Dampers

[2GT2]

I'm a lil' bit confused about the damper settings. Some says that dampers are stronger with level 1, some that with level 10... I agree to second but i'm not sure... The question is - is it true that the hardest (slowest) compression is with rebound level 10 and fastest (most powerful) extraction is with bound level 10? Write please i really want to know the true!
P.S. The second problem is that some says that bound is extraction and rebound is compression, some - that bound is compression and rebound is extraction... However the first question is more important to me.

 

[sucahyo]

When the damper value separated into bound and rebound, it means that the reaction for damper compression and extraction is separated. Both work the same way. Faster reaction (soft damping) happen when both value set to soft setting. Slower reaction (hard damping) happen when both value set to hard setting. If you use hard for bound and soft for rebound or vice versa, although the car reaction will be different, you will get medium reaction. See my last video too.

So far the only one that think damper 10 is softer than 1 in GT2 (and GT4) is me. I don't see anyone else think this way too from thousands of gtplanet member yet.

In GT1 it is obvious that softer make the car bouncing (and recover from it) longer.

In other GT, it depend from what you believe, this is what I feel:
bouncing after driving through bump happen more and longer using 10 damper value.
the car shake up and down more using 10 damper value on road irregularities.
the steering feel more disconnected using 10 damper value.
in order to mimic the behaviour of damper 1 in GT1 we need at least damper 17 at GT2, 10 is not enough, 0 is the other way around. where the behaviour of damper 1 in GT2 can be mimic with damper 8 in GT1.

GT1 setting:


GT2 setting:



GT1 R32 video

GT2 R32 video


The conclusion is depend on what you think of how damper works and how GT physics engine works.

I am calling damper 1 in GT1 is soft and decide that damper 10 in GT2 as soft because both show similarity in behaviour.

In PAL version the bounce, shake and hop is shown in double amount of NTSC 1.2 version. If you want to observe better, use PAL version.


video, bound feel as compression, rebound feel as extraction.

 

[FastEddie12]

Many of the arguments, some sound, others flawed, appear in this thread, which is about this same question in GT4. However, it's unlikely that PD suddenly turned all their settings upside down from one game to the other. Whatever Sucahyo says, and however pseudo-scientifically he puts it, 10 is almost certainly hard, and 1 is almost certainly soft.

 

[Tornado]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. They certainly did screw up the spring rate settings in GT4, so I suppose anything is possible. I do still disagree with sucahyo on this issue, though.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'm a lil' bit confused about the damper settings. Some says that dampers are stronger with level 1, some that with level 10... I agree to second but i'm not sure... The question is - is it true that the hardest (slowest) compression is with rebound level 10 and fastest (most powerful) extraction is with bound level 10? Write please i really want to know the true!
P.S. The second problem is that some says that bound is extraction and rebound is compression, some - that bound is compression and rebound is extraction... However the first question is more important to me.

This discussion began last year. There was a guy over at www.racing-line.org named Shifter. He wound up taking over the website from the original owner in 2004 and he professed that in GT2, all the damper settings are backwards. It caused a lot of arguments, obviously.

So last year I said "Hey Sucahyo, can you check this out on your computer program?" and sure enough he got the results above. Personally, I still go by the traditional belief: 1=softer and 10=stiffer. I gotta admit that Sucahyo's demonstration on toe settings is pretty interesting (if you take a car and give it tons of negative toe {more than the game allows} the wheels will point outward instead of inward--which means toe settings in GT2 are definitely backwards).

All this has been proven on some sort of computer program Sucahyo has...so the question is how accurate is the program?

So far as the second question goes: Bound=compression and Rebound=extraction.

 

[sucahyo]

Well, I already talk long about damper, so I try to make this brief.

