Can't use RUF in Schwarzwald Liga A?

[Cobra S]

wtf? it says German cars only, yet i can't use RUF... what's the dealyo guys?

 

[Scaff]

And which Ruf are you using?

As the Schwarzwald Liga A has a horsepower limit of around 300bhp maximum, so it doesn't matter how German the car is if its above that level.

Regards

Scaff

 

[BobK]

You can use the 3400S in Schwarzwald Liga B. I would imagine you could use the other Rufs there too, but I haven't tried any but the 3400S.

 

[eiriksmil]

You can use the 3400S in Schwarzwald Liga B. I would imagine you could use the other Rufs there too, but I haven't tried any but the 3400S.

Schwarzwald Liga A and B is two way different things. I've used a 850 bhp Merc in the B, and can't imagine there are restrictions on HP there, on A however, I believe there are restrictions, as Scaff said.

Scaff, how sure are you that there are restrictions on ~300 bhp? I thought it went after the type of car, it must be European and relativly small. Or perhaps do you think that the original amount of power can't exceed 300? I would believe a modded 330i, GTI or Opel Speedster could do over 300 bhp, the 330i perhaps closer to 350 bhp? Do you think they could have entered?


Eirik

 

[BobK]

Schwarzwald Liga A and B is two way different things. I've used a 850 bhp Merc in the B, and can't imagine there are restrictions on HP there, on A however, I believe there are restrictions, as Scaff said.

Scaff, how sure are you that there are restrictions on ~300 bhp? I thought it went after the type of car, it must be European and relativly small. Or perhaps do you think that the original amount of power can't exceed 300? I would believe a modded 330i, GTI or Opel Speedster could do over 300 bhp, the 330i perhaps closer to 350 bhp? Do you think they could have entered?


Eirik

What I meant to say was if you can't use the car in Schwarzwald Liga A then you can use it in Schwarzwald Liga B, usually. You can't use things like the CLK-GTR race car or BMW M3 GTR race car in either series, even with sports tires, but you can use the Lupo Cup Car in Schwarzwald Liga A.

As for the horsepower limit, I think the limit is based on the stock version of the car. For instance a fully modded VW New Beetle RSi at 400+ hp (224 hp stock) can be used in Schwarzwald Liga A, but a 338 hp (with no mods) BMW M3 goes in Schwarzwald Liga B.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Schwarzwald Liga A and B is two way different things. I've used a 850 bhp Merc in the B, and can't imagine there are restrictions on HP there, on A however, I believe there are restrictions, as Scaff said.

Scaff, how sure are you that there are restrictions on ~300 bhp? I thought it went after the type of car, it must be European and relativly small. Or perhaps do you think that the original amount of power can't exceed 300? I would believe a modded 330i, GTI or Opel Speedster could do over 300 bhp, the 330i perhaps closer to 350 bhp? Do you think they could have entered?

I am curious about this as well, as the listed restrictions do not mention any HP limit, like the Supercar Festival does. They basicaly list very similar restrictions, but give obviously different lists of cars as an example of what can be used.

However, if you read the scrolling text at the bottom when you place the pointer on either of those races, or when you select them they do mention HP.

The text for Schwarzwald Liga A mentions that it is a race for 200hp+ German sports cars, while the text for Schwarzwald Liga B is for 300-400hp German cars.

Of course, these descriptions don't really help as they don't appear to mean much either.

For example, you can enter the Schwarzwald Liga A event with a 75hp Audi A2 4-door wagon. Not exactly a 200hp+ sports car if you know what I mean.

You can also enter the Schwarzwald Liga B event with an 608hp Audi Nuvolari, which isn't even a production car, and well above 400hp.

I was able to enter Liba A event with a BMW 330i w/stage 2 engine tuning which has over 320hp. Maybe the HP limit is based only on the cars stock specs, and ignores that specific car’s modified HP?

It would be useful to know what the specific restrictions are.


