Daytona Prototypes

[JohnBM01]

As mentioned by (http://www.multimaticmotorsports.com/daytona/index.shtml), here is a definition of a Daytona Prototype, as exclusively featured in the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series:

Daytona Prototypes

- Daytona prototypes are the new-featured class of North America's Rolex Sports Car Series.
- The Rolex Sports Car Series is promoted and sanctioned by The Grand American Road Racing Association, a sister company of NASCAR.
- The series will be contested over twelve events at prominent venues throughout North America, including the world famous Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona.
- Daytona Prototypes offer highly competitive racing and are generating enormous fan excitement and media exposure.
- NASCAR-style brand identification will be promoted to encourage fan loyalty.

I am a bigger fan of the American Le Mans Series, but I opened this thread to talk about Daytona Prototypes, for those who have something to contribute about DP class cars. Reply now if you would like to discuss Daytona Prototypes.

 

[The359]

They're crap, pure and simple.

 

[toler]

^ agreed. those cars are just plain ugly. i don´t see a need for a series full of ugly cars like that. racecars should not just be fast but also look good imo. also if you wanna race aporsche powered car why not take a porsche?

 

[Sleek Stratos]

I'm hoping they'll mutate over time into something more appealing to the eyes. They look like concept cars gone horribly awry right now.
The racing isn't that bad at least.

 

[JohnBM01]

But for America, would you say that the Daytona Prototypes are a not bad attempt at trying to bring a special grade of pure race car we can all appreciate, Sleek?

To me, I don't really like them either. I'll make a future topic on them, but you know what I really miss in sportscar racing? GT1 race cars. THEY are the real closed-top prototypes in the respect of having a car that can are street legal. Even though GT1 cars weren't the beautiful Grand Touring Prototypes, it would still baffle you as to how a car company can actually research a race car that can also make for a wonderful street car for people who have the money to burn.

Daytona Prototypes are basically our saving grace for not having a real spec set of sportscars that America can be proud of. I'm sorry, but I've found a better sportscar series that isn't getting as much attention and is NOT a sister or related company of a popular oval racing series. DPs can try, though. Some are nice, some only wish they were. Your call, GTP.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Daytona Prototypes

- Daytona prototypes are the new-featured class of North America's Rolex Sports Car Series.
- The Rolex Sports Car Series is promoted and sanctioned by The Grand American Road Racing Association, a sister company of NASCAR.
- The series will be contested over twelve events at prominent venues throughout North America, including the world famous Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona.
- Daytona Prototypes offer highly competitive racing and are generating enormous fan excitement and media exposure.
- NASCAR-style brand identification will be promoted to encourage fan loyalty.

Ah... this explains a lot... I suppose as long as it says "Nascar" on it all the nascar fans would flock to it even if they are ugly ass cars.

Anyway, Well let see I believe they said it was something along the lines of "racing is getting expensive and not many people can race if they don't have the money" So their response was to create this new class or series. So, I'm thinking someone forgot to send out the corresponding memo stating "it's going to be a prototype but that also means you have put some ****ing effort into the exterior body".

 

[Firestarter75]

I can't stand the damned things, they need some balls. They slowed down GT cars substantially just so the GT's wouldn't walk all over them. THen even that didn't work so they drastically cut the GT's fuel cell capacity. At Mid-Ohio you can spend 45K on a decent Formula Mazda and lap faster then a DP, that is sad.

 

[JohnBM01]

So Firestarter, if you love road racing of almost all kinds, I'm actually appreciative of GARRA's efforts to make a GT/sportscar championship. Nowadays, it's been dumbed down to a GT race series. They basically took away the open-top sportscar. And when you do that, you don't have any traditional sportscar racing.

So Firestarter, would you consider these Daytona Prototypes as being the death of an all-or-mostly-American sportscar series? Do you think that GARRA is building a sportscar series and then modifying it so that it claims to be better than anyone else's? In other words, do you think sportscar racing in GARRA is being Americanized? By the way... GARRA = Grand American Road Racing Association.

 

[Firestarter75]

I think they are trying to do that, and at the same time get rid of the ALMS if possible. The only problem is, the amount of spectators at a Grand-Crap race is horrible. Well below what is necessary to think about making money, but then when you have a France driving and Nascrap backing who needs fans? I also think its bad when qualifying is cancelled due to rain, ala WGI. I also found it humorous the press was all over Tony Stewart and Dale Jr at Daytona, yet the man who made sure they were in a position to win and drove in the worst conditions was Andy Wallace. That was quietly left out of the reports, then again guess we can't let some dang furener upstage Nascraps best.

 

[Fogelhund]

Hmm. I don't like the NASCAR monopolization techniques they've used to marginalize and control North American Racing.

