Ekretz Modded CSW V1 comparison to Beta V2

[Derickh]

Hello everybody,
I did a back to back test with these two bases with Asseto Corsa , iRacing and Race Room Experience. I have had the modded wheel for a few months, so I am used to some stronger FFB compared to the unmodded V1 base. I am using V37 on my Modded V1.

Asseto Corsa:
Beta Base
The F1 Rim I noticed the FFB was a little weaker right away, but the lighter rim did give a good feel in FFB. I ran 4 or 5 laps at Mugello in the Zonda (what a beast) and it felt pretty good. The feel of the FFB was good, I could feel the light bumps and tires gripping in slides. The feel of the wheel catching slides and correcting the rear slide from my lead foot was good.
The BMW Rim felt the same except for the drop in FFB strength due to the wieght and size( I usually drive with this rim and forgot about the slight change in the feel of FFB). I started to drive and was getting the same feel as far as the light bumps and the grip of tires for the 4 to 5 laps with this rim.

Modded
With the F1 Rim I noticed right away that the Forces were 15 to 20 times stronger than the Beta. I was hitting the curbs and was instantly hit with FFB that I am used to(wheel fighting me). I could really feel the wheels grip and the wheel "fight" me when going into a turn at speed.
With the BMW rim I did notice the feel of FFB was not as strong as with the F1 rim, but it was not as drastic of difference as it was with the Beta base. The FFB felt the same as with the F1 rim .I do find with the heavier and bigger rim you have a little more leverage moving the wheel against the FFB.

I-racing:
This is the Sim/Game I am on or using regularly So I am really familar with the feel of the modded base.I was running the MX-5 (the car I drive the most) and was on the Mid-Ohio track (which I know well)
Beta
With the F1 Rim right away I noticed the FFB strength was alot weaker than the Modded base, but could feel all of the forces really well. I noticed that going thru the turns I felt like I was driving on ice, almost spinning on every turn. The FFB strength just wasn't how I like it (strong and fighting me). The BMW rim was the same but with a slight drop in the feel of FFB due to the heavier and bigger rim.

Race Room Experience :
I only used the Beta base because the site was down when I tried to use the Modded base. I really only did like 2 or 3 laps and had to up the FFB in 3 or 4 of the settings. So I am not going to comment on this one.

My verdict is the modded base is the way to go if you already have a V1 base.
For the people that do not have a CSW V1 and looking to get a good wheel , I would go for the V2.

 

[LeMansAid]

I'm not in the market, but I'm still curious about how you'd compare the subtle ffb detail. I expect a direct drive wheel like the SimX to have a very wide range of forces and possibly show us over time how much we've been missing at the extremes.

It's maybe a bit like a sound recording that's had a band pass with a mid-range focus put on it. It's easy to tell what's going on with the song because that's where the most useful resonant frequencies and the vocals are. If one were to choose a limited range, that would be the range to choose. However, bring it to life with a full range frequency presentation and it's a whole new world of dynamism. Big bass boom along with the fine detail in the treble.

We're not there yet - most of us in terms of hardware access, and presumably none of us in terms of software access. But working with what you've tried, my question is - with the extra forces that the modded wheel offers, is it an expansion (everything the same plus more force/"bass"), a shift (more force/"bass", but less detail/"treble"), or a bit of both?

 

[Derickh]

I would say it is an expansion. You feel all the detail but with more force.

 

[K_Soze]

The Buhlers are monsters
This is really nice for those who have just modded their wheels, they still have the best wheel under 1000$

Ok now we are all waiting for the Ekretz's brushless next mod !

By the way I have driven a Crudden direct drive wheel... While it can break your thumb when you hit a wall (driving a formula one is a nightmare ), it wasn't a violent fight, it was smooth, sometimes a little bit heavy but never "hard" to turn...

 

[eKretz]

@LeMansAid it really is considerably better than stock. Like a LOT better. No matter what that one dude says, lol. To me at least, the stock V1 is really hard to feel the subtler forces with. The beta V2 is definitely better, and the Bühler modded V1 is the best. Is it perfect? As good as a direct drive wheel? Of course not. But it is very good.

I would love to see some other users of the modded wheel give their opinions on this also.

 

[K_Soze]

I hope it will not be that good, I can not buy anymore a CSW V1 to get your mod !