EDIT: Looks like BobK said basically the same thing... that'll teach me to start a reply, test out my theory in the game, and then post without refreshing the page to see if anyone posted since then.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

What I meant to say was if you can't use the car in Schwarzwald Liga A then you can use it in Schwarzwald Liga B, usually. You can't use things like the CLK-GTR race car or BMW M3 GTR race car in either series, even with sports tires, but you can use the Lupo Cup Car in Schwarzwald Liga A.

And yet adding to the mystery is the fact that you can't enter the 205hp Beetle Cup car or the 261hp 320i Touring car, but you can enter the Lupo Cup cars with less than 140hp.

 

[eiriksmil]

I am curious about this as well, as the listed restrictions do not mention any HP limit, like the Supercar Festival does. They basicaly list very similar restrictions, but give obviously different lists of cars as an example of what can be used.

However, if you read the scrolling text at the bottom when you place the pointer on either of those races, or when you select them they do mention HP.

The text for Schwarzwald Liga A mentions that it is a race for 200hp+ German sports cars, while the text for Schwarzwald Liga B is for 300-400hp German cars.

Of course, these descriptions don't really help as they don't appear to mean much either.

For example, you can enter the Schwarzwald Liga A event with a 75hp Audi A2 4-door wagon. Not exactly a 200hp+ sports car if you know what I mean.

You can also enter the Schwarzwald Liga B event with an 608hp Audi Nuvolari, which isn't even a production car, and well above 400hp.

I was able to enter Liba A event with a BMW 330i w/stage 2 engine tuning which has over 320hp. Maybe the HP limit is based only on the cars stock specs, and ignores that specific car’s modified HP?

It would be useful to know what the specific restrictions are.

Yes, I think you are right, you too BobK.

If any of you remember GT2 and the limits on power there, it was totally different from GT4. In GT4, I haven't seen many maximum HP and they are probably regarding stock cars. On the point of Supercar Festival, the restrictions are 493 bhp and over, and "unmodified cars only". In GT2, this would have been for non-modified cars only, in GT1 too. However, I entered the Supercar Festival with a modded Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo producing 855 bhp. Seems like it's not so strict around there.
Another thing I noticed, I ran the European Hot Hatch League once, and as I recall, the overall winner was a BMW M Coupe, a car not possible to enter with.
Although I used to hate the restriction system on GT2, at least it was clear. This is not. Anyway...
The 330i is possible to get with NA Tune Stage III too, right? Would have been fun to see if one could enter Liga A with it. I think you (we) must be right, that the BHP class limitations (I think that would be a better way to refer to it, than only limits, class limits) regards stock cars under 300 bhp or so.
I did a test now, with the Mercedes SL500 R129, which has 276 bhp (same as the Gentlemens Agreement). It's a typical Liga B car, and cannot enter Liga A even if it has approximatly the same specifications as the BMW 330i. So, I've got a theory. It's based on engine size, not power. On the other side, Audi 3.2 litre cars can enter, but not BMWs 3.2 M Coupe, which is making ~310 bhp instead of ~250.
So, we've got the theory with the power under 300 bhp, which makes perfect sense. Except for the small hole with the SL500. So, could it be a maximum on 300 bhp combined with a max. on 3.5 litres?
Or, I have another theory. Maybe it's based on length? The R129 is 4500 mm, so maybe there's a limit here? Nope, the Opel Vectra 3.2 V6 broke that theory.

However, I have made a conclusion. Perhaps, it's based on three factors, power, length and size of engine? If you fail two of three, you cannot join? I would never have come to this conclusion if it wasn't for the SL500. What on earth makes it a Liga B car instead of Liga A? It can't just be power, then, can it?
Perhaps PD just said "We'll throw in the SL500 together with the SL600. No one will think twice about it".. Maybe that's the simple, logical explanation?