I don't like the way that they have used Grand-Am to further this cause. This is very much like the IRL vs. CART wars, particularly the way that money have been offered as an incentive to cross over. Sponsors have been placed on cars, driver's have been offered up.....

I don't like the appearance of the cars. I don't like the way that the yellow flags appear to be dropped at convenient times, for thin reasons. (Yes there has been some very legitimate times, such as the last yellow at Daytona for the Revere).

I don't like the way that the organizers have treated entrants on an ongoing basis. The GT classes are heading in a direction I don't support.

The racing has been close, but not of enough interest to hold me to the TV for long enough. That this series thins the ranks of potential sportscar series entrants/sponsors.., from what I believe Sportscar racing should be, is an even sorer spot.

 

[JohnBM01]

Which is why I love the ALMS more than the Rolex Sports Car series. Hardly anyone cares about the Daytona road course anymore. Watkins Glen has been dumbed down to a NASCAR playground, and the Infineon Raceway/Sears Point race basically owns Watkins Glen. The best year of Grand-Am was the first year, 2000. I remember watching ESPN for segmented live coverage of the race. I mean, the Cadillac prototype debut (had GREAT fuel mileage), Team Oreca winning the race, my hometown sportscar team Risi Competizione was competing with that beatufiul Ferrari 333SP (without that Judd engine), later in the year was the Saleen SR in endurance racing... I mean, Grand-Am... look at what you destroyed! I mean, the open-top sportscars have basically fallen into neglect. It's fallen into almost as much neglect as some of the facilities at the Autopolis Circuit.

I mean, I'd rather watch European-style road racing that ISN'T tied down to be Americanized. For example, when I have sushi like I did this past weekend, I traditionally eat them with chopsticks. I don't want to have them with spoon and fork. What I was trying to say is that tradition goes a long way. And what would have been a great idea and maybe even a great oppurtunity to have a true American sportscar series other than the ALMS... is basically cancer to sportscar racing. The only advantage GARRA has over ALMS is that it has a production-car based road racing series. And if you know your racing, it was formerly the Motorola Cup.

So Daytona Prototypes... not a lot of power, nothing REALLY eye-catching, basically, it's another American racing series that is based on passing. Wake me when it gets interesting.

 

[Darin]

the DP cars are cheap racing. Thats all they are. Cheap racing.

 

[kart racer]

So would you say that NASCAR is tring to be like the FIA in controlling all the racing in N.America?

 

[JohnBM01]

Good question, Kart Racer. Believe it or not, I don't think NASCAR is trying to become its own FIA. I just think that NASCAR is trying to be this empire, this franchise, this... whatever term you like to use. I don't think NASCAR is trying to rule American racing. If it did, Bobby Labonte would be racing in the Champion ADT Audi R8, Jimmie Johnson would race a Subaru Impreza in SCCA Pro Rally, Jeff Gordon would race in the Porsche Rennsport Reunion in a Porsche 962, and... well, imagine the possibilities. All NASCAR is trying to do, in my view, is try to become the most successful SPORT so it can challenge the NBA, the NFL, the MLB, and maybe even the NHL (even though some say the NHL is slowly dying). Drags and ovals rule America, so NASCAR wants to take advantage of those as much as possible. The long straights at Talladega can make for some serious drafting, while the curves of most ovals will test the cornering ability of the 3400 lb, V-8 powered monsters. NASCAR is just trying to be its own series, and despite my sportscar loyalties, I'd have to say that NASCAR is possibly THE motorsport in America with all the marketing and support it gets.

So how does that tie into Daytona Prototypes? Well, it's simple. Bill France wanted to come up with a sportscar series during the year the ALMS debuted in 1999. In 2000, he created a sportscar series that's basically an all-or-mostly-American series that NASCAR fans and sportscar afficionados can respect. And how does NASCAR tie into this? Remember all the NASCAR racers who tried out races? Basically, NASCAR wants to create its own series and rake in the greenbacks. And since the spiritual home for Grand-Am is at Daytona, it basically means that you're in NASCAR country, and the racing couldn't be any better from an American racing standpoint.

So, I don't think it's trying to be its own sanctioning body. IMSA and the SCCA are, but not NASCAR.

 

[JAGUAR]

FIA are agoverning body overseeing safety etc. They do not actually control all European race series.

NASCAR is a company that wants to gain as much market share as possible.

G/A may have a large number of DPs racing now, but the fans are still not interested. One DP is the equivalent of a GT 911/360, not an LMP1/2/GTS car.

They are simple, 'cheap', racing cars. GA is moving further away from the ALMS by the day.

GA is more of a rival for Trans-Am than the ALMS these days.

