Expanding Gr. 2: Add in IMSA DPi (and similar prototype) cars?

[Razgriz2118]

Currently in GT Sport, Gr. 2 is a Super GT GT500 class. While the first obvious expansion of Gr. 2 would be to add in DTM cars, what about also including IMSA DPi cars like the Acura ARX-05, Cadillac DPi-V.R, and Mazda RT24-P? While those are prototype cars compared to Super GT/DTM Touring cars, the modern Super GT cars make more power while the DPi cars are lighter by several hundred pounds, so I like they could be BoP-ed the effectively. It would come down to if the aerodynamics and vehicle dynamics of the cars are drastically different or not, which I don't know about.

 

[05XR8]

Keep Super GT separate. As is, it's like the real Super GT with GT3/GR.3 classes in GT League. Adding any other type of car to Group 2, out of Super GT regulations, turns it into another Gr.1/GR.4 class.

I'd go for Gr.2 staying and Super GT move to, well, Super GT. Give it a new name: Gr.S.

 

[Epic B]

Or just give Daytona Prototypes their own class. Unless bopping them into Group 1 is viable. What's the spec sheet for a DPi?

 

[MIE1992]

I think they belong in Gr.1, as Gr.1 was defined from that official promotional video as being for sports prototypes. Adding DPi, LMP900, LMGTP, the upcoming LM Hypercar and LMDh classes, and other classes - including LMP2 - could be a great way to expand Gr.1 to include more automakers.

For DPi, this could allow Chevrolet and Cadillac to have a car in Gr.1, and the same could be said for MG and Lotus regarding LMP2 cars. While I'd welcome the Nissan Onroak DPi and the Mazda DPi, I'm also quite content with their current Gr.1 offerings - if I was in charge of the car list, I wouldn't prioritize adding those two particular DPi racers.

That said, I would add two new classes: Gr.1V and Gr.3V, which would respectively be for vintage sports prototypes, such as the Ferrari 330 P4 or Ford Mark IV, and vintage grand tourers, like the Shelby Daytona Coupe or Alfa Romeo TZ2.

 

[Razgriz2118]

Keep Super GT separate. As is, it's like the real Super GT with GT3/GR.3 classes in GT League. Adding any other type of car to Group 2, out of Super GT regulations, turns it into another Gr.1/GR.4 class.

I'd go for Gr.2 staying and Super GT move to, well, Super GT. Give it a new name: Gr.S.

Or just give Daytona Prototypes their own class. Unless bopping them into Group 1 is viable. What's the spec sheet for a DPi?

That was an idea floating around in my head as well, which is to shuffle around classes, just for "future-proofing" of the concept in the off-chance that more prototypes get added to the game. So there could be a Gr. P2 for LMP2/DPi cars, for example.

From just quick research (because all of this thinking time is really procrastination time), a DPi weighs around 2000 lbs with the driver and makes around 600 HP, while a GT500 car weights around 2250 lbs and makes around 650 HP.

I think they belong in Gr.1, as Gr.1 was defined from that official promotional video as being for sports prototypes. Adding DPi, LMP900, LMGTP, the upcoming LM Hypercar and LMDh classes, and other classes - including LMP2 - could be a great way to expand Gr.1 to include more automakers.

For DPi, this could allow Chevrolet and Cadillac to have a car in Gr.1, and the same could be said for MG and Lotus regarding LMP2 cars. While I'd welcome the Nissan Onroak DPi and the Mazda DPi, I'm also quite content with their current Gr.1 offerings - if I was in charge of the car list, I wouldn't prioritize adding those two particular DPi racers.

That said, I would add two new classes: Gr.1V and Gr.3V, which would respectively be for vintage sports prototypes, such as the Ferrari 330 P4 or Ford Mark IV, and vintage grand tourers, like the Shelby Daytona Coupe or Alfa Romeo TZ2.

Gr. 1 has prototypes, but adding every type of prototype car into it I feel will cause balancing issues, since DPi/LMP2 are a "class below" LMP1 cars. They could be BoP-ed, but I have a feeling it'll be difficult getting the balance right. Plus, if you throw those cars in, now you have a Gr. 1 that has LMP1, LMP2, DPi, and Group C cars, which to me is a mess.

 

[Samus]

No, they need to stop mixing wildly different classes, not continue bunching together even more. I don't know why anyone wants to drive cars with huge power or weight BOP changes.

 

[05XR8]

I agree. Can't see why PD only followed GT3 rules and left all other classes open. Yes, GT3 was/is huge from when PD developed GT Sport. It was growing when they made GT6(hence the official GT3 event in the game).

For the sake of the Manufacturers Cup, they should have kept all rules the same as the real world. I mean, it's what PD are simulating.

 

[Razgriz2118]

No, they need to stop mixing wildly different classes, not continue bunching together even more. I don't know why anyone wants to drive cars with huge power or weight BOP changes.