I just got another theory.
You know when one drive against other, when you are stock? You'll have opponents with power in the same region, about what you have. Leave the engine stock, but upgrade suspension, tires, weight reduction, etc. and you'll have better opponents, for example 250 bhp against your 140. Maybe that's the way it works with the 320i Touring car, SL500, Beetle Cup Car, etc? Because a 261 bhp 320i Touring Car is superior to a 261 bhp 330i Road Car? And the Beetle is too good for a Beetle RSi or a Golf V GTI? The Lupo Cup has less than 140 bhp, and maybe that equals to a 240 bhp road car, with maybe 4/3 the weight of the Lupo.
Maybe that's how it's connected for the SL500 too? That it has 276 bhp but is superior to a 330i with 260 bhp? Maybe it is that simple?


Eirik

 

[Cobra S]

i already beat Liga B, now i must beat A so i can get the M3 GTR! i was trying to use the CTR2 and the RGT. and it says the only restriction was that it has to be German, no power limits or anything...

 

[Scaff]

My post was off the top of my head as I was not near my PS2 at the time, as far as I am aware a hp limit of some kind does exist in Liga A.

I can recall having a few issue with it myself, if I remember the list of cars you can use give a good indication, any way using any RUF but the 3400s would be total overkill anyway.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Here is one more odd little morsel to chew over...

The 1998 BMW M Coupe, which in GT4 is only available used has 286 hp when first purchased. However, you still cannot enter it in the Liga A, but you can use it in the Liga B.

Now this still may fit the theoretical formula for HP restriction as the 286 hp is due to both old oil and mileage.

If you give it new oil, it bumps it up to 316 hp (321 if you go by the in garage sort list)

Based on GT4's formula for mileage = hp loss, when new with fresh oil, the hp would be 338hp.

Now here is where it really gets interesting. The 1998 BMW M Coupe is one of the cars the AI can use against you in Liga A.

Furthermore, the AI M Coupe performs rather poorly, and suggests to me that the AI is using a 286hp M Coupe with old oil. This of course would partially explain why the AI uses it in that race, but then again... if they can use it, so should we. This suggests that the restriction was probably meant to be HP based on the car's actual rating, and not on its original specs.

So by all accounts, the AI restriction is based on actual performance, and by accident the programmers made the player restrictions based on original specs. If so, it is easy to see how this may have slipped past error checking and beta testing.

Regardless of the few oddities, like the AI use of the M Coupe, and the ability to use the two Lupo Cup cars, from what I can tell the actual restrictions are as follows:

• German Cars Only (any size and car style allowed)
• Modified and Concept Cars OK
• No Racing Cars
• Normal or Sport Tyres Only
• Liga A: Under 300hp based on Original Stock Specs
• Liga B: 300hp+ based on Original Stock Specs

I would be curious if you can use the 1998 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129), as its listed HP is 301, 305 after oil change. It is only available used, and I don't have it, and am several weeks of game days away from it being available in the Used Lot II. If anyone has it, and hasn't changed its oil, could you see if it can enter either Liga A or B races? Thanks.

EDIT: Totally forgot that eiriksmil already tested out the SL 500, and it cannot be used in Liga A.... so that 300HP based on original specs appears to hold true.

 

[Tornado]

It is similar to the Premium Sports lounge. It has nothng to do with BHP or size or any of that. There is essentially a list of cars you can enter programmed into the game for that race, and if you try to enter with a car not on the list it will not let you in. The only way to tell which cars can enter is to try to enter them.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

It is similar to the Premium Sports lounge. It has nothng to do with BHP or size or any of that. There is essentially a list of cars you can enter programmed into the game for that race, and if you try to enter with a car not on the list it will not let you in. The only way to tell which cars can enter is to try to enter them.

There is fairly obvious evidence that it is based on stock HP, and that in combination with the listed restrictions there aren't glaring exceptions similar to Premium Sports lounge.

For instance every German road car with under 300hp based on its stock specs does qualify for Liga A, and every German road car with 300hp+ based on stock specs does qualify for Liga B. Seems pretty clear cut.

You can make a list, but it will include all the German road cars... none are left out like there are with the Premium Sports Lounge, which would suggest that there are no car specific lists for the Liga events. If there was such a list, we would see several German roadcars excluded from entering either race regardless of its stock HP.