An emulator will not change how the handling of the game, controller do. If the car can't flip in console, it can't flip too in emulator. A bug in emulator usually caused by display problem or game halt, never see a bug that can cause the game behave differently except for some timer problem. What we can do in emulator is possible to do in console, sadly, no gameshark owner or creator has interest in doing this. With GT4, strangely, there is no other people in this thousands member forum who can play GT4 in a PC. Where I can succesfully play (race) it in two computer, in 1fps crappy computer and 10 fps friend's computer.

I have PAL version, the car behave worst than NTSC 1.2 version. This make damper tuning easier to see or feel. Despite what other think, I don't find any difference in handling feel between bumper view and outside car view.

Still, I always learn something new when revisiting this. Like what I just notice when making the above video:
- increasing ride height make the car jump easier and higher, I notice this before on GT4 M3 competition but confirm it now.
- 30 bound and 15 rebound has much much better handling than 15 bound and 30 rebound. Part of the car (either left right or front rear) with high rebound will send force to the other part more than part with higher bound. On my next tuning I will experiment how the effect of lower rebound compare to lower bound in normal damper tuning.
- beside spring rate, camber and ride height, balancing car can be done with damper too, sadly the range of value available normally is not sufficient.
- very high damper make car feel soft.


Play Viper racing too guys, you will learn a lot better. If your way of tuning do not work in this game, you understand it wrong. This game created by Papyrus programmer who rebel to create MGI. I feel it more closer to real life than GT2. But nothing can beat GT2, even if it's not perfect, it's still fun , I just have to know what is not real .

 

[Tornado]

Viper Racing may be a bit too old for people to know of it's immeaurable greatness, sucahyo, but I agree with you. The tuning and physics in Viper Racing were rediculously realistic, far better than GT4.

 

[sucahyo]

Viper Racing may be a bit too old for people to know of it's immeaurable greatness, sucahyo, but I agree with you. The tuning and physics in Viper Racing were rediculously realistic, far better than GT4.

It still being played online by people in vrgt.com though, with additional car like porsche, ferrari or supra and also additional track (maybe real life one too).
I have problem just going straight when first drive it .

 

[Tornado]

Do you play it online? I know that there is still an online community for it, and I typically use the Ferrari 250 GTO user-car. The user-made real life tracks like Monza are really well done.

 

[sucahyo]

No, since I don't have analog controller I don't think I can compete at all .

Yes, I agree that user track are well done too 👍.

 

[Scaff]

I'm a lil' bit confused about the damper settings. Some says that dampers are stronger with level 1, some that with level 10... I agree to second but i'm not sure... The question is - is it true that the hardest (slowest) compression is with rebound level 10 and fastest (most powerful) extraction is with bound level 10? Write please i really want to know the true!
P.S. The second problem is that some says that bound is extraction and rebound is compression, some - that bound is compression and rebound is extraction... However the first question is more important to me.

You may have started something here, and I'm quite sure that sucahyo whould know that I had to add my thoughts.

After hundereds of hours of testing across the entire GT series I do not believe in any way shape or form that dampers are reversed in any version of GT.

This is a conversation that has a couple of threads dedicated to it, the GT4 one being one of the largest. It does also cover a few GT2 tests as well, those with a bit of spare time may want to have a read of the following.

Is Damper 10 softer than 1?

A quick look at Dampers across the GT series

I do also feel that I have to add that I personally have to add that I have a major concern with the use of extreme values in hacked cars; while its easy to say that they have no effect on how the cars react I've yet to see proof of that. In addition its well known that certain values when hacked actually run on a cyclical range, and as such two values close together may actually give very different results (for info on this simply have a read around the Hybriding threads).

I also feel I have to point out that I have a major issue with a lot of sucahyo's GT2 testing methods, as he runs GT2 on a PC a lot of his past testing was done using either an 'AI' bot to drive the car or when he drove the car himself it was using the keyboard as an interface. In my mind this removes the driving feel and feedback for the equation and leaves just visual information to work with, which quite simply is not enough in any of the GT series (or the real world for that matter), feel is an integral part of tuning.

