Evo magazine on GT4

[Scaff]

Taken from this months Evo magazine's 'Ask the Experts' section, its a reader letter regarding GT4's realism.

At the age of 22, I still don't own a battered 106 or Saxo of my own, nor do I spend countless evenings pounding around in my parents' Focus, but I am hoping to one day buy an MX-5, 350Z or some other track-day friendly car. In the meantime, what do you reckon is the best way to prepare for my first on-track experience? I have spent countless days with GT4, but how much can this game really teach you? Which specific aspects of driving a real car on a track are well modelled in GT4, and which are not? Also are there any other ways to prepare for the real deal?

We love GT4, but the realism only takes you so far. While the circuits are accurately rendered, there's only so much realism you can get with a fixed seat - there are no g forces to suggest cornering, acceleration or braking. Also there's no real feedback or modulation of weight through the steering wheel, no feel through the brakes or throttle. In short, much of what you use to accurately guide a car and keep it on the limit is absent. Oh, and all the cars seem to have steering lock that's a handy one turn between locks and they bounce off stuff when you crash them.

That said, four of us were totally absorbed for the best part of a week with beating each other's Nurburgring lap time in a modified original Beetle, trying not to provoke the rear swing-axle and maintaining momentum. It's a shock then to arrive at the 'ring and find it's so much narrower, lumpier and hillier than you thought, and you're suddenly using a lot more of you're senses to lap the car.

A good way to get an inexpensive taste of what driving on a track really feels like is to go karting. - JB

JB is John Barker described by Evo as 'our motoring editor started as a road tester with Motor in the late '80s and has driven every significant performance car since'.


Well that one should once again set the cat among the pigeons as far as the GT4 realism debate goes, personally I think its a fair set of comments and it's certainly hard to argue with the person in questions credentials (unless anyone here has driven an Enzo, Carrera GT and Veyron).

Regards

Scaff

 

[amp88]

If they like GT4 they should try LFS. I haven't bought evo in a while now, but AFAIK they've never done a feature on it. I can't go back to GT4 after playing LFS, I just don't think there's any comparison.

I agree with Barker's response though, as has been said many times here, you can only go so far with a video game or computer sim.

 

[Scaff]

but AFAIK they've never done a feature on it.

They did a quite big piece on GT4 shortly after it was launched, I did have some scans of it, I will have to see if I can dig them out at all.

In regard to LFS I honestly think that they may have an issue with the lack of 'real' cars and tracks in it, which (great as LFS is) has always been an issue for me.

Regards

Scaff

 

[amp88]

They did a quite big piece on GT4 shortly after it was launched, I did have some scans of it, I will have to see if I can dig them out at all.

In regard to LFS I honestly think that they may have an issue with the lack of 'real' cars and tracks in it, which (great as LFS is) has always been an issue for me.

Regards

Scaff

Is that the piece where Meaden tried to beat the real life lap record in a Sauber C9? I've got that issue around somewhere and it was a great read.

I can see your point about the absence of real life tracks and cars in LFS but I suppose that's personal taste. I'd rather have a sim with good handling physics and great online racing than one with 700 real life cars that's just not in the same ballpark when it comes to driving.

 

[Scaff]

Is that the piece where Meaden tried to beat the real life lap record in a Sauber C9? I've got that issue around somewhere and it was a great read.

That's the one.

I can see your point about the absence of real life tracks and cars in LFS but I suppose that's personal taste. I'd rather have a sim with good handling physics and great online racing than one with 700 real life cars that's just not in the same ballpark when it comes to driving.

I'd rather have both, which is why one of my favorates is Richard Burns Rally.

I would love to see LFS reach a wider audience and expand into real cars and tracks, as it does have a good physics engine, if a bit too touchy with some of the rear wheel drive cars. Oh and the default suspesion set-ups on most of the cars are plain nasty.

