Do You Really Care About Little Details?

[TheCracker]

The more realistic GranTurismo becomes, the more the 'major' missing details we don't have will detract more than all the 'little' details we are given. when i say major detail i'm refering to details like: number of oponents, crash damage or collision handling. I know the first two are probably never going to change and i'm ok about that. But, especially after playing TOCA Race Driver/Pro Race Driver/V8 Supercars etc etc (- whatever codemasters call the game in your part of the world) - and seing how well their cars interact with each other during collisions is much better than GT at present. You get the feeling that GTs' cars don't contact the road through 4 small patches of rubber - more like thay have a flat stable base, i know they still break traction front and rear and even ride curbs like a four wheeled vehicle, but when it comes to collisions with other cars or solid objects, they still perform more like tanks then real cars.

I would happily for go reverse lights, realistic horn sounds, tyre marks, animated drivers etc just for this major detail to be changed.

 

[yeti]

Have you got Prologue TheCracker?

Each wheel is completely independant of each other and it's effect on the car... this makes it feel much more like a car that you're driving than a block of ice...

As for the collision detection... I beleive that this has been improved for prologue too... I whacked into a wall last night and tried to floor it away... only for my car to be stuck in the wrong gear and it took a while for it to sort itself out... Now I don't know whether or not this was an intended thing to happen but I thought that it was pretty cool and pretty realistic... (Apart from the fact that major parts of the car should have been missing!!)

C.

 

[T5-R]

Have you got Prologue TheCracker?

Each wheel is completely independant of each other and it's effect on the car... this makes it feel much more like a car that you're driving than a block of ice...

GT was supposed to have that since GT1, which is supposed to be what made it seem more realistic than all other racers at the time. Although if you go back to GT1 now, it feels arcadey as hell.

 

[TheCracker]

Yeti - I do have Prologue - and it is better in that respect than previously, the way cars take curbs is much better, you do feel you have four independant wheels, but the cars still react like they are made of concrete when they touch either walls or other cars.

 

[yeti]

The problem here is that neither the car nor the track have deformation characteristics... Therefore there will be nothing that we can do about this until car and track damage come into it...

No other game out there has track damage for that matter... when someone ploughs into a tyre wall in F1 tyres go everywhere and so do bits of the car...

Track damage would be a lot easier to model than car damage I think?! At least they don't have to ask the car makers permission for it?

Obviously if you slammed into a brick wall then you wouldn't damage it much but if you blatted a tyre wall then they could go flying? That would be a nice detail that I would like to see?!

Also we all know that the E3 version had an impact blur effect when crashing into walls... hopefully this will help make it appear as though we've crashed... at least in Bumper cam?!

I think that Car damage might finally make it into GT5... the GFX should be able to handle it and the PS3 should be able to handle the added amount of computations that this will need... Although I think it will make the game a lot harder... in F1 if someone touches another car a wing falls off... this will make the F1 races almost impossible to complete... and especially if the AI batters you as well and takes your rear wing off... It'd be worth trying to take people out just before the pits then diving into the pits to get repaired whilst they have to endure a lap of no downforce!!

C.

 

[TheCracker]

I don't see why we would need car and track damage to make the collisions more realistic than they are at the moment?

 

[yeti]

How would you do it then?

You need the force to go somewhere and at the moment the car just bounces off...

What do you want to happen?

C.

 

[Gabkicks]

I dont really care about car damage, there are other more important things to worry about.. engine and suspension damage i wouldnt mind though.
lets not forget about the tracks.. like on rally circuits after a few laps parts of the road begin to wear away, puddles become larger, rocks kicked up, and/or paths cleared or made worse for the car behind But i'm just looking foward to the weather effects they are supposed to have in gt4. Finally driving in the rain and not just on a wet road.

 

[TheCracker]

How would you do it then?

You need the force to go somewhere and at the moment the car just bounces off...

What do you want to happen?

But the cars don't bounce off, at least not as much as they should do if you use that path of thinking. As far as i'm concerned, this is the weakest aspect of GranTurismo, its been this way since GT1 and has barely improved compared to every other aspect of the game. To me its a gapping hole in GT's 'realism'

 

[yeti]

I do reckon it's better in the latter versions of the game... in GT1 SS-R11 you could just slide round the outside of the course and that would always be quicker than anything else...

In GT3 it slowed you down a hell of a lot more hitting the barriers than previously...

This is why I would like to see track damage... you blast your car into a wall at 300 KPH... you make a car shaped hole in the wall!! (and/or come out the other side!) I don't see a way that you would be able to do it without track damage to be honest?!

