when using budget earphones sounds weird, as last I checked, Atmos equipment isn't cheap. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding.

The specific game will also need to have been made with Atmos support in order for it to be of any real value. I don't imagine simulated Atmos to be any good.

As for real surround sound for games, I've found it to be a mixed bag. Some games have trouble accurately representing distance between the in-game audio source and the player avatar, which, depending on your speaker setup, can result in voices in particular not being as loud and clear as they ought to be. Additionally, the dynamic nature of games don't often utilise the side and rear speakers as well as they should.

Games like The Last of Us and Uncharted 4 are among the best sounding games ever made, but even they don't benefit massively from surround, although they do have their moments. Playing a game like Battlefront with surround sound definitely adds to the immersion.

In terms of racing games, I don't think surround sound has a lot of value. Depending on the game, you might be able to pick up where other cars are relative to you, but as far as I can remember, I've never played a game where a car that has the engine situated behind the driver would make that immediately noticeable by using the side/rear speakers.

Movies remain the most impressive source for well utilized surround sound in my opinion, but some games do use it very well.

Ah, I should have clarified - I tried the virtual Atmos option that MS introduced with one of their more recent updates, the one that's called "Dolby Atmos for headphones" (it will work with any standard pair of stereo earbuds/headset). I've got to say, on a pair of $5 earbuds, the sound is quite literally insane. My earphones already sounded pretty good while listening to music on my portable mp3 player, but I didn't know this little sucker could pack such a punch and dynamic range on games and movies.. !

No, my receiver does not have Dolby Atmos, and neither do my earbuds. To get true Atmos out of amp/speakers, you do need a compatable receiver as there is now an Atmos option through Bitstream Out. However, using the DA w/headphones option (your external speakers/amp will output the same format as your headset while it is connected to your pad), I was able to experience some phenomenal virtual Dolby Atmos sound in Forza 6 - cars sounding more lifelike, a slight boost in bass and reverb, but that's it. I didn't really detect directional audio naturally, and sometimes the sounds did muddy up a little.

The thing that irks me even to this day is that my friggin amp does support DTS and Dolby Digital as well as Pro Logic II, but ONLY through the built-in DVD player , and while I did use it initially to listen to audio CDs and DVD movies, I remember the sound being nothing short of phenomenal. Anyhoo... glad I kept it as even in Stereo, I get great mileage from it in shooters and racing games.

All in all, I appreciate your feedback.

I would agree with pretty much all @Jawehawk has said above.

What may also be worth considering is a set of surround sound headphones.

I use a set of turtle beach 520s, which use DTS headphone and does a pretty good job of both surround sound placement, blend and a good sense of space.

I initially got them to use while gaming at night, particularly with the rig and was actually impressed with how good they are for gaming.

Reciever wise, being honest with you some good entry level stuff certainly does exist as long as you stick to separates.

Ah, I did consider Surround headphones. However, based on research I've done, it is said that these headsets are never really truly 7.1 and virtualize surround sound even if you get a mixamp. I do not know to what degree that's actually true, and some audiophiles have gone as far as to say that it will never be comparable to surround sound coming out of seperate speakers.

Still, I have kept surround headsets as an option - but then again, my earbuds already do a great job of virtual surround and the external speakers which provide a pretty good dynamic range on the mids, highs and lows.

Thanks for your opinion Scaff!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Honestly, I have no idea why I was tagged here. Most of the opening post might as well be in Greek for all that I understood it.

I will say this, though: I use a soundbar, which gives great sound quality and is very affordable.

 

[UKMikey]

I have a surround amp but only have room for a couple of speakers. (Acoustic Research AR10s)

 

[Jawehawk]

I don't know how many games on the XBOX One are mastered in uncompressed audio (LPCM) format, but from experience, I can assure you that games that support that format offer a genuine reason to upgrade from a receiver that doesn't support LPCM pass through, to one that does. Part of the reason The Last of Us and the Uncharted games sound as good as they do, is the use of uncompressed audio. Ideally, games would support lossless compression in the form of DTS HD Master and Dolby True HD, but I've yet to ever see a game do this, possibly because of the extra processing power needed to unpack and work the increase in files compared to lossy compression. Thus, LPCM seems to be the only option for HD sound in games.