The only odd exception for entry qualification, which looks very much like an oversight by PD, is the ability to use either Lupo cup cars, but with N/S tyres of course. Seeing as this wouldn't be the first oversight by PD, and is certainly a very minor oversight, it doesn't suggest that there is some specific car list.

As mentioned earlier, the fact that the AI does use the M Coupe in Liga A, may suggest that the restriction was intended to be based on a car's actual HP (which certainly makes more sense), but there still appears a clear cut restriction, unlike the Premium Sports Lounge event.

 

[Tornado]

There is fairly obvious evidence that it is based on stock HP, and that in combination with the listed restrictions there aren't glaring exceptions similar to Premium Sports lounge.
For instance every German road car with under 300hp based on its stock specs does qualify for Liga A, and every German road car with 300hp+ based on stock specs does qualify for Liga B. Seems pretty clear cut.

However, when looked at in the same light as Premium Sports, this clear cut evidence can also be seen as merely circumstancial evidence that happens to go along with the fact that there is a specific list of cars entereable in the race. I'm basing this assumption that since the game shows lists of cars in the race entry screen the same thing applies to this race as the pickup truck race, the convertible race and the Premium Sports race. This also explains why the 3400S is unenterable in A, as it does have less than 300BHP stock (I beleive). Furthermore, I highly doubt that PD would go through the trouble to insert a BHP limit for the car in stock specs and not include one for how high a car can be tuned, as was the case in GT2. I also doubt that they would not list it in the race criteria.

You can make a list, but it will include all the German road cars... none are left out like there are with the Premium Sports Lounge, which would suggest that there are no car specific lists for the Liga events. If there was such a list, we would see several German roadcars excluded from entering either race regardless of its stock HP.

Such as what? And even if that did apply, it would be the same condition as Premium Sports for cars such as the Ford GT.

The only odd exception for entry qualification, which looks very much like an oversight by PD, is the ability to use either Lupo cup cars, but with N/S tyres of course. Seeing as this wouldn't be the first oversight by PD, it doesn't suggest that there is some specific car list.

Nor does it detract from the idea of such a list. I hope you see what I'm implying. Your opinion on how the cars are filtered in is no more right than mine. And they both have evidence pointing to them as the reason.

 

[BobK]

The Ruf 3400S has 305 hp according to the specs you see when you buy it. Mine has 326 HP with an oil change, which implies it had 310 as delivered. So according to the 300 hp theory it would clearly go in Liga B, w3hich in fact it does (and collects 200 points ).

I wouldn't read too much in to the BMW M coupe in the Liga A opposition. There are plenty of other oddities in that area; Ciens and Nardos among the AI in the Supercar Festival for instance.

My theory is that it is indeed a list, which the engineers prepared working from a list of German cars. I have this mental image of one engineer reading cars off the list and another saying "A" or "B", or "That's a race car. Neither."

 

[FunInTheSun]

I used the Mercedes SLK 230 Kompressor '98 which has 284 BHP according to my notes.

 

[BobK]

I used the Mercedes SLK 230 Kompressor '98 which has 284 BHP according to my notes.

In which race? Liga A or B?

 

[FunInTheSun]

In which race? Liga A or B?

A

I used the Audi Nuvolari quattro for B

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

This also explains why the 3400S is unenterable in A, as it does have less than 300BHP stock (I beleive).

And yet you would be incorrect. In fact had you checked the specs on the RUF 3400 before using it to try and prove that it has nothing to do with a car's HP, you would have known this.

As has been said, ALL the German road cars with stock hp under 300 can be used in Liga A, all with 300+ can be used in Liga B. Where do you see the similarities with this and the Premium Sports Lounge, where there are no specific restrictions that are applied to all the cars in the game?

If you want to say its a list and that works for you great, but there are obvious restrictions that made that list from all the cars in GT4 - the same cannot be said for the Premium Sports Lounge. Maybe PD has a "list" of every car that an be used in all events, like the FF Challenge... and it just so happens to include... all the cars that meet the restrictions listed and or implied.