 

[TheCracker]

Daytona Prototypes is the 'dumbing down' of sportscar racing, the cars are slow and hellishly ugly. They have even stopped any new chassis manufacturer from joining the series - making it practically a one-make series. I really can't see the point in it. Unlike GT racing, or even Nascar there is nothing for the spectator to relate to, they don't relate to and kind of road car and the few companies who do make chassis have very little 'history' of sportscar manufacturing, unlike Pescarolo, Lola or even Dome that fans can identify with.

 

[JohnBM01]

Grand-Am has only two things over the ALMS. The first is that beautiful Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant in Kart Racer's native Canada. The other is a lower-class series that utilizes mostly commercially-available cars and put them in competition. To me, the second one is a big plus because it means more racing for you to see. It also means more oppurtunities for racers to step up. And Kart Racer asked if NASCAR is trying to be its own FIA, and I said that it wasn't. Grand-Am, with the ownership of NASCAR, is trying to become a marketing giant. Think of this pairing as Honda. Honda has made several items for people. They made cars, motorcycles, personal watercraft, scooters, ATVs, lawnmowers, outboard motors, and of course the lovable ASIMO robot. And Honda has done fairly well. I think NASCAR wants to pack a resume as good as Honda's, but in the sense of racing. I'll admit that NASCAR done pretty well at that.

As far as Daytona Prototypes go, no real styling goes into these cars. I think that it's a good idea to come up with Daytona Prototypes, but the designs on track aren't really catching my eye. It is instead an attempt at taking commercially-available cars and make them into GARRA's own GT1-spec cars. But when traditional open-top sportscars were fallen into neglect, Rolex Sports Car basically gone to Hell with Satan's pitchfork in its back- highly unlikely to escape. If I wanted to see hyped-up models of commercially-available cars, I'd rather see a Porsche 911 fully re-tuned and modified to become the alluring Porsche 911 GT1. I'd want to see a little Lotus Elise go from a "lightweight heavyweight" to the also lovely Lotus Elise GT1. From Toyota Celica to Daytona Prototype? Not really saying anything. Even I would like to see a Toyota Celica GT1 like sportscar racing in the late 1990s.

So to me, these prototypes are good ideas, but no real striking designs are out there.

 

[JohnBM01]

http://www.corvette.co.uk/gtp.html

The site above feautres a GTP of the 1980s. And if you ask me, these are a hell of a lot better than Daytona Prototypes. It's based on the Corvette of the 1980s. While GTPs nowadays seem more like pure prototypes with closed cockpits, they are the GTPs I know and love, and perhaps the only true prototypes based on production cars.

Daytona Prototypes, on the other hand, is more of taking production cars and making them into prototype race cars. And often times prototype race cars, especially GT1s and GT2s, look very close to production cars and powered with insane motors and beautiful handling. Personally with this GTP, I'm interested to see what a GTP of the Corvette C5R would be like. I don't know what team it was, but someone made a concept of the Ford Focus Daytona Prototype, and it actually looked more like the Focus hatchback, just with more bodywork. It looked better than the jalopy that they came out with. I think the team was Multimatic, but I'm not sure.

Anyhow, if they REALLY want to resemble production cars, this is a start from 20 years ago. Don't take the NASCAR route of pretending to "resemble" production cars.

 

[JohnBM01]

Reviving this topic, one Daytona Prototype was pretty interesting. I thought it was a Mosler MT900R, but it was a Daytona Prototype. These machines aren't very appealing to me, and their performance is nowhere near Le Mans racers. Now sure, this concept drives away from classical sportscars, but I don't think this is working very well. You want to edge out the LMPs and GTPs, at least look like the GTP race cars. The DPs just look like an imbreed of GTP and an LMP made into a saloon car.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

First off, most of you have been hellaciously under-informed about Daytona Prototypes. The cars are actually quite quick (lapping about as fast as the old Kudzu Mazda SRPII cars from the days when Grand Am was the other prototype racing series) and are very fun to drive for drivers.

The large greenhouse is mandated by GARRA so that a larger variety of drivers can participate without hesitation because their helmets will poke up into the intake or some other such nonsense. It's also because of a large steel "hoop" cage that is designed to protect the driver in a crash (like what could have happened had Luis Diaz hit the wall in that spin today) and keep chassis from being total write-offs after one hit.

After all, a chassis that can be rebuilt is a chassis that will keep racing. It's much better than situations like that LMP2 Lola B2K this year in ALMS where the carbon tub cracked and was irrepairable and the cracks were the cause of too many miles on the same chassis. That team, by the way, is as I recall unconfirmed for Sebring as their sponsorship may not allow for them to have the funds to buy a brand new Lola, Courage, or Lucchini.

The suspensions on the DP's are quite sophisticated, and most of the handling woes come from restricted aero packages (to promote close racing) and from a spec sized tire (to cut costs). Again, cutting costs puts more cars out on the track and closer racing puts more butts in the seats.