Even if the track damage replaced itself when you'd gone out of shot or something! (As the stewards put the tyres back)!?!

C.

 

[code_kev]

Track damage would be awesome, on rsc2 you can snap fences, kill trees etc, its really cool

Tbh I can see some of the later racing games on the next gen consoles adding stuff like this, would be very very cool if a gt games had this stuff and realistic damage

 

[911_gt3_rs]

Track damage would certainly add a whole new dimension of realism to the game. As far as little details are concerned we already have 'intreractive' tracks in one aspect, in some courses. Quite a few of them have some 'interactive' scenery, albeit only in the form of cones and distance signs as well as some of the wooden barriers in Grand Canyon. OK so this is still a far cry away from full track damage but it does show that PD are still paying attention to small details such as being able to knock over a cone and watch it fly. Perhaps the reality is that PD simply cannot give us such a feature due to limitations of the hardware, atleast without sacrificing the visual quality and complexities of the games physics engine.

As for the original topic do i CARE about the little details yes they are important because, as many have said already, it is the little details that make the game alot more realistic. Major details like Red faction stlye Geo Mod tracks and smaller ones like car/exhaust vibration can make a big difference but i would happily buy/play/ernjoy the game without them. My opiniuon is that PD have the formula right for what to include and what not include.

 

[Swift]

It's all about the details. To be honest. There are very few bad engines out there for almost any type of game. Racing, Fighting, Flying, RPG they all have established engines.

So it's about the little details. Why do you think car manufactures make so many different variations of the same car(like nissan's 350/infinity G35)?

In my opinion, unless damage effects performance, it's totally meaningless. To be honest, I don't want to see a banged up S2000 running around the track.

The details that I'm concerned with are with the physics engine. Quite frankly. If GT4 looked just like GT3 with improved physics(especially in 2 player mode), more cars and more tracks. I'd be just fine with it.

There are some other things that I think are stupid. Like you can't change the settings on a car in the second garage. Or that you can't change settings in arcade mode except on free run(I just can't stand going in between Sim and Arcade mode). But those are things I'm willing to get over for a good physics engine.

 

[phantasm]

you're never gonna get a game that gets EVERYTHING in it... or EVERY detail to perfection... it's just the way of the world, nothing is perfect. Having said that, i think that discussions about minute details or subtle changes are important. There's no doubt that co's like PD read message boards of magnitude (like GTP) about their products to get a feel for public opinion and perhaps get some new ideas or different perspectives on their work. So even as trivial an item such as reverse lights is important to talk about to help PD improve GT. Sure there are perhaps bigger fish to fry, but the only way to improve is to take in all sorts of different points of view and opinion to open the door to new or better ideas, features, details, modes, etc, etc, etc.

We (as gamers) just need to keep in mind that we're not getting a one-off game designed just for us, and like everything there will always be little or big flaws, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate and enjoy what we get.

 

[Robin]

Even if they don't have car damage they could do some kind of track damage even if it were just scuff marks on lets say the concrete or other marks and dents. If your car skimmed the side of the track you could have some spark effect (GTA VC) and leave marks on the wall. At the moment I do feel that the impacts are quite unrealistic....

1) because of the fact that no visual damage (however minor) is seen on the object you have hit...and 2) because whatever you hit you get the same sound.....hit a car, same sound, hit concrete, same sound, hit wood.....you get the idea!!

They should change the audio sound to suit whatever you hit and they should also have marks left on hit objects....all its going to need is another image file layered onto the wall.....like when you have bullet marks on walls in shoot em up's, I feel aswell they these things would not be hard to implement.....

Robin

 

[DevilGTx]

Phantasm, I just can't take you seriously until you get those last 5 gold trophies for that Super license...only kidding...

Who needs damage anyway, really?
It would be awesome to see, though.
But the idea is to drive a clean race and not smash into things.
So, you won't see anything anyway if you run a clean (perfect) race.

 

[code_kev]

Devil, that may be the AIM of a race, but the fact is though, that doesn't allways happen.

 

[DevilGTx]

I never touch a single thing with my car except ground and air in 95% of
my single player races.

Therefore, I would love to see damage in the game, especially undercar
(unseen) damage., because I will mostly be unaffected.
But it would create some problems for some people...like my friend Doug,
who knows exactly what walls to bounce off of and still keep up with me.
He even wins about 1 out of 5.
I know what you'll say about bouncing off walls, that he deserves to be broken and slowed down, but I admire his style because if he didn't do that, he would never be able to keep up. So he has developed that skill and knowledge and drives in that manner.
And yes, it does look ridiculous on the replays, but he could probably beat you once or twice,
He is definetely my best competition and I like it that way.