In closing GT damper tuning (across the entire series) is as follows:

Lower values = Softer damping

Higher values = Firmer damping

Bound = Compression

Re-bound = Expansion


Regards

Scaff


Edited to add

They certainly did screw up the spring rate settings in GT4, so I suppose anything is possible.

Sorry but this I would also disagree with. If you avoid the use of extreme settings and the spring rate tuning is balanced with the other suspension areas in reacts exactly as it should.

Part if the problem in this area is that prior to GT4 the spring rates were easily tuned, soft = more grip at that end, firmer = less grip at that end, and as a basic rule that is correct. However in the real world its far from that simple, extreme settings and the suspension layout of a car can have a major impact on how this works and the effects you will get.

This has been discussed long and hard in the 'GT4 Suspension tuning is backwards thread' and its far from certain that PD messed this up, I would personally argue that they got it far better in GT4 that any previous version. In that you can't now just make blanket assumptions and/or tune by formula, a lot more thought and consideration has to go into a tune to get the results you want.

This discussion began last year. There was a guy over at www.racing-line.org named Shifter. He wound up taking over teh website from the original owner in 2004 and he professed that in gT2, all the damper settings are backwards. It caused alot of arguments, obviously.

Just had a look over at racing line and the forums are currently down, but I did have a look at the tuning section (credited as Shifter's work) and the guides that are said to cover GT2, GT3 and GT4 are quite clearly written from the perspective of lower = softer and higher = firmer as far as damper settings go.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Just had a look over at racing line and the forums are currently down, but I did have a look at the tuning section (credited as Shifter's work) and the guides that are said to cover GT2, GT3 and GT4 are quite clearly written from the perspective of lower = softer and higher = firmer as far as damper settings go.

He may have changed his perspective then. I joined racing-line back in October of 2004 under the name Richard Pitty and there were all sorts of flame-wars going on. People were being banned by Shifter by the fistful if they merely disagreed with him, and one of the thoughts he had was: dampers are reversed in GT2. I remember that clearly.

It wouldn't surprise me that the forums are down there, hundreds of folks left racing-line after Shifter took over, and if they didn't leave, they got banned. And then someone hacked into the racing-line website records! Which meant if you had a lap record posted on that website chances are it was suddenly gone. A lot of the people who left racing-line went over to Gran Turismo X or GT Network (I forget which).

 

[Scaff]

He may have changed his perspective then. I joined racing-line back in October of 2004 under the name Richard Pitty and there were all sorts of flame-wars going on. People were being banned by Shifter by the fistful if they merely disagreed with him, and one of the thoughts he had was: dampers are reversed in gT2. I remember that clearly.

It wouldn't surprise me that the forums are down there, hundreds of folks left racing-line after Shifter took over, and if they didn't leave, they got banned. And then someone hacked into the racing-line website records! Which meant if you had a lap record posted on that website chances are it was suddenly gone. Alot of the people who left racing-line went over to Gran Tursismo X or GT Network (i forget which).

I can remember you talking about this a while ago, it struck me then (and still does) that it must take a special kind of person to take over a descent site and drive it that far into the ground that quickly.

And over something like that, amazing. I mean suchyo and I totally disagree on the damper subject, and I respect his opinion on the matter, I just do not in any way agree with him. I'm quite sure he may feel the same, but thats part of what makes GT Planet the place it is.

Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

I don't agree there is cyclical range in tuning. Atleast I don't see it yet. From what I know, every medium (normal range) value has less effect than max value (hacked range).

Well, at least we all agree that bound is compression . For the first question 2GT2, just use whatever damper combination you feel good. Don't concern too much on how it simulated, just test all available combination. If you use semi racing suspension, you only have 100 combination. Testing 10% (10 representable combination) is enough if you can guess from what you already did what the rest 90% of combination will do .

 

[TMM]

I can remember you talking about this a while ago, it struck me then (and still does) that it must take a special kind of person to take over a descent site and drive it that far into the ground that quickly.

