Cars pulling away from me on the straights (PP restricted racing)

[chuyler1]

Has anyone figured out whether suspension and/or LSD settings can affect straight line acceleration. Take the straight on Suzaka East for example. If you enter it right on someone's bumper and they pull away from you (despite you having the draft), what do you do?

I've already removed the wing and maximized my mods for peak HP. I've also tried over-modding and using the power reduction. It usually results in lower peak HP but you get that HP over a broader rpm range.

No matter what I do, some cars just seem to be 2-3 seconds slower on certain tracks because they don't accelerate quick enough. I've seen it at Sukaza East as well as Tsukuba running laps in several of my own cars. i've tried tunes from here, using calculators, and tweaking things myself but some cars just have a speed handicap. The odd part is that more often than not, its the heavier cars which you think would be given an advantage on the straights because of their disadvantage in the twisties.

 

[ASH32]

Why would heavier cars go faster? If you ran 100 meters and then ran 100 meters with a backpack full of stuff on, which run would you be faster in. Some cars are just no good even with PP attempting to balance the field.

 

[esoxhntr]

forget HP, torque wins in acceleration.

PP is comprised of several factors. assuming same PP, a high torque car will be penalized elsewhere (typically weight).

this is why my 1700kg trucks compete with 1000kg cars - they will out-accelerate them but be slower in the turns. At about 550pp the f150 lightning has 730ish HP and about the same in torque while weighing 1700kg. a 1000kg car will have maybe ~400-500hp and if you use some little 4 banger, little torque.

also remember to adjust your gear ratios for the track. no sense of having a theortical top speed of 300km/hr while you the most you hit on the track is 210km/hr. Use the gearing to your advantage.

 

[Motor City Hami]

So far, the online racing that I have done with the PP settings, the detuned super cars like the Toyota One, Minolta 88, Audi R8s are smoking everything else. I love my Corvette LT1 RM, but just can't quite hang with those detuned super race cars.

I'm not totally sold on the PP setting thing.

I guess I need to build out and fine tune one of the super race cars. I just don't like always driving those. I'd like some variety and still be able to keep up.

 

[charliec]

Try gearing. Get FC trans and set max speed as the highest speed you'll hit on the track, that'll at least give you a start.

 

[oppositelock]

forget HP, torque wins in acceleration.

Yeah, that's false, both theoretically and in reality. A modern F1 car puts out about the same amount of torque as your average V6 family sedan. All else being equal, and assuming each is geared correctly, a 400 HP / 200 lb-ft car will slaughter a 200 HP / 400 lb-ft car every time.

 

[esoxhntr]

Yeah, that's false, both theoretically and in reality. A modern F1 car puts out about the same amount of torque as your average V6 family sedan. All else being equal, and assuming each is geared correctly, a 400 HP / 200 lb-ft car will slaughter a 200 HP / 400 lb-ft car every time.

that's far too simplistic a view.

1st off, we're comparing cars with equal PPs. all else being equal, will a 400/200 car have the same pp as a 200/400 car? i can guarantee you no. the 400/200 will be higher.

define slaughter? in a top speed race with an infinitley long straight , the 400hp will eventually attain a higher top speed.. in acceleration, the 400lb/ft torque car will get the jump.

hp sells cars, torque wins races.

 

[veyron1001]

that's far too simplistic a view.

1st off, we're comparing cars with equal PPs. all else being equal, will a 400/200 car have the same pp as a 200/400 car? i can guarantee you no. the 400/200 will be higher.

define slaughter? in a top speed race with an infinitley long straight , the 400hp will eventually attain a higher top speed.. in acceleration, the 400lb/ft torque car will get the jump.

hp sells cars, torque wins races.

Technology wins races, torque breaks things

 

[chuyler1]

Try gearing. Get FC trans and set max speed as the highest speed you'll hit on the track, that'll at least give you a start.

Already done. For one race the car in front pulled away midway through the straight and when I got to the end I bounced off the redline in 6th. Theoretically I should have pulled on him at the start of the straight while he may have caught me when I maxed out my top speed. I have also removed the spoiler since the downforce points are better spent in the HP department.

hp sells cars, torque wins races.

With restricted racing, I think it is more a factor of the curves for both torque and hp than it is the actual values. My '86 MR2 supercharger gets equal torque and hp. Peak torque is about 5,000rpm but HP doesn't peak until 6,500rpm. The torque drops off rapidly so at higher rpms the max torque value really doesn't give you an advantage. Compare that to my '86 MR2 stage 3 turbo which has more hp than torque. However both torque and hp peak above 6,200rpm so if you run between 6k and redline you are running in the power band for both values, unlike the supercharger where you need to shift early to make any use of the torque. Which of these two cars is faster on the track? I have found the turbo version is quicker by about 3 seconds per lap if I run both in automatic. If I run manual with the supercharger and shift early I can get within a few 10ths of the turbo but not on every track.