 

[Dave A]

If your always pushing your car toit's limits they will break from time to tme and I'm going to be honest and say I think that your exagerating with our 95% figure.

 

[35mm]

He is definetely my best competition and I like it that way.

Not anymore.
Tell your friend Doug he's going to have a hard time in GT4.

 

[Eagle]

We have a damage discussion guys, let's keep it on track

 

[TheCracker]

I know we are never going to see damage, either on the cars or on the tracks, and thats fine with me. The cars physics have supposedly got to the stage where they are now very accurately represented, after playing GT4P i can vouch for this. But we are talking about the cars driving physics when driven upto the limits of traction. When those limits are broken the physics take a downward turn for the worse, yes you get under and overstear and drift, but beyond this the cars just don't handle as they would in reality. When a slick shod car catches a wheel on the grass, especially if its a driven wheel or if the car is subject to sideways forces (ie cornering) - that car would quickly spin - in GT - nothing but a little slowing resistance.
In fact any subjected forces that would in reality upset the balance of the car seem to have no such effect in the world of GT!

- i know this is more a 'major' detail, and this is a 'minor' detail thread - but until PD gets the major details correct, they should stop wasting time on the minor.

 

[Gabkicks]

when i think of track damage, i'm not thinking about busting stuff up. I mean like on rally races where the track wears away from tires, like puddles getting larger as cars go over the same puddle over and over, or cars kicking up rocks when they cut corners. stuff like that. Nothing that would promote any type of destruction or anything... just good driving... Which is why even if they were going to put car damage in they should put in engine and suspension damage 1st before external damage.. but this has pretty much been discussed on other threads.. It'd be cool to have to worry about shifting too far past the red line...

 

[DevilGTx]

I want details!
I hope leather seats are an option when purchasing a car. ;-)

 

[Gabkicks]

lol, man. Yeah, details are a must. its what separates the good from the great. Period pick your battles wisely young padawan. hmmm... not quite sure why i said that...

 

[phantasm]

if you can't customize your car's audio system and add a GPS, DVD, and of course a PS2 then i'm not buying GT4 [/sarcasm]

 

[Gabkicks]

lol mang, maybe for the ps3 they'll include radios and people will rice out their cars w/ big ass speaker systems, hydrolics and spinnin rims... and crap

seriously though, its easy to understand why gt3 and gt4 will have some stuff out... because they are trying to stay focused. They want to give the game the best damn physics it can have and they arent gonna go half assed on damage.. when they put damage in the game its gonna included just about everything. I think they should create some type of sim where they only have the JGTC cars in it so the game would be ultra focused... but thats just a tangent i wont continue on....

 

[DevilGTx]

Why is it hard to believe my 95% figure?
That's the beauty of the AI in GT3 -- it's so dumb that you can race conservatively
without touching anything (even the other cars) and still smoke 'em.
The improved AI will be one of the most important details.

I have "mad knowledge of track" in GT3, and I look forward to gaining it for all the new tracks in GT4, and re-learning the old ones.

 

[Darin]

Why is it hard to believe my 95% figure?
That's the beauty of the AI in GT3 -- it's so dumb that you can race conservatively
without touching anything (even the other cars) and still smoke 'em.
The improved AI will be one of the most important details.

Race a Stock Clio in the Professional MR and lets see how long you even last. Then you'll see exactly how "dumb" the AI is.

I have "mad knowledge of track" in GT3, and I look forward to gaining it for all the new tracks in GT4, and re-learning the old ones.

No you don't. I know for a fact you depend on power to win in GT3. Race with stock cars all the way through GT3 and you'll see how exactly hard is.

 

[_aj]

One minor detail I haven't seen mentioned and it's probably the thing you see most in real racing as well as bit of strategy behind it is headlights on during a race. Almost every race you see drivers will have their headlights on and it's not just to make the car look menacing there's a hidden agenda in it, that being blind the guy ahead by hitting his mirrors when he looks at them, that split second of lost concentration from a bright light can mean victory !! Small minute detail but one I would love to see. Also the usual tiremark should be there, as in the video where the car does a handbrake turn on the track and spins around aimlessly, sure there's smoke but with no rubber being put down it looked well ...disappointing to be honest. And I totally agree about reverse lights, they should be in, indicators however I would maybe like to see automatically appear when entering the pits, add a nice touch.

Anyway rant over, carry on...