I honestly hope that PD does begin to split classes up, this was more of a thought experiment if they don't but one day include more prototype cars. I'd hope that a separate class gets made for them, such as Gr. P2 for LMP2 or something, rather than create something like Gr. 1 with modern LMP1 cars and Group C cars together.

 

[Epic B]

That was an idea floating around in my head as well, which is to shuffle around classes, just for "future-proofing" of the concept in the off-chance that more prototypes get added to the game. So there could be a Gr. P2 for LMP2/DPi cars, for example.

From just quick research (because all of this thinking time is really procrastination time), a DPi weighs around 2000 lbs with the driver and makes around 600 HP, while a GT500 car weights around 2250 lbs and makes around 650 HP.



Gr. 1 has prototypes, but adding every type of prototype car into it I feel will cause balancing issues, since DPi/LMP2 are a "class below" LMP1 cars. They could be BoP-ed, but I have a feeling it'll be difficult getting the balance right. Plus, if you throw those cars in, now you have a Gr. 1 that has LMP1, LMP2, DPi, and Group C cars, which to me is a mess.

In that case it's a tossup whether DPi cars could go in Group 1 or 2. Though those on paper specs aren't too far off from a few of the non-hybrid Group 1s.

 

[GBalao888]

To this day, IMSA DPi still confuses me as to whether or not it’s faster than LMP2, or is at the same pace.

LMP2 can never be in Gr. 1 because of their lower-tier performance compared to their LMP1 counterparts. So there is a bit of a problem here. Unless they reposition Super GT/JGTC/DTM cars into another category (likely called “Gr. S” or “Super Touring”), it would feel weird to have them in Gr. 2 right away, as you would be mixing up LMP2 cars with these super touring cars. It just doesn’t feel right.

 

[Epic B]

To this day, IMSA DPi still confuses me as to whether or not it’s faster than LMP2, or is at the same pace.

LMP2 can never be in Gr. 1 because of their lower-tier performance compared to their LMP1 counterparts. So there is a bit of a problem here. Unless they reposition Super GT/JGTC/DTM cars into another category (likely called “Gr. S” or “Super Touring”), it would feel weird to have them in Gr. 2 right away, as you would be mixing up LMP2 cars with these super touring cars. It just doesn’t feel right.

While I would lump GT500 and DTM cars together, modern GT300s would probably fit better in Group 3.

 

[Veinz]

No, this is one my my main gripes with GTS. They need to put more effort in grouping cars properly so we don’t have unbalanced categories like Gr. 4, Gr. 1, Gr. X, and all the road cars.

 

[MIE1992]

Regarding everyone's concerns with Gr.1 balancing, I think that between the return of the PP system and the idea of having races that limit which cars within a class can enter - such as a Daily Race in GT Sport which only permitted the Group C cars within Gr.1 - I think these concerns can be addressed, either through vehicle restrictions or with PP limitations.

I think a lot of these concerns come from how in GTS, most daily races allow all cars within a class to enter when a given class is featured, and races that limit the selection of cars within a group are seemingly rare - whereas if I were designing the daily races (or their successor in GT7) I'd make this the norm, where you'd almost never be allowed to pick any car in a class when said class is featured. For another example, I'd love an N400 race where you could only pick between the two pickup trucks.

In fact, I'd make it so that the only time you'd likely see almost every car within a class, would be the Manufacturers Series. I would also expand Gr.1 to have more manufacturers represented, insofar that Gr.1 could potentially be in the Manufacturers Series, and not solely Gr.3 and Gr.4. Perhaps even N-Series races could take place within the Manufacturers Series, too! And in that regard, when a given N-Series class is featured, you'd only be able to pick cars that are in that class as-stock; you wouldn't be able to tweak the HP so that a car can transcend N-Series classes. There could even be special motifs for N-Series races in the Manufacturers Series, such as a given decade, drivetrain, or engine type.

 

[Samus]

Trying to cram race cars from 50+ years of motoring into only four classes will just never work.

 

[fortbo]

I think DPI should be in GR1 especially since we already have things such as the non hybrid R18 in it. Right now DPI and LMP2 are separate classes with DPI having a pretty substantial performance advantage over P2. Even when they were the same class, P2 cars struggled to compete with the DPI’s. Current LMP2 cars are also lapping about as fast if not faster than most LMP1 cars from previous years so with DPI being even faster than that, it’s a no brainer to include them.

 

[HyperzCars]

Or just give Daytona Prototypes their own class. Unless bopping them into Group 1 is viable. What's the spec sheet for a DPi?

Dpi would not work in gr1. They are very good cars, Acura and Cadillac are good guys and proud of their hard effort they put into their cars. I doubt they would give a license to their cars to be dumped into a tier of cars they dont belong in. Grid has the Acura and Cadillac DPi Cars, take them for a race around Indianapolis and Suzuka and get a feel for what DPi is. It does not belong with gr2 or gr1. It would be good to see Ginetta join DPi too.

