Deploy Those Suckers!

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Why is this a problem to you?

The Stingers are there for defense. No matter what you think of GW Bush, the US Army is not a bunch of AK-47-carrying militia commanded by a local warlord. They're not going to celebrate a night of revelry by randomly firing into the skies over the city. If there is an attack they will respond when ordered to. If not, they won't. They are a trained force of professional soldiers and among the best disciplined in the world.

What is your big problem with this?

In every war where strategic bombing was a possibility, cities have been protected by antiaircraft guns and/or SAMs. I know if I lived in DC I'd be less worried about the possibility of stray Stingers than I would be about another 737 being kamikaze into my neighborhood.
 
I don't know, Doug. I'm glad they're taking this stuff seriously for once. And you might want to take it a little more seriously, too. It gets to a point where all the clever arguments and relaivistic head games in the world amount to nothing but mental masturbation; watching your ass and taking action is all that matters. I think much of America is already smug and self assured again after 9/11. And I'm sure terrorists are counting on it.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke

What is your big problem with this?

What are we going to do with those weapons?!

Iraq has no weapon that can go farther than eastern Egypt, they've got no planes that can go anywhere undetected, and the terrorists are probably the same way - but of course, we'd use stingers if a terrorist got ahold of a Cessna.

If the administration has actual evidence that there's going to be some terrorism in Washington D.C., I'm sure the residents would love to know about it.
 
This is the unfortunate assumption that a lot of people make.
Washington DC has a few million people in it, and they are all smart individual you can reason with.

A person is an individual that you can reason with. People as a group are alot tougher to reason with. If Bush were to announce that "the Terrorists have planned a Gas attack on Washington DC in the next week" how many people do you think are going to stick around? 3/4 of the city would likely take their vacation that following week, and the other 1/4 would telecommute, or skip work.

For easily understandable reasons, the people of this nation needed to be told little amounts in small pieces that they can accept.

How come there has been a run on Duct tape and plastic? Because people think that they can duct tape the plastic over their windows to keep biological and chemical agents out of their house. From someone who has inhaled more than his share of CS Gas and built a few houses, the plastic is useless. If you repeat the wrong information enough times, people start to believe it.

If that actual evidence you talk of was deemed credible and issued as a priority warning, there'd be hysteria and mob scenes that would tear DC up.

What are we going to do with these weapons? Should a plane get hijacked and aimed at DC, I'd weigh the cost of letting that thing hit what it wanted or knocking it out of the sky. Blip, oh...Who pushed that button?

There are plenty of nasty individuals out there that want to harm you, me, and anyone else that is an American. For this reason alone, there should be a few more guys and gals in green camo giving you and me the right to spout of at the mouth.

This probably seems like an attack on you and I apologize for that. But it aggravates me when just a little bit of thought about what the second and third steps of a situation is not given.

AO
 
Sometimes it's tough to tell if something is paranoid but... 'tis better to err on the side of caution. Terrorist have already shown what they're willing to do.

Just be glad you don't live in Israel.
 
Originally posted by Der Alta
This is the unfortunate assumption that a lot of people make.
Washington DC has a few million people in it, and they are all smart individual you can reason with.

A person is an individual that you can reason with. People as a group are alot tougher to reason with. If Bush were to announce that "the Terrorists have planned a Gas attack on Washington DC in the next week" how many people do you think are going to stick around? 3/4 of the city would likely take their vacation that following week, and the other 1/4 would telecommute, or skip work.

For easily understandable reasons, the people of this nation needed to be told little amounts in small pieces that they can accept.

You do realise what you've said? You've said that simply because the administration doesn't want panic in Washington, it is going to put at risk the lives of every one of its citizens. No way. If there was going to be a terrorist attack in Washington in which a single person could die, it is the administration's job - if they know - to not let that happen. Who cares about panic, or people taking days off, when it can save even one life?

What are we going to do with these weapons? Should a plane get hijacked and aimed at DC, I'd weigh the cost of letting that thing hit what it wanted or knocking it out of the sky. Blip, oh...Who pushed that button?

Heh, it's much easier to deploy an airplane to take it out of the sky from the some of the most heavily-armed air bases in the east than to shoot at an airplane by a jeep-mounted missle. Both are probably equally as destructive, though, to people on the ground.

There are plenty of nasty individuals out there that want to harm you, me, and anyone else that is an American. For this reason alone, there should be a few more guys and gals in green camo giving you and me the right to spout of at the mouth.

This isn't my point - my point is that, except for a hijacked airplane for which the missles are largely un-necessary anyway due to fighter jets, the missles have no effect but to worry the citizens of our favourite (taxed, but not represented) city.
 