👍

Scaff

 

[Jordan]

Last month I had the opportunity to push an F2000 open wheeled race car to the limit on a challenging little track as part of a racing school program. The only thing that I believe my GT racing experience provided me was the ability to find a perfect line after just a few times around the track. That's about it, though. Driving a real race car on a real race track is absolutely nothing like driving any type of simulator, and it never will be. The sights, sounds, g-forces, and the whole death/serious injury factor changes things like you can't imagine. Let's just say I was more than a little surprised and just how much more difficult it was to heel-toe downshift when I really was flying toward a 90 degree turn at 110mph.

 

[Scaff]

Last month I had the opportunity to push an F2000 open wheeled race car to the limit on a challenging little track as part of a racing school program. The only thing that I believe my GT racing experience provided me was the ability to find a perfect line after just a few times around the track. That's about it, though. Driving a real race car on a real race track is absolutely nothing like driving any type of simulator, and it never will be. The sights, sounds, g-forces, and the whole death/serious injury factor changes things like you can't imagine. Let's just say I was more than a little surprised and just how much more difficult it was to heel-toe downshift when I really was flying toward a 90 degree turn at 110mph.

Well said and I quite agree, I have been lucky enough with my working life to have spent a good deal or time at a range of tracks and proving grounds (mainly in road cars) and have always maintained that its exactly these areas that are missing from 'sims'.

Its also why I believe that no matter how good a sim gets it will never match the real thing, additionally I believe its why some drivers struggle to 'get' hardcore sims on any platform, as the lack of 'real' feedback just throws them out totally.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

Call me names if you must, but that looks like a very generic response to me, written by someone who isn't really "into" driving sims and just happens to have a bit of experience with GT4.

The thing about GT4 is that it feels just fine until you start pushing the limits of traction...that is, unless you're disorientated by the stiff, artificial motion of the cars at any speed, like me.

To someone who drove racecars first and played GT4 second, the flaws that appear after traction is lost would very easily seem to be due to a lack of real-world forces and feedback, as John Barker wrote.

 

[Scaff]

Call me names if you must, but that looks like a very generic response to me, written by someone who isn't really "into" driving sims and just happens to have a bit of experience with GT4.

The thing about GT4 is that it feels just fine until you start pushing the limits of traction...that is, unless you're disorientated by the stiff, artificial motion of the cars at any speed, like me.

To someone who drove racecars first and played GT4 second, the flaws that appear after traction is lost would very easily seem to be due to a lack of real-world forces and feedback, as John Barker wrote.

I could not agree that it reads like a generic reply at all, the principal point he has raised is one that you know I have raised before and Jordan has just raised above (additionally I have never read what I would consider to be a generic reply to anything in Evo).

Its an issue that all 'sims' have and one that will almost certainly never be overcome; no sim I have ever driven has come close to the real thing.

To imply that the reply is generic and/or inacurate because the writer 'may' have limited experience of GT4 (or any other sim) is simplistic, and would seem to be implying that they are not able to make a valid or acurate observation on how it may relate to the real world.

Personally I find the thoughts of someone who has experience of driving the majority of the world performance cars (of all levels) to be of great interest when it comes to GT4, and would rate those opinions highly.

I also fail to seem what being 'into' racing sims has to do with ones ability to comment on the accuracy of them, particularly when the writer is able to identify and describe the inherant limits that face them so well and has such a wealth of experience with real world cars to use as a comparison point.

It should also be kept in mind that at no point in the piece does the writer recommend using GT4 as a training tool in the manner the questioner asked of, and I have my doubts that he would recommend any sim, and not through lack of experience, rather because of the inherant weaknesses of all driving/racing sims.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

I could not agree that it reads like a generic reply at all, the principal point he has raised is one that you know I have raised before and Jordan has just raised above (additionally I have never read what I would consider to be a generic reply to anything in Evo).

Its an issue that all 'sims' have and one that will almost certainly never be overcome; no sim I have ever driven has come close to the real thing.

To imply that the reply is generic and/or inacurate because the writer 'may' have limited experience of GT4 (or any other sim) is simplistic, and would seem to be implying that they are not able to make a valid or acurate observation on how it may relate to the real world.

Personally I find the thoughts of someone who has experience of driving the majority of the world performance cars (of all levels) to be of great interest when it comes to GT4, and would rate those opinions highly.

