Ferrari 400i, will it eat my life?

[E38]

I'm looking for an interesting car for Sunday drives and "special occasions" (like car runs, club outings etc).

In my search I've found a tidy 1981 Ferrari 400i. It has the injected 4.8l V12, three speed auto and has done 40,000kms.

It has full service history and would cost me about the same as a new Subaru Forester.

I already have a daily driver (e38 7 series BMW), a couple of track toys and my wife has a reliable car (2008 Golf GTi) so this would only be used infrequently.

So my question is, do you think this will be a road to disappointment or an opportunity to get into an "affordable" Ferrari and have some fun along the way?

 

[Tornado]

I too have thought of buying a 412 Automatic. I am also slightly insane. Take from that what you will.

 

[Northstar]

It's affordable until something breaks, than you are screwed as the car is rare so parts will be near impossible to find, also extremely expensive. Not to mention it's an auto, which kind of ruins the whole point of a sports car. Also, that interior looks rather worn.

You are probably better off buying an early 90's Ferrari if you really want one.

 

[E38]

I too have thought of buying a 412 Automatic. I am also slightly insane. Take from that what you will.

:lol It sounds like you and I have a similar approach to our automotive lives. My wife and friends always accuse of being a sucker for punishment when it comes to cars.

It's affordable until something breaks, than you are screwed as the car is rare so parts will be near impossible to find, also extremely expensive. Not to mention it's an auto, which kind of ruins the whole point of a sports car. Not to mention that interior looks rather worn.

You are probably better off buying an early 90's Ferrari if you really want one.

You are right, I can't imagine that parts are going to be that cheap. But, it's not going to be needed on a daily basis, so if it has to sit for a few months while a find the parts required then so be it.

I would actually prefer an auto as it is going to be used for relaxing and cruising, not fast blasts. I have three manual cars (Golf GTi, Abarth Turbo and Mazda Familia GTR) that I can call upon for when that urge needs satisfying.

The interior leather is just "hungry" It's not split, so I would imagine that it would come up well with some decent conditioning.

I would love a later model Ferrari, but 1990 348s are double the price and 355s are almost triple the price. I just can't justify spending $80K-120K on a toy.

 

[Tornado]

I'm pretty sure the later versions of the car (the 412) cost about the same. The 400 series basically the same price across the board (in America, at least), and they represent the absolute bottom of the Ferrari market more or less. Keep in mind the Ferrari 400is basically drive like Camrys. V12 Camrys, but still. I only ever wanted one because I've always had an odd love for the styling, and I would still jump on one at a moment's notice, but it is something to note.

What would a 328/308 cost in New Zealand? In America they cost only a little more than 400is do, and I have to say that even I would consider a properly sorted 328 over a 400. They are certainly more reliable and cheaper to work on, and probably no slower all things considering.

 

[E38]

I've never seen a 412 in New Zealand. There are two 400is here that I am aware of, this one and an identical one in Auckland.

Mondails are about the same price as this 400i, but I prefer the styling of 400i and I like the idea of a V12 Grand Tourer.

308/328s prices seem to range from $60k for a ropey one through to $100k for a minter.

I'm not necessarily looking for a Ferrari (although, I do want to own at least one in my lifetime). I'm attracted to this 400i because it is an uncommon and somewhat unloved model and I tend to be drawn to unloved cars (I've owned a Maserati Bi-turbo before ).

 

[homeforsummer]

I've always quite liked the 400i, despite it's unpopularity. The Mondial, too, and the 308 GT4 Dino with it's lovely Bertone wedge shape. A bad Ferrari is still better than a good something else

With cars like this they always advise you to buy on condition. If it looks good and the only problems are either minor cosmetics or stuff you can realistically fix yourself, then it seems like the right car to go for.

Also, you just have to keep repeating the word "V12" over and over to yourself until you simply have to buy it. And the one you're looking at is in the best colour, deep metallic blue. IMO, front-engine Ferraris should always be in that blue, mid-engine ones should be red.

 

[Eric.]

*puts this one in the "Car's you never knew existed..." column*

 

[Zenith]

I've always had an adoration for the 400i. It's like a fat kid coming from a family of supermodels.

It's going to cost more and break down more often than you think, but since this is a Sunday driver, I'd go for it.

Also, I'd stick to this one. You'll get serious cool points for owning an affordable Ferrari that isn't a 308 and isn't in red.

 

[niky]

As long as it's mechanically sound, possibly a good buy. Even the most unloved Ferrari is still a Ferrari (take that as you will), and it's probably at the bottom of its depreciation curve... arcing upwards over the next decade or so.