I am doomed to buy a V2 !!!

 

[lemansfanatic]

Exactly the review I was waiting for, thank you that was very helpful. I somehow knew that's what it would be like because Ekretz was measuring his wheel at 10-15% more NM of torque with the modded wheel. What's the overall cost comparison for someone to buy a used CSW V1 plus doing this mod, vs buying a V2? (Please include all the cooling mods neccessary to make it comparable in longevity to the V2.

 

[LeMansAid]

I would say it is an expansion. You feel all the detail but with more force.

But if everything is amplified, it's a shift. It may be that it's software limitations only, but I was wondering if there was still forces felt on the same, most subtle level with the modded wheel. Say 1 is the finest detail the sim can offer, and the V2 wheel put out forces from 1 to 7, did the modded wheel put out forces at 3 to 9, or 1 to 9? "3 to 9" being the same information with greater force.

To me at least, the stock V1 is really hard to feel the subtler forces with. The beta V2 is definitely better, and the Bühler modded V1 is the best. Is it perfect? As good as a direct drive wheel? Of course not. But it is very good.

It'll be good to see how developers respond to people having more powerful wheels. When subtle road texture detail is just going to be mashed in with other ffb information because there's not enough breadth, it's not really worth their while focusing too much on it. Hopefully the V2 is hefty enough to encourage a new era in ffb programming. That, and the SimX wheel selling enough to contribute impetus. Don't know where the V2 sits compared to the T500 power wise though.

 

[K_Soze]

I think the modded wheel will be more expensive, two Buhlers cost a little less than 200$, then you have to add a new power supply and the pump... No miracle I think, it is a better setting but quality components are expensive.

 

[eKretz]

The thing is, by increasing the maximum force or by decreasing the minimum force, either way you do it, you increase the dynamic range. There is no shift, because the wheel still has to reproduce the smaller forces also. All of this can also be adjusted via the tuning menu as well. The linearity graph shows the changes quite well.

To give you an idea, here is the linearity graph of my beta V2:



And here is my modded V1:



Note, these are both using the same settings, and they can both be shifted by adjusting FF and FOR. If, for instance, I was worried about making that graph look even better, I would try adjusting FOR upwards and FF downwards - this FOR adjustment would shift the beginning of the graph to the left and the remainder upward, then the FF adjustment would lower the remainder that would be too high. Belt tension also plays a role in where the wheel gets moving, so if yours doesn't start where mine does, work on getting that dialed in. The following graph shows my wheel with the belts overly tight and as you can see the linearity suffered on the low end. The low drag mods can help a little bit also.

 

[K_Soze]

"Nonlinear and proud of it...". It is not so bad

 

[eKretz]

"Nonlinear and proud of it...". It is not so bad

Yeah I know, it was more of a poke at you-know-who than anything.

 

[Blue028]

Once you have used a modded wheel it's hard to go back. I had the twin buhler setup for a while and when it gave up (due to using them hard with out any cooling when I first installed them) I had to use my t500 which I keep as a backup but even that wheel feels numb in comparison.right now I'm running my single buhler motor setup and I'm pretty happy with it, it's very strong (probably equal to the twin setup) and very fast which is better for drifting. I have even started doing a bit of actual racing now with Asset to corsa, Race room, and recently got myself iRacing. I think if I was using a stock wheel I wouldn't be as interested in racing because it's just not as fun or exiting for me, I like the wheel to be strong and it really enhances my enjoyment. I am actually ok at turning laps too, in race room in the Bathurst competition I am the fastest Australian to post a time, I'm just outside the top 20, and in iRacing I have won a couple of rookie races in the mx5 cup, I can run low 1:23.xxx around Charlotte. I'm not saying I couldn't run those times on a stock wheel, but for me it's the whole experience I get with the modded wheel.

 

[eKretz]

It'll be good to see how developers respond to people having more powerful wheels. When subtle road texture detail is just going to be mashed in with other ffb information because there's not enough breadth, it's not really worth their while focusing too much on it. Hopefully the V2 is hefty enough to encourage a new era in ffb programming. That, and the SimX wheel selling enough to contribute impetus. Don't know where the V2 sits compared to the T500 power wise though.

I agree. When I first installed the mod it was very clear that most Sims did not expect a wheel with such a power level. I had trouble racing in some sims with the default settings since the developers seem to tend to boost certain forces to compensate for the weaker wheels that were available when their Sims came out.