Originally posted by milefile


Just be glad you don't live in Israel.

If I hear that one more time...

I remember after September 11, I heard people actually saying 'This happens every day in Israel!'

No it doesn't. Idiots and the uninformed think it does, but in reality, September 11 was much more large-scale than any attack in Israel's history. According to the Jerusalem Post, it was more deadly than all attacks on Israel, combined, ever, in its history. That was on one day. Gir.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
If I hear that one more time...

I remember after September 11, I heard people actually saying 'This happens every day in Israel!'

No it doesn't. Idiots and the uninformed think it does, but in reality, September 11 was much more large-scale than any attack in Israel's history. According to the Jerusalem Post, it was more deadly than all attacks on Israel, combined, ever, in its history. That was on one day. Gir.

I wasn't talking about the number and nature of terror attacks. I was talking about the security precautions they live with on a day to day basis. Not to mention the threat. I'm glad I don't have to worry about some kook wearing a bomb taking out the food court at my local mall . . . or do I?
 
If it's gonna happen, there isn't a whole lot anyone is going to do about it anyway. If you really think about the possibility of an attack,when it does happen, you may as well say your goodby's. We as the general public are pretty much at the mercy of whatever may happen!
 
M5Power said:
You do realise what you've said? You've said that simply because the administration doesn't want panic in Washington, it is going to put at risk the lives of every one of its citizens. No way. If there was going to be a terrorist attack in Washington in which a single person could die, it is the administration's job - if they know - to not let that happen. Who cares about panic, or people taking days off, when it can save even one life?

I understand better than you realize what I siad. There is a theory called "Acceptable losses" that I am familiar with on a personal basis. It is an assessment concerning the whole rather than individual. The Administration knows that it cannot protect everybody, but it can minimize the risk to a greater number. I care about panic. When you have large numbers of people in a panic driven state it makes any situation convoluted beyond the original condition.

M5Power said:
Heh, it's much easier to deploy an airplane to take it out of the sky from the some of the most heavily-armed air bases in the east than to shoot at an airplane by a jeep-mounted missle. Both are probably equally as destructive, though, to people on the ground.

Wrong. You already new this. remember back a fewyears, when a Cessna crashed into the white house? In recent months two planes have gotten lost and wandered into Washington DC air space. In both cases, the Air force admitted that they could not respond in sufficient time to take out the plane before it reached a vital part of the city.

It is equally easy to lock onto and take out a target with Air to Air or SAM missle. Both use a similar tracking and targeting system. Moot point there.

M5 power counter spoke:
This isn't my point - my point is that, except for a hijacked airplane for which the missles are largely un-necessary anyway due to fighter jets, the missles have no effect but to worry the citizens of our favourite (taxed, but not represented) city.

You've relied on the "Jet to take out a plane" thought again. See my above point.

If anything, the people in DC should realize that those missles are there as protection. In my opinion they'll never get used. If everybody knows that we've got a massive SAM defense set-up around DC, Attackers will look elsewhere for a target.

I'm likley to be called an Idealistic for this, but I am a large supporter for training every individual how to use, operate and effectively control a handgun. When a person has completed extensive training, they are given the right to carry concealed weapons. Why have we never used Nuclear weapons? Because each and everyone of us knows the destructive power that they are capable of. If you were carrying a handgun and had thoughts of robbing a bank, but knew that at least 50% of the people in the bank were packing heat, would you have second thoughts?

Why are there Security personnel in Eurpoean airports, armed with Automatic weapons? Not to use in an emergency, but to show people what they will have to contend with should they do something stupid. Did you also know that every clip of ammunition that is handed out, is sealed? If you turn in a clip the has that seal broken, you've got papaerwork and interviews to do that give a reason why you broke that seal.

M5Power, open your eyes, take a look at the world around you. Those nasty individuals are everywhere. Look out for yourself, and those you love. The more information you have the better off you are.

AO
 
To be completely honest,... I don't have all the answers. But there is a fealing in my gut that says if we could rid the country of MOST concealable firearms, we'd be on the right track.

I see it in the same manor as trying to rid the world of weapons of mass distruction. Just like the great leap in devistation that can occur from a SAM vs. a Nuke, I see the same comparisson when comparing concealable guns vs. other concealables like knives. Fighting nukes with nukes is what got us into this mess in the first place. Your essentially wanting to do that with hand guns.

JMO,....
 
A disproportionate comaprison on my part. Not everybody in the worl has a Nuke. Everybody in the world could have a handgun.