Looks lovely... I'd definitely consider one as a Sunday-driver / Garage queen.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Having worked on a few of these I am pretty fond of them. The 3 speed auto trans in a GM unit, which will hold up. These cars like all Ferraris of the time have 2 of everything. 2 Ignition distributors, fuel distributors, fuel pumps, fuel and oil filters....and it goes on. So maintainence is the biggest thing with these cars. Make sure the car has a good history with records.

They aren't the most desirable of Ferraris, but its still a Ferrari. Having said that, they aren't as well taken care of as the higher end cars of the time like the 512BB.

They also hold 21 quarts of oil.

 

[TheCracker]

Do it.

I love the 400/412, fantastic looking car and this one is the perfect colour for one too 👍

Any car of that age is going to have issues at some point and an Italian one with a V12 probably more so. But you know that anyway. It's also about 347% cooler than a similar aged 308.

The 400i and the like are at absolute rock-bottom value wise at the moment so can only increase in value from now on - It's just at that age where it's going from being just 'some old Ferrari' to 'classic' status. Servicing and other costs might cancel out any rise in value over time but at the same time you won't loose much on it.

 

[E38]

I'm impressed at the 400i love here

I've booked in a PPI with the local Ferrari garage so I'll see what they come back with.

 

[Paulie]

It has full service history and would cost me about the same as a new Subaru Forester.

I already have a daily driver (e38 7 series BMW), a couple of track toys and my wife has a reliable car (2008 Golf GTi) so this would only be used infrequently.
So my question is, do you think this will be a road to disappointment or an opportunity to get into an "affordable" Ferrari and have some fun along the way?

This. Your daily is a 7-series, you have a couple of track cars, your wife owns a hot hatch, and aside from the fact you want more, the price is what you're worried about? If I had your kind of money, damn!

 

[McLaren]

I personally think you're better off looking for a 308 or 348 model for your first Ferrari. Should be around the same price as a 400i, & both usually don't need as much maintenance as the 400i.

My 2 cents on the subject, but you may like this thread.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171841&highlight=400i+maintenance

 

[Legendary]

This. Your daily is a 7-series, you have a couple of track cars, your wife owns a hot hatch, and aside from the fact you want more, the price is what you're worried about? If I had your kind of money, damn!

My thoughts exactly . That must be some career....

 

[Stotty]

It's a money pit... avoid like the plague!

 

[E38]

I personally think you're better off looking for a 308 or 348 model for your first Ferrari. Should be around the same price as a 400i, & both usually don't need as much maintenance as the 400i.

My 2 cents on the subject, but you may like this thread.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171841&highlight=400i+maintenance

Thanks for the link. That was very interesting. Especially the comment that they don't like being a garage queen...

As I mentioned earlier good 3 series Ferraris are $30k+ on top of what this 400 is. I can't really justify spending $80k on a toy. Especially one that will require expensive maintenance.

This. Your daily is a 7-series, you have a couple of track cars, your wife owns a hot hatch, and aside from the fact you want more, the price is what you're worried about? If I had your kind of money, damn!

The purchase price is not really a concern (within limits of course). It's the ongoing maintenance costs that I'm worried about. My 7 costs me about $5k a year in maintenance, but the quality of the drive is worth it in my mind.

I've heard that these 400s can need an engine rebuild/full service at around the 50k mark, which would be around $30k. It's stuff like this that I'm wary of.

My thoughts exactly . That must be some career....

My wife and I both have good jobs, we have no desire for kids. Plus it helps that second hand cars are cheap to buy in New Zealand. My wife's VW is worth more than all my cars combined...

It's a money pit... avoid like the plague!

How big a money pit are we talking here?

 

[Paulie]

I didn't even see you were from NZ.

 

[Stotty]

Anything that goes wrong will a 400i is going to be mega expensive to fix...

1. It's 30 years old, and as such is from a time when Ferrari weren't exactly renown for producing reliable cars... particulalrly the electrics!

2. Spares are going to be really hard to find... particularly in NZL, were I'd expect these were sold in minute numbers... so very few donor cars to get 2nd hand parts from.

3. An engine rebuild is going to cost in the 10s of thousands of dollars range. It's a V12... and a complex one at that. The parts bill will be huge and there's going to be many hours labour involved too.

What makes old cars like this affordable is finding a good independant to do the maintenance... is there one in your area? If there is, talk to him first about the likely costs and potential pitfalls of ownership. And if you're still committed to the car get someone who really understands them to inspect it inside out before you hand over your cash.