And over something like that, amazing. I mean suchyo and I totally disagree on the damper subject, and I respect his opinion on the matter, I just do not in any way agree with him. I'm quite sure he may feel the same, but thats part of what makes GT Planet the place it is.

Regards

Scaff

Yes, friendly...

 

[Scaff]

I don't agree there is cyclical range in tuning. Atleast I don't see it yet. From what I know, every medium (normal range) value has less effect than max value (hacked range).

You can disagree all you like, then go and have a good read of the Hybrids sub-forum and Famine's guides to them, in particular the use of the MK program to edit values. He covers cyclical values in this, they certainly do exist in the system.

Well, at least we all agree that bound is compression . For the first question 2GT2, just use whatever damper combination you feel good. Don't concern too much on how it simulated, just test all available combination. If you use semi racing suspension, you only have 100 combination. Testing 10% (10 representable combination) is enough if you can guess from what you already did what the rest 90% of combination will do .

Yes bound is compression and I would agree with sucahyo that you should always tune by testing and feel, just don't jump to extreme values, work your way up carefully and you will be able to see & feel the changes.

Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

about cyclical value, this is what I found using search:
Notes on downforce values

So once again, downforce values are cyclical. They can be set anywhere from 0 (ini =-1) to 255, at which point they reset and start all over again. The car with 3.00/3.50 DF behaved like a car with 0.45/0.95 downforce, because it WAS a car with 0.45/0.95 downforce.

This need a bit explanation.
Number in computer is stored as group of true and false, 8 instance of true false can store digit from 0 to 255, this is called byte. It seem MK's program use word, 2 byte merged, where GT3 seem to concern only the half part of it.
So number 3.00/3.50 (300 and 350 stored in word) has byte:
300 = 001 044 usually written as 2C01 in playstation (1&2) memory
350 = 001 094 usually written as 5E01 in playstation (1&2) memory

It seem that cyclical value happen because the GT3 code only read half (Least Significant Byte) of downforce setting in MK's programme.

Famine's experiment show that downforce value between 0 to 255 in incremental, even when the value is outside the normal setting range, it still work consistently. Higher value equal to more downforce until it go over 255. I am concluding the same thing for damper or other setting, since I don't experiment accross 255 boundary.

So, I still don't agree that tuning is cyclical since value between 0 and 255 is not cyclical. I will update this again when I found where the downforce code for GT4, which should be easy now since I can make armax code work for my emulator.


BTW, I found out that Famine call my damper multipler as grip . And he has the same conclution as me, those value has something to do with damper .

*update:
The downforce of front and rear is stored in only two bytes (one byte each) on GT4. I guess this would be true for GT3 since GT2 also like this. This make any MSB value inputted from MK's programme will be ignored. The GT3 code will accept only the LSB part.

Cyclical tuning happen because MK's programme behaviour, not because GT3 code.

 

[Scaff]

I am concluding the same thing for damper or other setting, since I don't experiment accross 255 boundary.

So, I still don't agree that tuning is cyclical since value between 0 and 255 is not cyclical. I will update this again when I found where the downforce code for GT4, which should be easy now since I can make armax code work for my emulator.

Good expliantion, but by your own admission (above) you don't know this 100% for sure, and its this doubt over hacked/extreme values that casts the shadow for me.

Its why I don't take results fro them at face value and will certainly continue to question them.

Additionally as I have said before I don't believe they are required in tuning or determining the effects of tuning, the senses given to us and the range offered currently in the GT series are enough.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I can remember you talking about this a while ago, it struck me then (and still does) that it must take a special kind of person to take over a descent site and drive it that far into the ground that quickly.

And over something like that, amazing. I mean suchyo and I totally disagree on the damper subject, and I respect his opinion on the matter, I just do not in any way agree with him. I'm quite sure he may feel the same, but thats part of what makes GT Planet the place it is.

Regards

Scaff

Exactly. I disagree with many people here, and likewise vice versa. It's being an adult to be able to disagree with someone without damage.