However it is misleading to compare it to the Premium Sports Lounge, because in the case of the Liga events, like the majority of events, there are obvious restrictions in place that determine what car can be used. The Liga events just aren't as obvious as others, thus the reason for this thread and the discussion between several of us confirming Scaff's earlier suspicion.

Is there a particular reason why you joined in on this thread just to be argumentative using examples, like the RUF 3400, which aren't even accurate? At the very least you might consider checking your facts before jumping in and suggesting these restrictions, and therefore this discussion have no meaning, and that it is all just a list of cars PD put together like the Premium Sports Lounge. Because if that was the case, then there would be several "qualifying" German cars that would be left off the list... like the Premium Sports Lounge.... but you chose to ignore this fact, perhaps just to continue your argument.

Furthermore, I highly doubt that PD would go through the trouble to insert a BHP limit for the car in stock specs and not include one for how high a car can be tuned, as was the case in GT2. I also doubt that they would not list it in the race criteria.

Feel free to read through the thread more carefully, you'll see there are some very reasonable explanations for it. Or are you suggesting GT4 is without any bugs, errors, or glitches?

BTW: Here is the "list" of all the German road cars that can be used in Liga A (and just so happen to include EVERY one that has less than 300 stock hp) :

1. 2002 Audi A2 1.4
2. 2003 Audi A3 3.2 quattro
3. 1982 Audi quattro
4. 2002 Audi S3
5. 1998 Audi S4
6. 2000 Audi TT Coupe 1.8T quattro
7. 2003 Audi TT Coupe 3.2 quattro
8. 2004 BMW 120d
9. 2004 BMW 120i
10. 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo
11. 2005 BMW 330i
12. 2003 BMW Z4
13. 1991 Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5 - 16 Evolution II
14. 1954 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupe
15. 1998 Mercedes-Benz A 160 Avantgarde
16. 1998 Mercedes-Benz SLK 230 Kompressor
17. 2001 Opel Corsa Comfort 1.4
18. 2000 Opel Speedster
19. 2000 Opel Speedster Turbo
20. 1999 Opel Tigra 1.6i
21. 2003 Opel Vectra 3.2 V6
22. 1949 Volkswagen Beetle 1100 Standard (Type-11)
23. 2001 Volkswagen Bora V6 4MOTION
24. 1976 Volkswagen Golf I GTI
25. 2001 Volkswagen Golf IV GTI
26. 2003 Volkswagen Golf IV R32
27. 2005 Volkswagen Golf V GTI
28. 1968 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1)
29. 2002 Volkswagen Lupo 1.4
30. 2001 Volkswagen Lupo GTI
31. 2000 Volkswagen New Beetle 2.0
32. 2000 Volkswagen New Beetle RSi
33. 2001 Volkswagen Polo GTI

Here is the "list" of all the German road cars that can be used in Liga B (and just so happen to include EVERY one that has 300+ stock hp) :

1. 2003 Audi Le Mans quattro
2. 2003 Audi Nuvolari quattro
3. 2003 Audi Pikes Peak quattro
4. 2001 Audi RS 4
5. 2002 Audi RS 6
6. 2002 Audi RS 6 Avant
7. 2003 Audi S4
8. 1998 BMW M Coupe
9. 2004 BMW M3
10. 2003 BMW M3 CSL
11. 2003 BMW M3 GTR
12. 2005 BMW M5
13. 2000 Mercedes-Benz CL 600
14. 2000 Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG
15. 2002 Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG
16. 1998 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129)
17. 2002 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R230)
18. 2002 Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG (R230)
19. 1998 Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R129)
20. 2004 Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230)
21. 2004 Mercedes-Benz SL 65 AMG (R230)
22. 2003 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
23. 2000 RUF 3400S
24. 1986 RUF BTR
25. 1987 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird"
26. 1996 RUF CTR2
27. 2000 RUF RGT
28. 2001 Volkswagen W12 Nardo Concept

 

[Duke]

wtf? it says German cars only, yet i can't use RUF... what's the dealyo guys?