Have you heard the phrase "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws would have guns." This may be old and archaic thinking, but it's true. How easy is it to get a hold of a weapon, when you don't abide by the rules? Really easy. that's where my thought process started.

How many times have you seen "cops" with someone brandishing a gun in a store clerks face? Would that person be so apt to do it, if they knew that of the 5 people in the store, all five where carrying?

Where my thoeyr falls apart is that each and every person would be required to learn how to operate, maintain and control a handgun. I'm still trying to figure out that part of it. Not a perfect plan, but it'll get there. After all, if Israel can require eveyr male between the age of 18 and 20 serve their country, we could require a few weekends of handgun training.

AO
 
Yes I can understand that,... but if our effort was concentrated on ridding these criminals and the streets of these weapons, we could manage. The day we invent a non-lethal, gun type weapon that cops can carry and use efficiently, will be the day this plan could work.

The problem with your plan is that you need to be "cynical" when thinking about it. There are a lot of psycho's that can convince the system to give them a gun permit. Do you want them to have the right to carry one? Do you have the balls to accept a duel? You know it's gonna be the old west all over again if that happened.
 
More concield weapons permits are a good thing. I have carried now for the last 21 years and on two occasions it has saved my life. I'd like to see mandatory training come with the permit. Anyway DER I find it hard to find fault with anything you said. Its hard for the layman to realize the tactical advantages of ground to air missles vrs air to air interception.
 
Originally posted by ledhed
I have carried now for the last 21 years and on two occasions it has saved my life.

Okay. I'm 32 and have never been in a situation where I needed a gun to stay alive. I don't think I ever will, either. I also think this is the case for almost everybody in America. Your statement, above, says more about you than guns.

So how did you end up in these two life or death situations?
 
Having helped operate my father's side business for several years, I can tell you first hand that there were half a dozen times when having a gun and the skill to use it properly would have definitely made the situation much better for us.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
Having helped operate my father's side business for several years, I can tell you first hand that there were half a dozen times when having a gun and the skill to use it properly would have definitely made the situation much better for us.

Okay then. I guess I'm just glad I haven't been in situations like that.

What sort of business?
 
Originally posted by Der Alta
I understand better than you realize what I siad. There is a theory called "Acceptable losses" that I am familiar with on a personal basis. It is an assessment concerning the whole rather than individual. The Administration knows that it cannot protect everybody, but it can minimize the risk to a greater number. I care about panic. When you have large numbers of people in a panic driven state it makes any situation convoluted beyond the original condition.


So, you believe it would be better not to warn anybody about a specific threat to where they live because you think they'll panic? Come on... we're talking about saving human lives here. At what point should the government begin with-holding information? At what point has it gone too far?

Wrong. You already new this. remember back a fewyears, when a Cessna crashed into the white house? In recent months two planes have gotten lost and wandered into Washington DC air space. In both cases, the Air force admitted that they could not respond in sufficient time to take out the plane before it reached a vital part of the city.

I'd love for the second part of that statement to be proven with actual facts, but as to the first part of that statement, that was years ago and since then the Air Force is on a much higher alert.

Not that a fellow on the ground could do any better than a fighter which couldn't respond quickly. He'd have to make a lot of decisions in a very short amount of time, including 'should I take down this airplane and kill a bunch of people on the ground?'

How many people - excepting those on board the plane - died in that White House crash?

It is equally easy to lock onto and take out a target with Air to Air or SAM missle. Both use a similar tracking and targeting system. Moot point there.

Proof... not that I question it...
 
Originally posted by ledhed
More concield weapons permits are a good thing. I have carried now for the last 21 years and on two occasions it has saved my life. I'd like to see mandatory training come with the permit. Anyway DER I find it hard to find fault with anything you said. Its hard for the layman to realize the tactical advantages of ground to air missles vrs air to air interception.

Are you calling me the layman? Dude, you spelled 'concealed' as 'concield.' You've shot people twice.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
You've shot people twice.
He didn't say that, now did he? I'm afraid you've jumped to that conclusion. He only said that being armed saved his life, not necessarily using that weapon.

And, milefile, the businesses were several self-service carwashes. Most times they were remarkably trouble-free; however, for a series of years we had a lot of trouble with vandalism, break-ins, and theft. We were also harrassed on numerous occasions while servicing them or making repairs. Spending a few nights in the utility room, armed with an accurate but effective pistol, could have convinced that trouble to move elsewhere.
 
I spelled a few words wrong that means I shoot people ? And I said you were a layman ? You can spell but you seem to have a problem with comprehension.
 
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