Not many games on the PS3 were mastered in LPCM, and I haven't been able to find a list of PS4 or XBOX One games that are mastered in the format, but with the One using Blu-Ray discs for games, I'd be surprised if there weren't at least some games taking advantage of the format (The 360's use of DVD's for games didn't allow enough space for uncompressed audio). It's definitely a feature worth keeping in mind when considering upgrading your system.

On the topic of surround headsets, I have to agree that they cannot hope to do surround sound as well as a good speaker setup. That said, they can still sound really good, and are both easier to setup and cheaper to acquire. They also have no problem in giving the user a general sense of space and direction, even if it isn't quite as convincing as a genuine surround sound setup.


I doubt we'll see any games mastered in Atmos for a very long time, if ever, so unless you like movies a lot, and have the money to acquire all the Atmos specific equipment, as well as a room specifically dedicated to the purpose of being a home theater, I wouldn't worry too much about a receiver supporting the format. The idea of creating an actual 3D sound space sounds very compelling, but I think the requirements made on the room and the equipment makes Atmos very limited value for the conventional consumer. I've not had the pleasure of listening to it myself, so I can't say just how much of an upgrade it is over the now standard lossless or uncompressed formats.

Personally, I was very happy when I upgraded from my Sony home theater in a box setup to my current setup of a Marantz NR1605 receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers. The speakers are budget ones, but still manage to produce impressive sound, better than the old ones, and infinitely better than my TV's speakers. When transitioning from my old setup to my new ones, I had a day of playing PS4 with just the TV speakers, and I couldn't stand it. That's the thing about audio. Something can sound really good to you, but once you've tried better, it becomes hard to go back.

So to summarize. Even if the surround sound doesn't always use the side/rear speakers in games as much as I'd like, the combination of when it does use them, along with support for newer and better audio formats by a quality standalone receiver, makes the upgrade well worth it IMO.

 

[Speedster911]

Honestly, I have no idea why I was tagged here. Most of the opening post might as well be in Greek for all that I understood it.

I will say this, though: I use a soundbar, which gives great sound quality and is very affordable.

Well...I was just tagging anybody that comes came to mind! Your GTP tag is an easy one to remember.

Ah, a soundbar.. now how good are these at replicating high-end digital surround sound? Practically as good as a conventional 5.1/7.1 system you'd say? And, are they significantly less costly to acquire?

I have a surround amp but only have room for a couple of speakers. (Acoustic Research AR10s)

In your experience, how much of a difference or jump in quality does it make, say, going from a reasonably good stereo amp/speakers to a fully digital surround sound system? For instance, will the cars in Forza necessarily more "real"? Only speaking quality and depth wise, not directional ques or immersion.

I don't know how many games on the XBOX One are mastered in uncompressed audio (LPCM) format, but from experience, I can assure you that games that support that format offer a genuine reason to upgrade from a receiver that doesn't support LPCM pass through, to one that does. Part of the reason The Last of Us and the Uncharted games sound as good as they do, is the use of uncompressed audio. Ideally, games would support lossless compression in the form of DTS HD Master and Dolby True HD, but I've yet to ever see a game do this, possibly because of the extra processing power needed to unpack and work the increase in files compared to lossy compression. Thus, LPCM seems to be the only option for HD sound in games.

Right, what's LPCM pass-through? Is that what we call on the Xbox "Bitstream Out"? I.e. Dolby Digital/DTS that's gotten through an optical/coaxial cable? Or are we just talking HDMI 5.1/7.1?

Well, I'm focused on X-One games only for now and do sometimes wonder how games like Tomb Raider, GoW, Batman or Forza sound on a high end surround amp. I switched my HDMI to 5.1 even though I know it doesn't support that and the Aventador in FM6 sounded less whiny and had that real supercar exhaust sound, reminiscent of all the YT vids I've seen. Unfortunately, the badly done cars still sounded just as bad.

To my knowledge, I do not believe any game on the current Xbox One supports DTS or Dolby True HD; most use DD as a standard and I'm sure it's the regular 5.1 format (somebody correct me on that, otherwise). So from the sound of it, I think I should be okay for now with a stereo amp and speakers. I mean, it's nothing to complain about really - the highs are crisp, the mids loud and clear, and the lows packing 'boomy' as well as 'punchy' bass.

Not many games on the PS3 were mastered in LPCM, and I haven't been able to find a list of PS4 or XBOX One games that are mastered in the format, but with the One using Blu-Ray discs for games, I'd be surprised if there weren't at least some games taking advantage of the format (The 360's use of DVD's for games didn't allow enough space for uncompressed audio). It's definitely a feature worth keeping in mind when considering upgrading your system.