Considering that you can win Liga A in a bone-stock VW R32, the Ruf is overkill. It would be right at home in Liga B, however.

 

[Pupik]

A 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo with a race tranny is all you need for Liga A, and you'll get some close racing.

I wish there were more races for that car in stock form, but that's another matter.

 

[Tornado]

As has been said, ALL the German road cars with stock hp under 300 can be used in Liga A, all with 300+ can be used in Liga B. Where do you see the similarities with this and the Premium Sports Lounge, where there are no specific restrictions that are applied to all the cars in the game?

The only difference I see between the two is that Premium Sports doesn't have an assumed reason for car selection. The reason for entry in the original race entry screen in both (and Euro Hot Hatch) suggest the use of a list of cars programmed into the game as the reason you can't enter is based on the car list shown flashing, and the only difference is that it is guessed that the reason for selection in Schwarzwald Liga A is based on BHP. My theory has just as much weight as yours.

If you want to say its a list and that works for you great, but there are obvious restrictions that made that list from all the cars in GT4 - the same cannot be said for the Premium Sports Lounge. Maybe PD has a "list" of every car that an be used in all events, like the FF Challenge... and it just so happens to include... all the cars that meet the restrictions listed and or implied.

However, FF challenge and Schwarzwald Liga A vary in one very key issue: When you go to the initial race entry screen (the very first one that says the regulations) there is a list of cars in Schwarzwald Liga A. When the car you are entering does not qualify for the race, the list flashes. This is the exact same thing that happens in Premium Sports lounge. The exact same thing.
This also coincides with every single manafacturers cup race. And those races seems to have no criteria other than the fact that the car isn't on the race entry list. When you try to enter FF race with an MR car, the thing that says FF cars only flashes. When you try to enter the Mini Cup with a Golf (or even a British Mini), the car list flashes. Apples and oranges. This also applies to the Euro Hot Hatch cup. Just because the cars happen to have >300BHP does not mean that it is the deciding factor.

However it is misleading to compare it to the Premium Sports Lounge, because in the case of the Liga events, like the majority of events, there are obvious restrictions in place that determine what car can be used. The Liga events just aren't as obvious as others, thus the reason for this thread and the discussion between several of us confirming Scaff's earlier suspicion.

Correction: It is thought that there are obvious restrictions. If there were obvious restrictions based on BHP than they would be listed as such similar to how the restrictions are in the FF cup.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Correction: It is thought that there are obvious restrictions. If there were obvious restrictions based on BHP than they would be listed as such similar to how the restrictions are in the FF cup.

Once again, you chose to ignore the fact that there are common oversights in GT4 that would certainly explain why it may have been left off.

Bottom line: You said your theory explains why the 3400S is “unenterable" in A, as it does have less than 300BHP stock (I beleive).... which of course was incorrect.

You said specifically “it has nothing to do with BHP”... and the list of acceptable cars quite clearly proves that it does. Unless of course you are prepared to show at least one example of a German road car with less than 300 stock HP that can NOT be used in Liga A, or a German road car with 300+ stock hp that cannot be used in Liga B. I'm betting you cannot.

Adding to that, while not specific, the scrolling text even hints at the importance HP has on these races.

Then you said, “the only way to tell which cars can enter is to try to enter them.” Which is also not true. If its stock HP is under 300 then you can enter it in Liga A, if its 300 or more you can enter it in Liga B. There is no need to try out each car to see if it can be used.

Once again, this is not like the Premium Sports Lounge, as you have suggested, which in that case you can’t go by any list of implied restrictions, and therefore must try out different cars, or look at a list someone has generated.

Combine all this evidence, and the fact that these slight oversights are not only understandable, but there are already precedents. Then your notion of some limited list of cars that have nothing to do with HP does not seem to hold up well by comparison.

Judging by my previous experience with you, I do not expected you to even consider that you may have been mistaken about the importance of HP, despite the glaring evidence that it does.