So back to my original question, can you make changes to the suspension or LSD to coax more speed out of a car? Or are you at the mercy of the torque and hp curves of the car's engine, therefore making tuning pointless and PP racing simply a factor of finding the fastest car for a given level. In the case of 450pp racing it appears to be the NSX which will run fast even in the hands of an amateur.

 

[D_M]

chuyler, what were the cars and pp setting? The person that was pulling away from you and your car?

 

[charliec]

So back to my original question, can you make changes to the suspension or LSD to coax more speed out of a car? Or are you at the mercy of the torque and hp curves of the car's engine, therefore making tuning pointless and PP racing simply a factor of finding the fastest car for a given level. In the case of 450pp racing it appears to be the NSX which will run fast even in the hands of an amateur.

Suspension and LSD shouldn't have any effect unless you're having a problem putting down power. I'm not sure if raising/lowering the car has an effect on the aerodynamics or not.

Also, different cars (presumably) have different aerodynamics, maybe your car isn't very slippery and it's hurting it at higher speeds? Just a thought.

You could also try giving yourself slightly longer lower gears so you could shorten the 5th and 6th gears, maybe get a bit more top end acceleration?

 

[chuyler1]

450 performance points on racing soft tires.

Watch this video. Boost was on so it isn't a perfect example but pay attention at about 8:50. I got a perfect turn before the straight was on the power before the MR2 MKII but as we went up the straight he pulled away from me. I should have been able to use some draft to get around him. Earlier in the race he passed me like I was standing still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yksTNsWz88

I've seen the same happen to me in other cars where I get a perfect run coming out of a corner, enough to almost scrape the bumper on the car in front, only to have them pull away from me.

 

[esoxhntr]

I'm willing to bet (and will check tonite) that the newer MR2 has a higher, broader torque/power curve at 450. I own both the '86 and the new one.

 

[chuyler1]

Another example (which I don't have a video of) was running laps at Monza. I had my '99 MR-S which is one of my faster 450pp cars and another driver had a Lotus Evora. Both fairly lightweight cars with decent handling. He was doing better in the chicanes than me and would catch up. But once we straightened he could not keep up with me. Even if he got the draft from behind it wasn't enough to pass. When I got the draft from him it would slingshot me several seconds ahead (then i'd lose ground in the chicane again).

If both cars are theoretically tuned for equal PP, shouldn't the draft always give the car behind enough boost to overtake another car?

 

[esoxhntr]

re: evora. maybe he had his gears set too long resulting in poor accel, maybe he had his downforce set high, thus sacrificing some PP from HP, and increasing drag, resulting in poor accell/top speed but a quick car through the turns. lots of variables.

 

[chuyler1]

yeah, i guess that's a bad example. Come to think of it, I think he did have a wing.

One car I know for a fact loses time on straights is the Garaiya. When I race that car I typically play cat and mouse with people. Catching them on the turns, passing, only to be passed back when the track straightens out. I imagine the issue with that car is that it is simply too light and therefore only has about 200hp. That's plenty for low speed maneuvers but not enough to overcome wind resistance at high speeds. I use it on the 'ring and gain a 5-10 second lead only to watch the cars blow by me on the straight. LOL.

 

[D_M]

Chuyler1

1. With boost on, any attemp to compare pp is questionable.
2. At Tsukuba, the mid-engine car that generates the most torque ealier in the rpm
range wins.
3. The other MR2 is running a stock wing, your not, so his extra pp went towards the
engine.

 

[wmwolverines]

Way too many variables without knowing the exact cars, modifications and tunes on all cars involved. Proper modifying and tuning will net you an extra few seconds a lap (2 minute lap)...

Also PP is really far from a perfect measure, some cars are just faster than others at the same PP. I've set up most of my cars to a certain PP [550] and some of the slowest are ~4 seconds slower on a short track, Deep Forest...

The tracks makes a huge difference too. Good handling cars prefer short tracks with lots of corners while higher horsepower cars will prefer longer tracks with long straightaways.

 

[esoxhntr]

2. At Tsukuba, the mid-engine car that generates the most torque ealier in the rpm
range wins.

very true, it's essentially drag races separate by low speed corners. explains why my trucks do well there.

 

[chuyler1]

Chuyler1

1. With boost on, any attemp to compare pp is questionable.
2. At Tsukuba, the mid-engine car that generates the most torque ealier in the rpm
range wins.
3. The other MR2 is running a stock wing, your not, so his extra pp went towards the
engine.

1, you're right, except if PP is close, the car behind should be able to pass. I've been running races without boost lately to remove that variable and I'm still seeing it happen occasionally.