Hmm, I see. Although is it fair to say that ALL games are fully utilizing the standard Dolby Digital 5.1 format in some way or the other?

On the topic of surround headsets, I have to agree that they cannot hope to do surround sound as well as a good speaker setup. That said, they can still sound really good, and are both easier to setup and cheaper to acquire. They also have no problem in giving the user a general sense of space and direction, even if it isn't quite as convincing as a genuine surround sound setup.

I may have Turtlebeach on my radar if I ever decide to get phones but I I'm not sure if they're going to give me fatigue after a while as I wear specs. That can get annoying.

I doubt we'll see any games mastered in Atmos for a very long time, if ever, so unless you like movies a lot, and have the money to acquire all the Atmos specific equipment, as well as a room specifically dedicated to the purpose of being a home theater, I wouldn't worry too much about a receiver supporting the format. The idea of creating an actual 3D sound space sounds very compelling, but I think the requirements made on the room and the equipment makes Atmos very limited value for the conventional consumer. I've not had the pleasure of listening to it myself, so I can't say just how much of an upgrade it is over the now standard lossless or uncompressed formats.

Well, I wasn't really considering getting an Atmos system - the price and of course making changes to the room and I have no intention of turning it into a full-fledged mini movie hall. Perhaps the Xbox-X has all the extra oomph to deliver true Atmos HD sound while keeping the 4K/60 fps benchmark, which quite frankly speaking, I don't see a lot of games doing. A bit off-topic but Crackdown 3 and Destiny 2 are 30 fps/4K on the One-X.

Personally, I was very happy when I upgraded from my Sony home theater in a box setup to my current setup of a Marantz NR1605 receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers. The speakers are budget ones, but still manage to produce impressive sound, better than the old ones, and infinitely better than my TV's speakers. When transitioning from my old setup to my new ones, I had a day of playing PS4 with just the TV speakers, and I couldn't stand it. That's the thing about audio. Something can sound really good to you, but once you've tried better, it becomes hard to go back.

So to summarize. Even if the surround sound doesn't always use the side/rear speakers in games as much as I'd like, the combination of when it does use them, along with support for newer and better audio formats by a quality standalone receiver, makes the upgrade well worth it IMO.

Your new receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers - is this a fully surround system or just an amp with stereo speakers? Sorry, it sounds like a silly question but I'm a bit of a noob at this. As for TV speakers, I ditched those wayyy back in the SNES days and haven't looked back since. Ah, gooood times.

I'm still on the fence about the upgrade though as I don't know how much better cars/racing soundstage, for example, might sound on a stereo amp and speakers versus a proper surround system. If a surround amp makes the cars in a flagship racing title like Forza sound more life-like and detail-rich, then I suppose there's a genuine reason to upgrade at some point. As you can imagine, my focus mostly is on racing games at the moment and that's probably the only thing that motivates me to consider upgrading.

I thank you very much for the feedback. Great insights here. 👍

 

[Jawehawk]

Right, what's LPCM pass-through? Is that what we call on the Xbox "Bitstream Out"? I.e. Dolby Digital/DTS that's gotten through an optical/coaxial cable? Or are we just talking HDMI 5.1/7.1?

Well, I'm focused on X-One games only for now and do sometimes wonder how games like Tomb Raider, GoW, Batman or Forza sound on a high end surround amp. I switched my HDMI to 5.1 even though I know it doesn't support that and the Aventador in FM6 sounded less whiny and had that real supercar exhaust sound, reminiscent of all the YT vids I've seen. Unfortunately, the badly done cars still sounded just as bad.

To my knowledge, I do not believe any game on the current Xbox One supports DTS or Dolby True HD; most use DD as a standard and I'm sure it's the regular 5.1 format (somebody correct me on that, otherwise). So from the sound of it, I think I should be okay for now with a stereo amp and speakers. I mean, it's nothing to complain about really - the highs are crisp, the mids loud and clear, and the lows packing 'boomy' as well as 'punchy' bass.