I also fail to seem what being 'into' racing sims has to do with ones ability to comment on the accuracy of them, particularly when the writer is able to identify and describe the inherant limits that face them so well and has such a wealth of experience with real world cars to use as a comparison point.

It should also be kept in mind that at no point in the piece does the writer recommend using GT4 as a training tool in the manner the questioner asked of, and I have my doubts that he would recommend any sim, and not through lack of experience, rather because of the inherant weaknesses of all driving/racing sims.

Regards

Scaff

Reader: "Is GT4 useful for learning performance driving?"
JB: "A few of us here have played GT4. It's fun. It doesn't give you any G-forces or real feedback. Drive go-karts instead."

To me, that's quite obviously a simple, rather generic professional-racing-driver-when-asked-about-racing-sims response. Sure, he used the word "realism," but then instantly referred to the accuracy of the track renderings. Just what was he referring to when he said "realism?" You can see how this confuses things a bit.

Now, let's pretend that a world-famous, renowned food taste-tester has never, ever had a cheeseburger before. He's had steak, but never a burger. Now, what would happen if you gave him a McDonald's burger? "Mmm. That's pretty good," he might say. Does that make him an expert burger taster? Does his experience in judging steak and other fine meals really help him determine whether a McDonald's burger is any good, when it's the only burger he's ever had?

If the only driving simulator experience he has is a few handfuls of laps on GT4, then he's just as qualified to compare GT4 to real life as someone who has done many, many laps on GT4, but only done a track day once or twice, and/or dabbled in a bit of illegal, high-speed driving on public streets...

Experience is useless for making comparisons unless you're well-familiar with both sides. To put it another way, I respect your opinion of how GT4 compares to real-life more than John Barker's.

 

[Moloch_horridus]

For someone who has had experience with real life racing it may be that GT4 does not come close to the real thing - however, for someone like me whose entire experience with driving cars has been on public roads at near legal speeds then GT4 feels like an intermediate step between everyday driving and race driving.

I recently had a one day rally driving experience - we had a WRX and a Toyota Sprinter which we drove around a small oval track in the morning and a larger bush track in the afternoon. I have no doubt that my time playing GT4 gave me much more confidence in the cars' ability to stop and turn and how it behaves when understeering and oversteering. My experience was definitely enhanced by my experience with GT4, however, that being said I went straight from my rl rally driving experience to GT4's rallies and they were nothing alike - I actually found the rl cars easier to drive than in GT4.

So imo GT4 is great for getting some of the feel of rl racing but will never be a substitute for the real thing - it has its good points and it has areas that need a lot of work. But in the end it is still the best game I have ever played.

 

[Wolfe]

For someone who has had experience with real life racing it may be that GT4 does not come close to the real thing - however, for someone like me whose entire experience with driving cars has been on public roads at near legal speeds then GT4 feels like an intermediate step between everyday driving and race driving.

I recently had a one day rally driving experience - we had a WRX and a Toyota Sprinter which we drove around a small oval track in the morning and a larger bush track in the afternoon. I have no doubt that my time playing GT4 gave me much more confidence in the cars' ability to stop and turn and how it behaves when understeering and oversteering. My experience was definitely enhanced by my experience with GT4, however, that being said I went straight from my rl rally driving experience to GT4's rallies and they were nothing alike - I actually found the rl cars easier to drive than in GT4.

So imo GT4 is great for getting some of the feel of rl racing but will never be a substitute for the real thing - it has its good points and it has areas that need a lot of work.

This I can agree with. 👍 GT4 is far from realistic, but it can teach some of the rudimentary basics.

But in the end it is still the best game I have ever played.

May I recommend a couple of alternatives?

Enthusia Professional Racing....GTP Forum for it

Live for Speed....GTP Forum for it

 

[Scaff]

Reader: "Is GT4 useful for learning performance driving?"
JB: "A few of us here have played GT4. It's fun. It doesn't give you any G-forces or real feedback. Drive go-karts instead."