The reason that chassis constructors are limited in number to the current selection of Fabcar, Riley, Doran, Crawford, Picchio, and Chase is to prevent the market from flooding AND to keep homebrew specials that are unsafe or unfairly constructed from entering. There IS a seventh Daytona Prototype chassis on the drawing boards - from Sabre - that will be allowed to compete should any of the currently active constructors cease production.

So, if no more Chases beyond the single constructed chassis seen this year at Daytona are built, Sabre will be allowed to produce and sell the Sabre chassis. However, a team that has a Chase will still be allowed to compete with a Chase so long as there aren't Chases being built.

Again, it controls cost, keeps steady production going (with a limited number of suppliers, a good constructor - like Riley - can sell 15+ chassis to eager teams whereas if there were ten tons of suppliers, Riley might only sell one or two).

And for the guy who said that these constructors have very little history, let's get a little history lesson on each. Here's some past cars from Riley, Crawford, Doran, and Fabcar.

- Group 44 Jaguar XJR-5 - designed and built by Fabcar, 1985

- Chevy Intrepid GTP - designed and built by RMI (Riley Motorsports Incorporated)
- Riley & Scott MkIII - the single winningest WSC chassis type in IMSA.

- Crawford SSC2K - as seen here in Lista/Doran colors. High-downforce privateer chassis of which an indeterminate amount (possibly less than five) were built. Project dropped due to lack of interest and picked up by the influential Doran team for further development. Car was then returned to factory where it competed in Grand Am for one year under Crawford factory colors.
- Mazda RX792 - Crawford constructed chassis; first all carbon composite chassis in GTP racing built by a non-aerospace private company.

- Dallara LMP 001 - While Doran's history as a constructor is primarily in club racing where they've manufactured tube chassis for Nissan 240SX's and 300ZX's, as well as SCCA Sport 2000 chassis, it's their success at taking abandoned projects and making them function that really shows their ability.

Followers of international motorsport will recognize this Dallara as the very same car that Chrysler commissioned from Dallara for their short-lived Oreca Chrysler LMP program. This program used threee Dallara chassis with Mopar sprint car engines to go head to head with the Audi juggernaught and failed with a succession of blown engines save for a stand-out 4th place finish at Le Mans in 2001. Doran purchased chassis #001 from Oreca and brought it to Daytona, fitted with the reliable Judd V10 (which had been so formidable in overcoming the drag of the Crawford SSC2K chassis). After seeing the meager budgeted Doran overwhelmingly dominate Daytona, and qualify tenth at Sebring after outfitting the Judd with intake restrictors (an ALMS rule) - though the car was taken out of the race in a crash - Oreca returned with two cars in 2002, now with Judd power, and finished 5th and 6th, then abandoned the program, leaving Doran with the sole competitive Dallara.

Doran went on to take a commanding championship win in 2002's GARRA season, and returned to Sebring in 2003 hoping to catch a Le Mans invite, especially as they finished 7th overall after qualifying 8th. The car was much more competitive in ALMS this year thanks to MG badging the Judd engine, causing ALMS to loosen the intake restrictions. In ALMS competition that year, Doran also scored a 5th at Road Atlanta (qualifying 4th, losing one place to the Dyson MG/Lola).

Despite clear success in ALMS and GARRA, the ACO did not give an invite to Le Mans to the Lista/Doran team. Seeing this, and having debuted their JE4 Daytona Prototype chassis with great success (first Daytona Prototype to capture an overall win), Doran shelved their Le Mans plans with the MG-Judd/Dallara and concentrated on their GARRA Daytona Prototype program. They captured the 2003 GARRA Constructor's Championship (their first year as a constructor).


So, while I will admit they may not have the storied past of Lister, Lola, or Dallara
, the GARRA constructors are certainly no slouch when it comes to putting together an American race car and have been around the block in IMSA for quite some time. I'd like to see Dallara, Lister, Lola, G-Force, and many of the other chassis companies become GARRA constructors. But only if one of the current constructors stops building cars OR it's proven economically sound to expand from six constructors to, say, ten.

 

[kart racer]

I like the DP class.The cost to race one is lower than the prototypes,so this alone makes it more appealing to some teams.As we saw this year at Daytona.Now who dose everyone feel about the 2 class system?It looks like it will be a Porche class and just might keep other manufactures out. 👎 But all in all,they put on a good show.The ALMS is still #1 to me,but this is a close 2nd.

 

[dbartucci]

I saw a thing on the 24 hous of Daytona on Speed leading up to the 200, they focused heavily on the Tony Stewart and Chip Gnassi and talked about how the race would be featuring NASCAR, CART, etc. drivers all at once.