LPCM means that your player, in this case, your XBOX One, does the decoding, and then sends the audio through your receiver and into the speakers. Bitstream, on the other hand, means that your player sends the audio to your receiver for it to decode. Uncompressed audio is raw audio data, and while lossless compression methods, such as those used in DTS HD Master and Dolby TrueHD, should sound identical to completely uncompressed audio, that doesn't help us any when games don't seem to be mastered in those lossless formats. As such, we want a receiver that is capable of receiving an uncompressed signal, so as to enjoy the games that at least support LPCM audio.

Bitstreaming uncompressed audio should be fine too, but again, the receiver needs to be capable of receiving and decoding the format, and not all are. On another note, if you use an optical cable, you'll only be able to transmit a 2 channel uncompressed signal, where as HDMI supports 8 (if I recall correctly) channels.

Hmm, I see. Although is it fair to say that ALL games are fully utilizing the standard Dolby Digital 5.1 format in some way or the other?

I don't recall playing any games on console that don't support either 5.1 Dolby or 5.1 DTS. If there are any, I reckon they'd be indie titles.

Your new receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers - is this a fully surround system or just an amp with stereo speakers? Sorry, it sounds like a silly question but I'm a bit of a noob at this. As for TV speakers, I ditched those wayyy back in the SNES days and haven't looked back since. Ah, gooood times.

I'm still on the fence about the upgrade though as I don't know how much better cars/racing soundstage, for example, might sound on a stereo amp and speakers versus a proper surround system. If a surround amp makes the cars in a flagship racing title like Forza sound more life-like and detail-rich, then I suppose there's a genuine reason to upgrade at some point. As you can imagine, my focus mostly is on racing games at the moment and that's probably the only thing that motivates me to consider upgrading.

I thank you very much for the feedback. Great insights here. 👍

They're not so new anymore. Bought them almost two and a half years ago

It is a 5.1 system, and unlike the home theater in a box sets, you can replace any of the individual speakers and so on with ones of a different make or model. The speakers were bundled together for a very budget friendly price, and I've really been very impressed with their sound quality. Of course, once I get a house some day, I'll upgrade to bigger speakers

But as I said earlier, if racing games are your main focus, then I don't think upgrading is really worth it. Surround sound is of limited value in racing games, and I don't know of any racing games that are mastered in uncompressed audio. Then again, I don't own an XBOX, and so, I am not up to date on what audio format the XBOX One games are usually mastered in.

 

[Speedster911]

LPCM means that your player, in this case, your XBOX One, does the decoding, and then sends the audio through your receiver and into the speakers. Bitstream, on the other hand, means that your player sends the audio to your receiver for it to decode. Uncompressed audio is raw audio data, and while lossless compression methods, such as those used in DTS HD Master and Dolby TrueHD, should sound identical to completely uncompressed audio, that doesn't help us any when games don't seem to be mastered in those lossless formats. As such, we want a receiver that is capable of receiving an uncompressed signal, so as to enjoy the games that at least support LPCM audio.

Bitstreaming uncompressed audio should be fine too, but again, the receiver needs to be capable of receiving and decoding the format, and not all are. On another note, if you use an optical cable, you'll only be able to transmit a 2 channel uncompressed signal, where as HDMI supports 8 (if I recall correctly) channels.




I don't recall playing any games on console that don't support either 5.1 Dolby or 5.1 DTS. If there are any, I reckon they'd be indie titles.




They're not so new anymore. Bought them almost two and a half years ago

It is a 5.1 system, and unlike the home theater in a box sets, you can replace any of the individual speakers and so on with ones of a different make or model. The speakers were bundled together for a very budget friendly price, and I've really been very impressed with their sound quality. Of course, once I get a house some day, I'll upgrade to bigger speakers

But as I said earlier, if racing games are your main focus, then I don't think upgrading is really worth it. Surround sound is of limited value in racing games, and I don't know of any racing games that are mastered in uncompressed audio. Then again, I don't own an XBOX, and so, I am not up to date on what audio format the XBOX One games are usually mastered in.

I think I should bookmark this thread for future reference. 👍

Your very first comment regarding LPCM - this tells me that it's better to have game audio through HDMI, is that right? I just need to make sure I understand this correctly: in order to enjoy 100% lossless, uncompressed surround audio (as the developer intended), would it be better to have the console connected to the TV via HDMI, and then having an HDMI from the TV going to the receiver, or should one use the optical port on the console to go directly into the Optical IN port on the receiver? I'm just not sure which would yield better results. I know for sure that DTS and Dolby Atmos can only be used through the Bitstream Out option in the console's Audio settings.