For these reasons I wont respond any longer to your replies on this topic.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

A 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo with a race tranny is all you need for Liga A, and you'll get some close racing.

I wish there were more races for that car in stock form, but that's another matter.

Great suggestion, and I agree, I wish there were more races in GT4 that would allow a 2002 to be competitive. It is a really fun car to drive!

 

[Tornado]

Bottom line: You said your theory explains why the 3400S is “unenterable" in A, as it does have less than 300BHP stock (I beleive).... which of course was incorrect.

Bottom line, I've not pushed that theory since BobK said the 3400S had more than 300BHP.

You said specifically “it has nothing to do with BHP”... and the list of acceptable cars quite clearly proves that it does. Unless of course you are prepared to show at least one example of a German road car with less than 300 stock HP that can NOT be used in Liga A, or a German road car with 300+ stock hp that cannot be used in Liga B. I'm betting you cannot.

No, I cannot. But that still does not mean you are in the right in how the cars are selected as it could still very well be circumstantial.

Adding to that, while not specific, the scrolling text even hints at the importance HP has on these races.

It does nothing of the sort.

Then you said, “the only way to tell which cars can enter is to try to enter them.” Which is also not true. If its stock HP is under 300 then you can enter it in Liga A, if its 300 or more you can enter it in Liga B. There is no need to try out each car to see if it can be used.

Which just so happens to be the case. Not necessarily why the race is chosen.

Once again, this is not like the Premium Sports Lounge, as you have suggested, which in that case you can’t go by any list of implied restrictions, and therefore must try out different cars, or look at a list someone has generated.

I haven't said it was since the first post.

Combine all this evidence, and the fact that these slight oversights are not only understandable, but there are already precedents. Then your notion of some limited list of cars that have nothing to do with HP does not seem to hold up well by comparison.

And when crossed with the fact that your evidence could very well be circumstantial, it can nullify both of our points.

Judging by my previous experience with you,

First of all, since you mentioned the XBox thread, I will get this out of the way as even my PM to you didn't seem to be enough to explain it to you:
I was not disagreeing with you. At all. In fact, I agreed with your saying that there was no written deadline. All I was saying to you was that you need to choose your words more carefully if you want to be one to criticize others. That is all.

I do not expected you to even consider that you may have been mistaken about the importance of HP, despite the glaring evidence that it does.

Which is fine with me, because you yourself are being a hypocrite.
From my previous post:

My theory has just as much weight as yours.

And again, before that:

Nor does it detract from the idea of such a list. I hope you see what I'm implying. Your opinion on how the cars are filtered in is no more right than mine. And they both have evidence pointing to them as the reason.

I was willing to agree with you that the race just happens to be done by BHP (though not necessarily that it was the reason for it). I said that your theory has truthfullness behind it. All I have been saying for the past 2 posts is that I have evidence for my theory as well, and have explained that theory. Since I was told the RUF had more than 300BHP I have not once said out and out that you were wrong. You have been the one who was completely ignoring what I was saying by just repeating that I was so obviously wrong because Shwarzwald Liga A is nothing like Premium Sports or Euro Hot Hatch, when I posted evidence that it is. It could also have ended their, as I essentially was saying that as we both have evidence pointing in opposite directions, nither of us can prove the other wrong. But you were the one who wasn't okay with that.



I will also leave with some sage advice, that you yourself had the honor of posting:

Apparently, or at the very least you may want to consider a change in the way you express your opinions, so they do not look like statements of fact... or not get so defensive when someone points it out.

 

[Dave A]

I have to say this bickering is pointless, both ideas are theories, the game may well read the stock bhp for your car or it may well be list based there is no evidence to conclude for certain what it actually does. The bottom line is that you can tell if your German car can enter if it has under 300bhp stock, how PD have done this either by the game reading your car specs or by them simply creating a list of cars that qualify is imo irrelivent and certainly nothing to argue over.

 

[Serge.D]

i used a bmw 120d for a liga & a bmw m coupe for b liga (sometimes there is a golf 5 gti in the b liga