From what I've read, the 400 series is regarded as one of the least desirable Ferrari models. The running costs are legendary and they aren't supposedly that good to drive either (never driven one myself). If you really want a Ferrari why not go for something like a 308/328 and get the real experience (though running costs are still likely to be mega)?

EDIT:
just read the Ferrarichat like posted by McLaren... that should explain to you how expensive these are to run...

Exhaust $4-$6k 'A muffler for my '84 QV is $6200 at the dealer. Just the muffler in a box, not installed, no pipes, no dounuts, just the muffler in a box'
Disributor caps $250-$900
Front suspension $2k

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Getting a Ferrari, seems a good idea to me.
This particular one, I'm not sure. Ferrari V12 could be fun though.

On the cost all depends, if you want to sell it and show a full record, it will be expensive for sure.
If you do not care how it is solved and you have some friend mechanics, that have some links to people that can fix things, it could be worth the risk. You can take your time to find a reasonable solution when (notice not if) things break. Be ready to put up with some misery when going into old cars.

If you do not feel the passion, wait till the passion is there.
If you do feel the passion, let it talk in reason to you.

 

[Tornado]

If you really want a Ferrari why not go for something like a 308/328 and get the real experience (though running costs are still likely to be mega)?

Because he already said (several times) that getting a 308/328 would add 30k to the purchase price.

 

[exigeracer]

One of my favorite Ferraris. And I dislike almost all of them. Pull the trigger and have a bit of fun with it (although I'd love a white one, myself).

 

[McLaren]

Thanks for the link. That was very interesting. Especially the comment that they don't like being a garage queen...

As I mentioned earlier good 3 series Ferraris are $30k+ on top of what this 400 is. I can't really justify spending $80k on a toy. Especially one that will require expensive maintenance.

From what I'm reading, the 400i in maintenance is on average, more than the 308/348 model, so in the end, both cars may even out in terms of money spent. As someone on FChat said, a $25-30K 400i can turn into a $40K+ one real quick.

Simple thing is mate, if you're worried about the expensive maintenance, then a Ferrari may not be for you.

Gregg,

Listen to Dave, on this. There is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari. Even if you do all of the work yourself, the parts are expensive and remember, as these cars age, all of the soft bits will eventually need to be replaced. When you look at cars, proceed very carefully, it's not fun realising that the $25k car you just bought needs $15k to make it into a good $30k car.

Regards,

Art S.

 

[Jim Prower]

I'm gonna take the Tom & Ray Magliozzi stance on this: Get it. It'll be the best time of your life...until it breaks. At which point, either you SBC/SBF/SBChry/Rover it, or it becomes the world's largest paperweight.

 

[a112]

I've always quite liked the 400i, despite it's unpopularity. The Mondial, too, and the 308 GT4 Dino with it's lovely Bertone wedge shape.

You just wrote what I was going to write in this thread. 👍

 

[JCE]

Great looking car, but a mechanical nightmare. If the parts were more common I'd say go for it but knowing that they are rare as hell and expensive beyond belief I'd steer clear.

 

[Philly]

I would say it would definitely eat your life. But if a MKV GTI is your definition of reliable, then you might not consider the Ferrari to be that bad...

 

[E38]

I would say it would definitely eat your life. But if a MKV GTI is your definition of reliable, then you might not consider the Ferrari to be that bad...

Compared to an e38 BMW, two 80's Fiats and an Alpha from the same period that are currently residing in my garage and the Maserati Bi-Turbo that filled the e38's spot before it, the Golf is a paragon of Reliability

Well I went to take a look at the 400i today and I've decided it's not the car for me. It was quick-ish (relatively speaking), made a wonderful noise and smelt "right"; sort of a mixture of leather, petrol and oil. But, it just didn't feel that special.

My e38 is a cantankerous, fuel hungry sod at the best of times, but it makes up for it when you drive it. The Bi-turbo would only start when it felt like it and you constantly had to live with the fear of spontaneous fires, but on the right road on the right day it was magic.

So if I'm going to pour my hard earned money down a black hole, then I want something "special" in return. The 400i just didn't have "it" in sufficient quantities to justify the outlay.

The PPI also identified a few things to sort out and it is due for a full service.

So in this battle, the head won. For now.

The dealer did have a lovely, low mileage Porsche 928 S4 which called out to me...

 

[Paulie]

You sure know how to pick them! The Porsche 928 would make a great car IMO, and there aren't many notably modified ones around (a loud V8 rumbling Porsche would draw looks), but they are really complicated engines and not the most reliable ever. On the plus side, they are cheap to buy in the first place.👍