To me, that's quite obviously a simple, rather generic professional-racing-driver-when-asked-about-racing-sims response. Sure, he used the word "realism," but then instantly referred to the accuracy of the track renderings. Just what was he referring to when he said "realism?" You can see how this confuses things a bit.

Everything (and I do mean everything) can be open to interpretation in that manner.

You could break down the first three Star Wars films into "Boy gets toild he must defeat galactic evil, boy discovers galactic evil is his dad, boy kills dad and the galaxy lives happely ever after".

Its a fun game, but even this short reply (which I posted for interest and little more else) contains more that your summary tries to reduce it too.

Now, let's pretend that a world-famous, renowned food taste-tester has never, ever had a cheeseburger before. He's had steak, but never a burger. Now, what would happen if you gave him a McDonald's burger? "Mmm. That's pretty good," he might say. Does that make him an expert burger taster? Does his experience in judging steak and other fine meals really help him determine whether a McDonald's burger is any good, when it's the only burger he's ever had?

Now that very much depends on what question you want answered?

If its how does a McD buger rate against other burgers then out with the burger taster.

If however you want to know if a McD buger is fine food in the whole scheme of things then you need the expert food taster.

Quite frankly which one you need depends on the question you wnat asked, and to dismiss the opinion of either out of hand demonstrates either bias or a wish to obtain a 'fixed' answer.

If the only driving simulator experience he has is a few handfuls of laps on GT4, then he's just as qualified to compare GT4 to real life as someone who has done many, many laps on GT4, but only done a track day once or twice, and/or dabbled in a bit of illegal, high-speed driving on public streets...

Experience is useless for making comparisons unless you're well-familiar with both sides. To put it another way, I respect your opinion of how GT4 compares to real-life more than John Barker's.

I'm very flattered by your words.

However you dismiss the Evo teams experience with GT4 with limited information (I have the advantage of reading it from issue 1).

Even the short piece above clearly says "We love GT4" and "four of us were totally absorbed for the best part of a week with beating each other's Nurburgring lap time" which quite clearly indicats more than a few laps spent with it.

In addition Evo ran a Nurburgring lap time competition over a period of about six months, during which most of the team actively participated (and drew enteries that included touring car and GT racer Phil Bennett). Evo was also one of the first UK motoring mags to include any form of detailed article on GT4, one that again demonstrated a serious amount of time spend with the game.

I value the opinion offered by the JB and the Evo team as part of a whole discussion on the subject.

Which has given me an idea........which I will get back on if it works out.

Regards

Scaff

BTW

May I recommend a couple of alternatives?

You missed one for someone interested in the rally side of things, and thats Richard Burns Rally.

 

[Dave A]

I agree with scaff on this, GT4 is fun, and it is realistic to a degree,. But there is a gap that no game can breach, advising someone to try go-karts if they want to start to learn motorsports is much better advice than handing them a copy of GT4 and a DFP.

 

[CJ350]

I agree with scaff on this, GT4 is fun, and it is realistic to a degree,. But there is a gap that no game can breach, advising someone to try go-karts if they want to start to learn motorsports is much better advice than handing them a copy of GT4 and a DFP.

Having raced quarter-mile, dirt track oval, and off-road I agree strongly that sitting your rear in a go kart for an hour, a real kart, not those 5 hp lawn mower powered toys, will teach you more than any amount of time behind a DFP or a control pad. Even with regards to "the perfect line" around a track. Many racers past and present got their start in karts in their youth.

There is no substitute for the g-force in the seat, the pull of the harness on your shoulders, the protesting sounds of the rubber under you in the corners, and the wheel in your hands. And "when" you can handle that, toss a dozen of your peers on the track all around you, and it goes to a whole 'nother level.

The truth about racing is simply this. It doesn't matter what you race, as long as your all racing something thats competitive performance-wise. From tricycles to F-1's, its the drive to win, not the type of ride. Although the girls seem to prefer the expensive, flashy, dangerous machine drivers.

 

[JasBird]

I have to agree that a sim can never replace real life experience. However if we look at it in a different way, that a Sim is a tool and not a replacement for real life, I think it has it advantages. If we turn it around, we could ask does real life racing make you better at racing games? I'm sure in both cases none would be right on the ball from the start??