Some more questions - how do I know if the receiver I'm picking up is capable of receiving/decoding the format on a 1:1 basis? And why would an optical cable only transmit 2-channel audio? Isn't Optical used for DD, DTS and D.Atmos? Again, I'm led to believe that HDMI uncompressed 5.1/7.1 is almost always better than Bitstream Out/Optical.

I think I might be able to get a surround amp only as the speakers are already there. All I need to do is match the output and "ohms", correct? Though I'm not sure I will be able to find an amp that can seamless connect with the pins/input cables on my speakers.

One last question: how do I know if a game is LPCM compatible? Should I be looking for a logo on the box art/game cover?

 

[Jawehawk]

I think I should bookmark this thread for future reference. 👍

Your very first comment regarding LPCM - this tells me that it's better to have game audio through HDMI, is that right? I just need to make sure I understand this correctly: in order to enjoy 100% lossless, uncompressed surround audio (as the developer intended), would it be better to have the console connected to the TV via HDMI, and then having an HDMI from the TV going to the receiver, or should one use the optical port on the console to go directly into the Optical IN port on the receiver? I'm just not sure which would yield better results. I know for sure that DTS and Dolby Atmos can only be used through the Bitstream Out option in the console's Audio settings.

Some more questions - how do I know if the receiver I'm picking up is capable of receiving/decoding the format on a 1:1 basis? And why would an optical cable only transmit 2-channel audio? Isn't Optical used for DD, DTS and D.Atmos? Again, I'm led to believe that HDMI uncompressed 5.1/7.1 is almost always better than Bitstream Out/Optical.

I think I might be able to get a surround amp only as the speakers are already there. All I need to do is match the output and "ohms", correct? Though I'm not sure I will be able to find an amp that can seamless connect with the pins/input cables on my speakers.

One last question: how do I know if a game is LPCM compatible? Should I be looking for a logo on the box art/game cover?

HDMI is definitely the way to go. It supports all the common audio formats, and just about all modern equipment have HDMI ports. Dedicated receivers meant for home theaters typically have en HDMI Out port meant specifically for the connection to the display unit (TV or projector), followed by any number of HDMI In ports, which are meant for your consoles, music players and so on. As such, your receiver becomes the main hub for all your media devices. You can probably hook up the console to the TV directly, and then transmit the signal through the TV and into a receiver, but I don't have any personal experience with this. With my old sound setup, I had it hooked up via an optical cable to my PS3 and 4.

Optical cables support standard 5.1 Dolby and DTS, but not the lossless HD formats. it also supports 2 channel LCPM, but want any more channels than that, and you'll have to go with an HDMI. Simply put, HDMI is better. Seeing as we're on the topic of cables, I also want to stress not to go out buying one of the expensive HDMI cables believing it to be of better quality. It isn't. HDMI cables all adhere to an industry standard, so a 20 dollar HDMI cable should ensure the exact same audio and visual quality as one that costs 50 dollars. I hesitate to say that this applies to every type of cable out there, but for the most part, the fancy and expensive ones usually don't offer any better quality. It's just sales tricks.

Bit streaming shouldn't produce worse sound than LPCM by default, although there are cases where it does. For instance, the pre slim model PS3's didn't support the bit streaming of lossless audio formats. So if I wanted to enjoy the Dolby TrueHD track on a Blu-Ray, I needed to choose LPCM from the PS3's setting. Choosing bit streaming would result in the audio being down sampled to lossy DTS or Dolby. This was corrected with the PS3 slim which was capable of bit streaming HD audio formats. With both the Xbox One and PS4, the audio should sound the same regardless of whether you choose bit stream or LPCM.

As for how you'll know, just check the specifications sheets for the given receiver. It'll list the supported formats, both in terms of what it can decode itself, but also what it can receive from other sources. Most standalone receivers made today support LPCM and the various Dolby and DTS formats. The only modern formats that might not be supported are Dolby Atmos, and DTS X (the competitor to Atmos), as they probably still command a premium.

If your speakers came with your DVD player as one set, then I'm not sure you'll be able to connect them to anything but that player. Sets like that aren't really build around the idea of customization. But I'm afraid that is beyond my knowledge. I suspect that @TB might be able to share more info on these matters, as he's way more knowledgeable about these things than I am.

 

[TB]

Note that I don't have an XBox so some of my ramblings might not apply.