2, good to know, i guess because the corners are tight and you actually use the mid rpm torque.

3, Forgot about that, the downforce was set to min (5) but it still factors in. I have since removed it since I don't need it for racing soft tires. It was on there from a sport soft tune I did.

The one car i don't have in any videos because it disappears on me is the NSX. That car, and everyone in my nightly lobby agrees is the defacto fastest car at this level for most tracks. I've seen people all over the track in those kicking up dirt and spinning out...but still running faster laps. I personally refuse to drive it because I'd rather have the challenge of tuning something else to be just as fast. But I'm at a roadblock when it comes to power. I can dial in the suspension pretty well, I'm good on the brakes, I know most tracks well...but getting passed on the straight after you out race someone on the rest of the track is just plain frustrating!

But I play to learn, not to win. So if there is a way to pick certain mods or tune the suspension/lsd or transmission in a way that will give me an edge in an unlikely car...I'd like to learn how.

Back to transmission...I typically tune so i come close to but don't hit the rev limiter on a given track. Is this the best approach or should I run taller gears? I've done some experimenting of my own but haven't come to any concrete conclusions.

 

[D_M]

chuyler1, the NSX is a very good handling car. So you need to start with that platform as well. The Lotus Evora, M3CSL, and the premium M3 puts up a good fight. You need to tune your low pp cars without the spoiler. The gears depend on the track. For tracks like Eiger and Tsukuba, just before you bounce off the limiter at the end of the longest straight. For tracks where there will be drafting opportunities, I usually set the trans to be about 10-12 mph higher than my top speed.

 

[oppositelock]

hp sells cars, torque wins races.

This saying needs to die off. Whenever someone says it I want to punch kittens. Somehow it gets propagated ad infinitum by greasy old farts whose idea of performance is a smog-era 6:1 compression iron head V8 with a 2 barrel carb and 2.73 gears. Shelby was a smart guy but not everything he said back in the Precambrian Period should be taken as gospel. If he was trying to espouse the benefits of a wide powerband he did so poorly. It should be filed away with Enzo Ferrari's quote: "Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines."

/rant

 

[chuyler1]

how about the phrase "There is no replacement for displacement"? It's been clear for decades that the turbocharger is in fact a replacement.


...but anyway. I wish you could do side by side comparisons of the hp/torque graphs in GT5. I may sketch a few out to see how cars that are faster compare to cars that are not. Unfortunately the scale of the graphs changes for each car so its tough to compare even by switching back and forth.

 

[zero_speed]

It sounds like your gearing. You want to set your gears as long as possible. This will allow you to keep the car in its powerband longer.

 

[oopssorryy]

Well I know that the MR2 G Limited '97 starts off in life near 200HP and 200 ft-lbs, and at a higher weight than the old '86. If the racer has used a ballast, your problem is even worse. He probably just has way more horsepower and torque than you, while maintaining a decent HP/Weight ratio. Combined that with a good suspension and LSD tuning and you've got a really monster on your hands, and I think that is what's happening to you.

 

[esoxhntr]

how about the phrase "There is no replacement for displacement"? It's been clear for decades that the turbocharger is in fact a replacement.

I think the fact that the 97 MR2, with it's higher displacement of 2.0L and wider power band compared to the 86 with it's lower displacement of 1.6L pulling on you kinda proves that there still is no replacement for displacement.

 

[chuyler1]

I think the fact that the 97 MR2, with it's higher displacement of 2.0L and wider power band compared to the 86 with it's lower displacement of 1.6L pulling on you kinda proves that there still is no replacement for displacement.

...except that he had a turbocharger and I had a supercharger. In this game it seems the turbo trumps the sc on short tracks. On longer tracks with taller gearing the sc might gain some ground but at this power level I rarely see speeds over 140mph.

 

[esoxhntr]

typically superchargers produce a wider powerband than turbochargers at the expense of peak power. this is due to the turbo having to spool up with exhaust gases while the SC is belt driven. the bigger the turbo, the more lag it will have too. so if anything, the SCed MR2 should have a wider power band than the same car with a comparable turbo. i have not looked at the curve in GT5 though.

 

[chuyler1]

You are correct. I have the N/A '86 MR2 which allowed me to put a stage 3 turbo on it. Using the customizable tranny ensures short gears near redline and the car runs much quicker than the supercharger edition when both are tuned for 450pp. I figured this out after recording the battle with the '97 MR2 and as a result i've stopped using the SC edition.

 

[esoxhntr]

excellent.. other than 1st gear at the start of race, when our rpms are lower, turbo > sc just about every time for track racing.

just wondering, at 450pp are you able to run more peak HP in the Turbo MR2 vs the SC MR2? i guess it dpeends on the weight of the two cars too.