Today FFB in most of the better Sims is so adjustable that it's pretty easy to fine tune for the stronger wheels, so most of them have already adapted at least somewhat, at least in PC racing anyway.

As far as I have seen from people who have actually measured max stall torque on the T500, it has between 4 N•m and 6 N•m. (Variance is either due to worn out motor or poor measurement - don't ask me which). The V2 has "over 7 N•m" per Fanatec, and I've measured my beta unit at about 7.3 N•m, so it is either a bit or quite a lot stronger than the T500.

 

[eKretz]

Once you have used a modded wheel it's hard to go back. I had the twin buhler setup for a while and when it gave up (due to using them hard with out any cooling when I first installed them) I had to use my t500 which I keep as a backup but even that wheel feels numb in comparison.right now I'm running my single buhler motor setup and I'm pretty happy with it, it's very strong (probably equal to the twin setup) and very fast which is better for drifting. I have even started doing a bit of actual racing now with Asset to corsa, Race room, and recently got myself iRacing. I think if I was using a stock wheel I wouldn't be as interested in racing because it's just not as fun or exiting for me, I like the wheel to be strong and it really enhances my enjoyment. I am actually ok at turning laps too, in race room in the Bathurst competition I am the fastest Australian to post a time, I'm just outside the top 20, and in iRacing I have won a couple of rookie races in the mx5 cup, I can run low 1:23.xxx around Charlotte. I'm not saying I couldn't run those times on a stock wheel, but for me it's the whole experience I get with the modded wheel.

I agree wholeheartedly - and kudos on your time in Race Room bud! BTW did you ever get that single motor setup to fit with the cover on? Or do you need to leave it off to use it? The speed of that single should be the same as the dual setup since I believe the motors are identical in RPM.

I discovered that the mod setup is very much more enjoyable than stock immediately also. It's just one of those things where when you fire up the wheel for the first time, you get that stupid grin on your face and you can't stop smiling as you're driving, lol. You guys should have heard Derickh the first time he ever got to drive mine. There were a lot of huge smiles and I thought there was a record player with a broken record in my living room because I kept hearing "Oh my God" over and over again, lol.

 

[Blue028]

Still running it half skeleton atm, only the left side panel and the clear plastic on top, I can just fit the right pannel on of I trim down my motor mount but the fan and switches will have to be stripped out. I'm hoping with the slightly larger motor pulley it will give me a bit mor room on the right hand side, but the motor is so big (if it moves to far left it will rub on the encoder disc) it just makes it difficult to try fit everything inside the standard case, there's no way I will be able to get the back panel on either. IIRC The single motor is rated at 5000rpm, with the twin setup I had to crank the volts up a bit to get my desired wheel speed for drifting

 

[eKretz]

Hmm, thought it was the same. Maybe I looked at the wrong part number. There seem to be a million data sheets with slightly different numbers, and then there are the 'customs' they made for specific manufacturers. Those gold colored ones I had they couldn't even give me the specs on - couldn't find them I guess.

 

[emu]

there is no difference anyway, people will mod the v2 when it comes out, plus with more features.

 

[eKretz]

there is no difference anyway, people will mod the v2 when it comes out, plus with more features.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. I can assure you there's a difference between this mod and both the V1 and V2 beta wheel in terms of feel, and for the better at least to me. More features? Like for instance?

And sure, people will almost certainly mod the V2, but there aren't many modding the V1 (which needed it a lot more), so I doubt we'll see some kind of massive influx. A brushless motor that will fit all the requirements may be tough to find...and when/if found may be quite expensive as well.

 

[superslowme]

Good stuff Derickh, appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

I don´t really have the wallet for V2 upgrade anyways so glad to read I can keep my Buhler modded V1 haha, like I would ever get rid of it.

Then again you never know what happens in the future, maybe Eric can keep the V2 (and go all nuts modding that bad boy) and make it even more awesome, direct drive wheels coming out etc.. etc.. but for now V1 Buhler mod will stay with me and I feel good I don´t need to open that empty wallet of mine.

 

[K_Soze]

When I see the linearity graph, I wish I could write a firmware that would be able to learn how to drive different wheels by doing a few rotations and analyzing the way the motor-wheel are acting. Because what is the most important thing in FFB is linearity (I realize this this night, damn full moon, yes I am as slow to understand than while driving ).