On another note, if you use an optical cable, you'll only be able to transmit a 2 channel uncompressed signal, where as HDMI supports 8 (if I recall correctly) channels.

On the PS3, RCA (red/white) could only output 2 channel, optical could output up to 5.1 and HDMI 7.1.

it's better to have game audio through HDMI, is that right?

Whenever possible!

would it be better to have the console connected to the TV via HDMI, and then having an HDMI from the TV going to the receiver, or should one use the optical port on the console to go directly into the Optical IN port on the receiver?

As such, your receiver becomes the main hub for all your media devices. You can probably hook up the console to the TV directly, and then transmit the signal through the TV and into a receiver, but I don't have any personal experience with this.

This is how my theater room is set up. Everything is connected to the receiver and one HDMI out runs to the projector. The projector then stays on the same input all the time and when the source is changed on the receiver, it obviously automatically shows up on the projector. The same would apply to a television.

how do I know if the receiver I'm picking up is capable of receiving/decoding the format on a 1:1 basis?

Most will have a sticker or list it on the specs what audio formats it will support.

All I need to do is match the output and "ohms", correct?

For the most part, you shouldn't really have to worry about tat unless you have "abnormal" speakers. Most home theater speakers are 8ohm and receivers can handle 4-16 but you should double check that.

Though I'm not sure I will be able to find an amp that can seamless connect with the pins/input cables on my speakers.

Is there anything special with the speakers that make you think it won't work? Unless they were a bundle pack with the receiver (the dreaded HTiB (Home Theater in a Box)), you should be fine.

a 20 dollar HDMI cable should ensure the exact same audio and visual quality as one that costs 50 dollars.

My only side note for that would be HDMI run length and cable thickness (AWG (American Wire Gauge)). If you're only running 6 feet, any old cable will do. If you're running, like I am, from the mechanical room where the sound equipment is across the ceiling to the projector 35 feet away, you might have enough signal loss to not have a picture. Using a thicker (lower number) gauge wire will decrease signal loss giving you a longer run. Or you can use what is did - a Redmere cable. It's an HDMI cable but it's directional, not bi-directional like standard HDMI and has a little chip in it that boosts the signal.

EDIT: As this isn't a section I frequent all that much, make sure you tag or quote me if you want a reply!

 

[Jawehawk]

On the PS3, RCA (red/white) could only output 2 channel, optical could output up to 5.1 and HDMI 7.1

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I know that you can transmit Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 through an optical cable, but if you try to transmit an uncompressed 5.1 track through it, it'll be downgraded to a 2 channel stereo track. Am I wrong in this?

Random source: http://www.techhive.com/article/215202/hdmi_vs_spdif.html

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ah, a soundbar.. now how good are these at replicating high-end digital surround sound? Practically as good as a conventional 5.1/7.1 system you'd say? And, are they significantly less costly to acquire?

I'm probably the worst person to ask about a comparison. All I know is that mine cost about $200 and it was one of the best purchases I have made. I really noticed it when watching motorsport in particular - the sounds are much clearer and more crisp compared to a standard television. If you're on a budget, it's probably the best way to go, and to an everyman like me eho doesn't know much about sound quality, it's good enough.

 

[dice1998]

@Terronium-12 should weigh in on this I think

 

[Speedster911]

HDMI is definitely the way to go. It supports all the common audio formats, and just about all modern equipment have HDMI ports. Dedicated receivers meant for home theaters typically have en HDMI Out port meant specifically for the connection to the display unit (TV or projector), followed by any number of HDMI In ports, which are meant for your consoles, music players and so on. As such, your receiver becomes the main hub for all your media devices. You can probably hook up the console to the TV directly, and then transmit the signal through the TV and into a receiver, but I don't have any personal experience with this. With my old sound setup, I had it hooked up via an optical cable to my PS3 and 4.

Optical cables support standard 5.1 Dolby and DTS, but not the lossless HD formats. it also supports 2 channel LCPM, but want any more channels than that, and you'll have to go with an HDMI. Simply put, HDMI is better. Seeing as we're on the topic of cables, I also want to stress not to go out buying one of the expensive HDMI cables believing it to be of better quality. It isn't. HDMI cables all adhere to an industry standard, so a 20 dollar HDMI cable should ensure the exact same audio and visual quality as one that costs 50 dollars. I hesitate to say that this applies to every type of cable out there, but for the most part, the fancy and expensive ones usually don't offer any better quality. It's just sales tricks.