It crossed my mind at the time to cut & paste some of the things that were being said between Shifter and his few supporters (the racing-line veterans started calling them "goons") against the people who disagreed because it was so bizarre. I wish i had done it. Shifter and his goons systematically deleted any negative posts so there is nothing left of the carnage!

 

[TMM]

It crossed my mind at the time to cut & paste some of the things that were being said between Shifter and his few supporters (the racing-line veterans started calling them "goons") against the people who disagreed because it was so bizarre. I wish i had done it. Shifter and his goons systematically deleted any negative posts so there is nothing left of the carnage!

It's my forum & you can't come in if you disagree with me...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

It's my forum & you can't come in if you disagree with me...

well of course, I would NEVER disagree with TMM.

 

[AngelCreator]

I may not know much about tuning but in my test on both PS1 and PC
I have found that the car had less move ment with the shocks set at
1 than set at 10 at lease for the bound side. Now does this mean the
shock are harder because the car moves less?

 

[sucahyo]

From my point of view, it is, but from what I swallow everyone in GT4 damper argumentation telling me not to tune base from visual only because visual representation from GT engine could be different from controller feel. They tell me to ignore it.

I experience riding bike with drained damper oil. It look that way in real life, you can tell by comparing normal and busted side by side at fast bumpy straight. At 60mph, a working damper will stop the spring movement enough, where the drained one just follow the road rise and down franticaly and wouldn't stop swinging.

Feel closely that way too in bumpy corner, although I only take it at 35mph in real life. It is scarry enough to feel your bike skipping the road because the wheel keep swingin up and down fratically at corner at that speed. Good thing I have "good" experience with RR ('85 vespa scooter).

 

[Scaff]

I may not know much about tuning but in my test on both PS1 and PC
I have found that the car had less move ment with the shocks set at
1 than set at 10 at lease for the bound side. Now does this mean the
shock are harder because the car moves less?

Not neceserally, it depends on what force has caused the movement.

In the real world suspension movement occurs becasue of two basic types of force, that caused by bumps and imperfections in the road and that caused by load transfer under braking, acceleration and/or cornering.

If we deal with the first one of these, bumps and imperfections. When a bump is encountered it will try and force the unsprung weight of the car (tyre, wheel and suspension below the spring) upwards. If the suspension is soft then the unsprung mass can move to react to the force, which means the wheel tracks over the bump and the cars body remains stable.

If however the suspension is too stiff to react to the bump, then the force must go somewere, which is through to the sprung mass (the rest of the car) which will result in visiable movement in the car itself. You can see this in motorsport when a car rides the curb and the entire car corner or side leaves the ground.


The second type of force is that caused by load transfer under braking, acceleration and/or cornering forces. This forces the sprung mass down onto the unsprung mass, how quickly and how much movement (or roll) you see depends on the suspension set-up. Stiff suspension will result in little visable roll and what does occur will do so slowly; soft suspension will allow very visable roll and a quick reaction to the load. It is important to keep in mind that the amount of load transfered will not change, irrelivent of how soft or stiff the suspension is set-up.

Obviously if you are cornering, accelerating or braking over a bumpy track you have both forces acting at once, which can make them very difficult to read visually.


Now the problem with the entire GT series is that its is extremely difficult to see changes in this movement, and what we can see can be 100% trusted. What I advocate is the use of the full range of information when tuning suspension - visual, noise, feel, handling balance, etc.

I have spent hundereds, if not thousands of hours tuning across the entite GT series and am quite happy that GT dampers follow lower value = softer and high values = firmer. If you are interested in a more detailed discussion onthe subject I suggest the GT dampers thread linked above.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I may not know much about tuning but in my test on both PS1 and PC
I have found that the car had less move ment with the shocks set at
1 than set at 10 at lease for the bound side. Now does this mean the
shock are harder because the car moves less?

In theory, the softer bound shocks would allow more movement in the suspension, and less movement shows up visually on your car. Stiffer shocks would allow less suspension movement, which means a rougher ride and your car will visually shake more.