 

[GTveteran]

I think the only expansion of Gr.2 should be to add DTM cars new Super GT cars or Polyphony made cars, eg: Mustang, Corvette C7, Jaguar F-type Gr.2 etc. Gr.2 seems to be aimed at the Class One type touring cars primarily so I think any home made versions should be designed with that ruleset in mind.

If Polyphony were to add in DTM cars from say 2012-2014 (just after BMW rejoined) these could be BoP'd the same as the 2008 Super GT cars have been. While I'm not entirely against that happening I would prefer it not to. Same goes for adding in even older JGTC cars. Put them in a class of their own.

 

[TiMcF1]

As I contemplate the potential inclusion of different types of race cars, the more I wonder if we would be just better off calling the racing classes for what they are in the real motorsports. But maybe GR cars can still keep the GR prefix, but official racing cars will have there intended class names.

Though that could pose another problem, because we can be forgiven for assuming that Gr.4 is supposed to be a representative of the GT4 class in real motorsports. That means there could potentially be 2 more classes below that GR.5 and GR.6. That could literally be WTCC cars and well..., not quite sure how to term cars in this category, as different racing series coin it uniquely, but GR.6 would basically be your, Ginetta G40, Clio, GT86, cup cars etc.

The simplest way to lump all those cars into their individual classes would be to call them Gr.5 and Gr.6. The Gr prefix causes confusion though when refering to super touring cars in GR.2 and LMP2 cars. As well as GTLM should they finally make an appearance in greater numbers for GT7 and be seperated from Gr.3.

In both of those cases I reckon it would probably best to call those classes for what they are, GTLM and LMP2.

 

[DemioXDTourng]

Ahem.

Gr.5

 

[ScottPuss20]

Ahem.

Gr.5

Already taken.

 

[meekrab]

To this day, IMSA DPi still confuses me as to whether or not it’s faster than LMP2, or is at the same pace.

IMSA DPi will always be faster than IMSA LMP2 because Acura Cadillac and Mazda put a ton of money into the series and want their cars running in front, but the LMP2s running in ELMS might be faster (different air restrictor or tires) because they're the top class there, and in WEC they run behind LMP1s at least for the next year that are much quicker than DPis so there's also room for them to be faster. It is a bit confusing, especially because the Cadillac DPi is essentially just an engine-swapped LMP2. The technical regs are largely equivalent with the targets being 930kg and 600hp, the DPis are faster because IMSA BoPs them that way.

 

[MrRaahzeel]

All i want is DTM : The RS5, C63, M4

 

[MIE1992]

All i want is DTM : The RS5, C63, M4

Agreed, DTM seems like it'd be well at home in Gr.2.

Also, on second thought, I'm not too sure about LMP2 cars being in Gr.1. I think it'd make the group too "busy," especially when you consider my idea of LMP2 allowing for a real-world Alpine in Gr.1, as there 's the news that Alpine could be joining LMP1. Instead, I think I'd rather see DPi, LMP900, LMGTP, and two more real-world classes in Gr.1: Le Mans Hypercar and LMDh. Though I don't think those two will coming to GT7 at launch, so they could either be DLC or come in a future installment. I still feel confident that IMSA GTP could be added to Gr.1, too, given that Group C is already in there.

Though I think we should definitely consider the late-90s GT1 cars, too, as I'm very unsure of where they'd fit in. The Panoz Esperante GTR-1, for example, was in this group, but it was later in GTP class, so you would think it might be good for Gr.1. Indeed, the Jaguar XJR-9 is within Gr.1, being a Group C car, and it says that the car was also for IMSA GTP. Of course, there are actual LMPs from Panoz, too.

Anyway, if PD decides to add LMP2 cars to Gr.1, I can't say I'll complain, especially if it's to get other automakers into Gr.1, such as Lotus and MG. Perhaps Nissan could also have the Onroak DPi for an example of Nissan trying prototype racing again after the disastrous GT-R LM Nismo.

 

[tankuroded]

To be honest, it's pretty clear that loophole era GT1 cars and sub-LMP1 prototypes cars are still a huge gray area when it comes to where the cars would be classified right now - there's not yet any precedent from PD about where these cars would go in which group.

Another gray area I would like to consider is the 1997 Castrol Supra GT. In it's previous year, it did fight against a short-tail McLaren F1 GTR and the practice lap times for them seems close enough that the '97 Supra could fell into Gr.3 instead of Gr.2 (this was the main reason I advocated for the 2005 YellowHat Supra instead if PD wanted to add a GT500 A80 Supra to Gr.2, hopefully in a package deal with the HSV-010 and 2006 Fairlady Z):

All Japan GT Fuji:
Lark F1 GTR '96: 1:30.255
Supra GT500 '97: 1:29.213 (Team SARD)

Sugo GT:
Lark F1 GTR '96: 1:22.630
Supra GT500 '97: 1:22.525 (Team 5Zigen)
(via here: 1996, 1997)