It is pure signal processing.

 

[eKretz]

I wouldn't obsess too much over it really. How the wheel feels and whether it communicates enough information to help you "hear" what it's trying to tell you is the important thing. That and whether it feels good enough to add to your immersion and enjoyment. A graph is just a graph - and while it is a tool that gives us some information, each of us has different preferences etc, - so there is no one ideal response.

 

[LogiForce]

Erik, do you have a linearity graph with DRI on 5 and FOR at 100 and 150?
I am curious to see how linear it is without the artificial damping.
No I am not doing a 'drag' talk on you. Just curious to see the results in a graph when stuff that should not be in there naturally is removed.

Last night I ran tests and noticed that with Step Log 2 the wheel immediately started to move when using DRI-5, while with DRI-off it took a while. Mostly noticible on the BMW rim.
The only thing is that on return to center it would overshoot. But... that is not an issue when your arms are actually attached to the wheel in a 'real world' (instead of 'benchmark') situation.

 

[eKretz]

Logi, you were a beta tester, right? PM me if you want to discuss further, as I am limited by NDA on what I can say.

Regarding DRI, I didn't do any linearity tests with it active as I don't feel that is an accurate way to test as there are still some quirky things going on with it active. For instance it barely makes a difference on the steplog with my beta unit - you would think it would make quite a difference there. My stock CSW V1 performed better on steplog than the V2 @ DRI 5. I would love to see some of your graphs to compare with mine. What I really wish is that we could actually deactivate the damper for real and not just try to compensate with artificial assistance (DRI). I personally can't stand the feel of either wheel when using DRI. Feels like way too strong power steering to me. I may do some more tests with setting tweaks but I don't really think it's necessary. When I drive both the V2 and the modded V1 in AC and iRacing they both have the same types of forces in the same places on track, (just the modded wheel feels a bit more lively since it's stronger) so I'm pretty sure the linearity graph for the V2 above is accurate - as both graphs look fairly close to the same and both wheels have similar amount of activity on-track in the same places.

 

[LogiForce]

Logi, you were a beta tester, right? PM me if you want to discuss further, as I am limited by NDA on what I can say.

Regarding DRI, I didn't do any linearity tests with it active as I don't feel that is an accurate way to test as there are still some quirky things going on with it active. For instance it barely makes a difference on the steplog with my beta unit - you would think it would make quite a difference there. My stock CSW V1 performed better on steplog than the V2 @ DRI 5. I would love to see some of your graphs to compare with mine. What I really wish is that we could actually deactivate the damper for real and not just try to compensate with artificial assistance (DRI). I personally can't stand the feel of either wheel when using DRI. Feels like way too strong power steering to me. I may do some more tests with setting tweaks but I don't really think it's necessary. When I drive both the V2 and the modded V1 in AC and iRacing they both have the same types of forces in the same places on track, (just the modded wheel feels a bit more lively since it's stronger) so I'm pretty sure the linearity graph for the V2 above is accurate - as both graphs look fairly close to the same and both wheels have similar amount of activity on-track in the same places.

Just FYI DRI isn't artificial assistance anymore on the CSWv2 as it was on older wheels. I thought this could be clearly felt as well.
On the CSWv2 it is used as artificial dampening. When DRI is off the artificial dampening is full engaged to a level where the wheel has about the same resistance/drag as previous wheels. This so that older games will still feel fine and not strangely light in places.
When you set DRI to 5 this artificial dampening switches off and you are only left with the mechanical resistance of the wheel.

I wonder why you have a different impression of it though?
Maybe it is the type of games you play and how they produce FFB.
I ran R3E last night with DRI-5 and FOR-150, and it was a blast to play and I worked up a nice sweat after the hill climb and a few laps on track. The FFB didn't feel light at all, but it only got a wider dynamic range... plus the lighter more subtle forces were coming through better/more easily.
Same thing in pCARS as well. The Formula B is set up for CSWv2 testing at the moment with a linear FFB setup, and it feels great. This was done with DRI-off as pCARS has something that can counter any resistance in a wheel. I guess it is something like how active noise-cancelling works.
This was done as DRI can't be game controlled.

ps. My graphs are being made by someone else at the moment. So you'd still have to wait a bit. I ran about 30 test sequences yesterday, so it will take a while to digest it all.