Bit streaming shouldn't produce worse sound than LPCM by default, although there are cases where it does. For instance, the pre slim model PS3's didn't support the bit streaming of lossless audio formats. So if I wanted to enjoy the Dolby TrueHD track on a Blu-Ray, I needed to choose LPCM from the PS3's setting. Choosing bit streaming would result in the audio being down sampled to lossy DTS or Dolby. This was corrected with the PS3 slim which was capable of bit streaming HD audio formats. With both the Xbox One and PS4, the audio should sound the same regardless of whether you choose bit stream or LPCM.

As for how you'll know, just check the specifications sheets for the given receiver. It'll list the supported formats, both in terms of what it can decode itself, but also what it can receive from other sources. Most standalone receivers made today support LPCM and the various Dolby and DTS formats. The only modern formats that might not be supported are Dolby Atmos, and DTS X (the competitor to Atmos), as they probably still command a premium.

If your speakers came with your DVD player as one set, then I'm not sure you'll be able to connect them to anything but that player. Sets like that aren't really build around the idea of customization. But I'm afraid that is beyond my knowledge. I suspect that @TB might be able to share more info on these matters, as he's way more knowledgeable about these things than I am.

So is it better to first hook up the console to the receiver and then use the receiver's HDMI out port to go to the TV or hook up the console to the TV first and then get the HDMI out port to go into the receiver? This is mildly confusing for me as I'm not sure which one will yield 100% lossless audio & video. I'm betting on the receiver first but I don't know if that will degrade the visual quality or introduce any lag.

And yes, my speakers and amp only output DTS/DD through the built-in player - is this what you call one of those HTiB systems? Gosh, I wish I had done more research before making my purchase well over a decade ago!

Note that I don't have an XBox so some of my ramblings might not apply.

On the PS3, RCA (red/white) could only output 2 channel, optical could output up to 5.1 and HDMI 7.1.

Whenever possible!

This is how my theater room is set up. Everything is connected to the receiver and one HDMI out runs to the projector. The projector then stays on the same input all the time and when the source is changed on the receiver, it obviously automatically shows up on the projector. The same would apply to a television.

Most will have a sticker or list it on the specs what audio formats it will support.

For the most part, you shouldn't really have to worry about tat unless you have "abnormal" speakers. Most home theater speakers are 8ohm and receivers can handle 4-16 but you should double check that.

Is there anything special with the speakers that make you think it won't work? Unless they were a bundle pack with the receiver (the dreaded HTiB (Home Theater in a Box)), you should be fine.

My only side note for that would be HDMI run length and cable thickness (AWG (American Wire Gauge)). If you're only running 6 feet, any old cable will do. If you're running, like I am, from the mechanical room where the sound equipment is across the ceiling to the projector 35 feet away, you might have enough signal loss to not have a picture. Using a thicker (lower number) gauge wire will decrease signal loss giving you a longer run. Or you can use what is did - a Redmere cable. It's an HDMI cable but it's directional, not bi-directional like standard HDMI and has a little chip in it that boosts the signal.

EDIT: As this isn't a section I frequent all that much, make sure you tag or quote me if you want a reply!

@TB Well, I do not believe the HDMI 5.1 or 7.1 setting applies to me as my amp does not accept optical/coaxial or HDMI signals from external sources such as a console. So I'm just using HDMI Stereo from the Audio settings as my console goes to the TV via HDMI and RCA jacks from the TV go into my amp. However, I was actually surprised how good games sounded after activating the virtual Dolby Atmos option that can be done through the Dolby Access app. I could hear things going on in a surround field, with much more clarity to boot along with more variations in volume levels of various things happening in the game. Too bad the app is glitchy as heck.

In your opinion, is it always, and I mean always better to connect your game console through HDMI to the receiver FIRST and then have another HDMI cable going into the HDMI In port on the TV? I don'thave any distance concerns - everything is right here within reach.

Yeah exactly - my system was a bundle pack with receiver. They just did such a good job of showcasing it; I took some of my MJ CDs and the clarity, bass and midrange just blew me away. I said, man I have GOT to have this for my PS2/X360 (at the time). However, I just wasn't as well-informed back then, and impulsive buying got the best of me. Little did I know that this thing would never ever let me enjoy surround sound externally from a console, satellite TV or bluray player.