Because the difference of feel, amount of feedback and technique is so different I think that's the main reason why you can't compare. I'm sure a gamer once he has started to master say Heel & Toe, getting used to traveling at high speed, G-forces, fear factor, etc that's when you start to see the pay off for all the hours of playing sims. I think that's what a sim gives you, an understaning of driving dynamics. In the same way a race driver would struggle playing a game because he needs to build up the feel for the controller and the game. Same for us we need to build up the feel going from one race sim to another. An F1 driver would need time to get the feel and technique for a rally car or vice versa. Still they all have something in common.

Last but not least, the lack of feedback in a sim should actually go in the gamers favour, because you have to manage with less

Cheers

 

[CJ350]

Last but not least, the lack of feedback in a sim should actually go in the gamers favour, because you have to manage with less

I'd prefer to say that the real life driver has to deal with more.

But , never the less, a great post.

 

[KSaiyu]

Personally I agree with Wolfe and think the traction model, and in particular when you break traction in GT4 is just wrong. It doesn't feel real "at the limit", but honestly the only game I can think of that does simulate this (on consoles at least) is Richard Burns Rally, as mentioned by Scaff.

Here's a video taken from VV's post in another thread showing what I mean

http://access.scej-online.jp/counter.cgi/gt4/GT_online-Battle.wmv

 

[Dave_George]

A short while ago I put together an article on gt4 vs real lfe in respect to how close gt4 laptimes were compared to those in real life.

I found that under test conditions with weights corrected to be accurate as much as possible gt4 got quite close indeed to the real life lap times.

Whilst this doesnt prove much it did show me just how technically accurate gt4 actually can be, I completely agree that there is a wealth of information and forces at work in a real car that ANY sim will never recreate-full stop, but these sims are just going to keep getting better....so it will be interesting to see what the next instalment of GT is like and where it takes us too...

I agree totally with the findings of the Evo team and trust their expertise in anything they print pretty much, John Barkers response to the question asked was spot on - gt4 is not really a way of preparing for on track experience compared to the alternatives offered. Having said that I think my first visit to the Nurburgring will be a lot less "Unknown" having done so many simulated laps there...I wouldnt expect it to look or feel the same as gt4 though, and anyone who did would be kidding themselves in my opinion.

What we must remember is how gt4 (and the GT series in general) has brought to the average person is the ability to get a fairly accurate idea of how 700+ cars drive compared to others, a rough idea of how they sound and also a pretty good job has been made of re-creating the real circuits (which i always prefer to drive in gt4) featured.

regards

David

 

[panjandrum]

No DFP?

It always surprises me that so many of the reviews I've seen are apparently performed without the DFP wheel. Personally, I can't see much point of even having a racing sim without "real feedback". I'm fairly sure Jeremy Clarkson used a joystick when playing and writing about GT4.

While most of the senses are indeed not present, at least with the DFP you do get the steering feedback. I wish more magazine reviews made it clear how they tested, and whether or not they used the DFP.

On a side note, I think most of us compensate for the lack of other senses by driving much faster in GT4 than we possibly could (with any degree of safety) in real life. Still not nearly as exciting as the real thing, but it does help.

 

[Dave A]

The fact that possibly 80% of GT4 players don't use a DFP probably influences that.

 

[a112]

If they like GT4 they should try LFS. I haven't bought evo in a while now, but AFAIK they've never done a feature on it. I can't go back to GT4 after playing LFS, I just don't think there's any comparison.

I agree with Barker's response though, as has been said many times here, you can only go so far with a video game or computer sim.

I unfortunately have the same problem,i'm atracted to GT4 carlist but physics is pulling me to the dark side...

 

[CJ350]

I considered buying a DFP, but I seriously think it would make the game too easy.

 

[Scaff]

No DFP?

In the original test of GT4 that Evo carried out they were quite clearly shown using a DFP in a full driving rig, so it would certainly seem that they are using a DFP.

Regards

Scaff