 

[eKretz]

Actually I don't think you have that right about the DRI not being artificial assistance still, the dampening does not switch off with DRI and it is still artificial assistance per Armin - as I had an email conversation with him regarding the specifics. He said that using DRI only compensate for it. And it feels exactly the same to me at the highest setting as the V1 at lower settings so I believe it. I asked about being able to turn the dampening off and there's no way to deactivate it currently. It doesn't feel as awful as the first one did by far, but it still feels wrong to me. Also, at DRI 5 it definitely spins farther freewheeling powered on than when the wheel is powered off. The dampening is only active when the wheel is powered. Definitely artificially adding some help to rotate the wheel.

Mostly we are discussing something pretty subjective as far as feel goes, so it isn't really a big deal function-wise, more a preference for different feels. I much prefer the higher overall force and increased small forces that the modded V1 provides. And for instance I never break a sweat running the V2 and rarely do when running the modded V1 at 24V either.

 

[LogiForce]

Actually I don't think you have that right about the DRI not being artificial assistance still, the dampening does not switch off with DRI and it is still artificial assistance per Armin - as I had an email conversation with him regarding the specifics. He said that using DRI only compensate for it. And it feels exactly the same to me at the highest setting as the V1 at lower settings so I believe it. I asked about being able to turn the dampening off and there's no way to deactivate it currently. It doesn't feel as awful as the first one did by far, but it still feels wrong to me. Also, at DRI 5 it definitely spins farther freewheeling powered on than when the wheel is powered off. The dampening is only active when the wheel is powered. Definitely artificially adding some help to rotate the wheel.

Mostly we are discussing something pretty subjective as far as feel goes, so it isn't really a big deal function-wise, more a preference for different feels. I much prefer the higher overall force and increased small forces that the modded V1 provides. And for instance I never break a sweat running the V2 and rarely do when running the modded V1 at 24V either.

I think we'll need to take this to the private beta forum whenever it opens, but I just want to say that.

DRI-5 is indeed a little faster, but it's so little that I didn't notice it at first. However, I am not sure this is because of any actively added 'aid' or 'assistance'.
There is still some compensation the servo controller does for the cogging resistance as the rotor turns. This alone could be the reason why the wheel does get assisted a bit as it turns.

But yeah, definitely something to talk about with the beta testers and Fanatec devs whenever the beta forum opens for a chatter. I think we'll be able to go back in depth more there and maybe come to a more proper consensus on the hows and whys to everyone here in the public domain.

Will see you there, Erik. I will leave it as is for now.

 

[eKretz]

Sounds good, but as I said, that is direct from Armin about the compensation. Another thing direct from Armin that I forgot to mention earlier is that the dampening supposedly has NO effect at any time there is power to the motor. In other words, it shouldn't be affecting the Wheelcheck tests at all, whether steplog 1 or 2 (linearity). This makes me very curious to see your graphs, as if they are different perhaps there is a problem with my wheel and it should have been even better.

There is no question that the V2 is a huge improvement over the stock V1 though. I can't think of any category in which it isn't. I think certainly it's the best factory wheel out there right now that isn't direct drive.

 

[mrbasher]

Good info guys. Though I just wanted to mention something that's been nagging me since the release of the wheel:

Referring to the motor as a "servo" motor strikes me as a bit of clever marketing. While it is indeed a motor in servo configuration, so are those motors used in even Fanatec's Porsche 911 Turbo S wheel, the T500, TX, and basically any wheel out there with an encoder mounted directly to the motor shaft.

I guess I just wanted to clear up the whole "servo" thing as for whatever reason it's bugs me each time I read it. Brushless != servo motor, motor with encoder in closed loop == servo motor. I can so no reason to call the V2 motor a servo other than to cause confusion between it and the direct drive wheels on the market which are commonly known to use a very large, purpose built servo motor.

At any rate, the wheel looks pretty cool and I'm glad they went in the direction they did with it. Just bugged by the whole "servo" thing.

 

[eKretz]

It's certainly just marketing, but can't be called inaccurate really. But agreed, outside common parlance. Basically, any motor that can be commanded to a position can technically be called a servo - it's just that most manufacturers don't do that.