I'm probably the worst person to ask about a comparison. All I know is that mine cost about $200 and it was one of the best purchases I have made. I really noticed it when watching motorsport in particular - the sounds are much clearer and more crisp compared to a standard television. If you're on a budget, it's probably the best way to go, and to an everyman like me eho doesn't know much about sound quality, it's good enough.

Hmm, interesting. Have you tried enabling the Dolby Atmos w/headphones setting on your system? You just have to keep headphones plugged into your controller and you'll get the virtual DA effects through your external speakers as well. Worth a shot - it really made my games sound alive like a frikkin big budget fireworks show, ya know?

@Terronium-12 should weigh in on this I think

Still awaiting Mr. Moderator's insights.

 

[Jawehawk]

So is it better to first hook up the console to the receiver and then use the receiver's HDMI out port to go to the TV or hook up the console to the TV first and then get the HDMI out port to go into the receiver? This is mildly confusing for me as I'm not sure which one will yield 100% lossless audio & video. I'm betting on the receiver first but I don't know if that will degrade the visual quality or introduce any lag.

And yes, my speakers and amp only output DTS/DD through the built-in player - is this what you call one of those HTiB systems? Gosh, I wish I had done more research before making my purchase well over a decade ago!

I don't know if passing the audio through a TV before it goes into the receiver will have any negative consequence for the quality of the audio. I doubt it will, but seeing as dedicated receivers are designed around the idea of acting as the main hub, it would seem unnecessary. Simply put, there is no reason not to run everything into the receiver, and then use the receiver HDMI Out port to the TV. Not sure if the HDMI In ports will even accept the TV as a source, given that the HDMI Out is specifically designed with the TV (or projector) in mind.

Conclusion. When dealing with a dedicated receiver, hook everything up to the receiver via HDMI.

HTiB system are indeed DVD/Blu-Ray players that come with a speaker setup. They can sound quite good, and for a reasonable price at that, but you won't find any that sound as good as high quality speakers, and the players aren't designed around the idea of working with other devices aside from the TV. Hence why they don't usually, if ever, have ports for you to run a console through. Setting up a dedicated receiver along with whatever speakers and sub(s) you decide on is a more involved affair, although it's still fairly straight forward. Biggest challenges are the price and figuring out what speakers compliment each other well. Stores and websites that sell this type of audio equipment usually have knowledgeable staff at the ready to guide one through the selection process.

 

[TB]

In your opinion, is it always, and I mean always better to connect your game console through HDMI to the receiver FIRST and then have another HDMI cable going into the HDMI In port on the TV?

Your TV might do some processing of the audio, depending on settings, before it passes it along to the receiver. The receiver should not be doing the same to the video signal. So unless there is an input/output issue that limits that ideal connection, I'd always go console - receiver - display.

man I have GOT to have this for my PS2/X360 (at the time). However, I just wasn't as well-informed back then, and impulsive buying got the best of me. Little did I know that this thing would never ever let me enjoy surround sound externally from a console, satellite TV or bluray player.

Ten years ago there wasn't nearly the surround options that there are today so even if you had researched everything, you'd still be missing something. I have a Sony receiver that's about 8 years old with a PS4 connected to it via optical because it doesn't have HDMI. Conversely, I have a PS3 in the theater room (that link's not up to date but close enough for this) connected to a Onkyo receiver via HDMI and it works beautifully.

Point is, tech changes quickly and while chasing the latest and greatest is usually futile, and quite expensive, most done need the newest thing and can have *le gasp* a few year old gear for a decent price and be very happy with it. Hell, my left and right speakers are about 30 years old, cost me $50 and sound great.

 

[Speedster911]

Excellent reference for information. Thanks for all your help guys!



Anybody tried the Dolby Atmos w/headphones setting? This only applies if you're playing games/watching movies through a stereo headset or audio system. Real game changer.

Too bad the app that allows it is glitched.

 

[Jawehawk]

Any time mate. let us know what you decide on in the end

 

[Speedster911]

Any time mate. let us know what you decide on in the end

I barely have a budget at the moment but wanted to be completely armed with the knowhow before upgrading. No idea when that's going to be.

For now, I'm just working my way around the DA app glitch just to get my precious little virtual DA surround sound and it really makes a difference. Heck, I might even pay up the $15 usage fee IF they clear the app of beta status.

Far more practical than a $600 amp + speakers but it's on my radar now. Before anything else, I will get myself a surround bad boy. Way more important than a 4K TV or wheel + pedal setup.