FFB vs Physics

[Animera]

I read so many posts stating things along the lines of 'The physics of game x feel ...' that I've created this thread to discuss the differences and /or relationship between FFB and physics of a racing game.

I drive a car every day of my life. When I go over cats eyes in the road I feel nothing on my steering wheel. I hear the sound of the wheel going over it and I feel it through my seat.

This got me thinking about racing games that we play with wheels and how we determine how realistic / unrealistic they are. For me, all I can compare them to is how driving my little Corolla feels and since I only have a wheel in a game I want my wheel to feel the same as it does in my car.

Do we sometimes confuse FFB with physics? I think so.

Anyhow, this thread is not about any particular game, it's to discuss FFB and physics.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Easy for me, separate them. Physics analyzed, it's math, input and output, FFB is feedback dependent on the quality of the input device used. One can play with different wheel with different quality of FFB on the same game/same car/same setup/same track/ same tire/ same everything, and can tell different stories of how the car felt ( smoothness of wheel play, vibrations, self centering, deadzone, strength of the feedback, information felt etc ), but physics will remain the same/constant.

One game can have detailed physics but lackluster FFB, the other way around can also happen, due to myriad of things like wheel used, FFB settings, and how the dev translate the physics output to FFB signal. So best to analyze them separately. Often though, people mixed them up and when asked about the physics side only, still used FFB experience to answer

 

[skazz]

There is a fundamental choice which separates the two worlds of FFB from each other:

1. You can choose to build a sim with just steering rack forces felt through the wheel
2. You can augment the rack forces with "seat of the pants" effects to give the virtual driver more information on what the car is doing and thereby make life easier.

If we all had motion rigs and buttkickers to deliver those extra effects, then obviously option 1 would be fine. But we don't, so most sims opt for option 2.


However, option 1 and 2 have nothing to do with physics, they are purely about one method by which the physics is communicated to the user. The other main cues are obviously visual and audio. And all 3 are dependent on the quality of the user hardware (e.g. video lag, bad audio quality and poor FFB wheels distort the message the game is trying to give).


if a sim is unable to communicate the underlying physics (either through poor FFB/audio or through poor user equipment), those physics are still there. That is what telemetry is for.

 

[kikie]

My personal opinion.

FFB is BS. FFB is crap. FFB is not realistic but some people like it and can't play race games without FFB. I play race games with a very limited amount of FFB and even less FFB effects. I like it that way.

FFB is to translate to our steering wheel what we feel with our bodies in real cars. Because we are sitting stationary in our race cockpit thing, we don't feel what the car does, so we (not me though) need FFB.

 

[LeMansAid]

FFB is to translate to our steering wheel what we feel with our bodies in real cars. Because we are sitting stationary in our race cockpit thing, we don't feel what the car does, so we (not me though) need FFB.

Absolutely incorrect, and I'm not sure why you continue trying to convince people of it. In every instance where a steering wheel in real life driving would move (or try to move) by itself, representing that force is far more realistic than having a dead wheel. What you're essentially saying is because some games/sims represent forces not reflective of reality (g-forces on the body, etc.), that no ffb should be used at all. You've "thrown the baby out with the bath water".

 

[kikie]

Absolutely incorrect, and I'm not sure why you continue trying to convince people of it. In every instance where a steering wheel in real life driving would move (or try to move) by itself, representing that force is far more realistic than having a dead wheel. What you're essentially saying is because some games/sims represent forces not reflective of reality (g-forces on the body, etc.), that no ffb should be used at all. You've "thrown the baby out with the bath water".

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I don't know where you get that. I'm just saying that it is a personal opinion and that I don't like FFB at all and that it is not entirely realistic at all. I didn't say that there shouldn't be any FFB at all. As I said, some people can't play without FFB, so FFB should be in a game. The only thing I need is resistance from the wheels of the surface in my steering wheel. Again, personal opinion.

I stand by what I said about FFB and what we feel in our bodies. I have to say that I forgot to mention that FFB also represents the forces exerted to the steering wheel from the front wheels, suspension etc... . Althoug this is in real life very limited. In real the force are filtered out for some part by the suspension, powersteering, electric steering (modern cars) etc ... . I'm talking about road cars in general.
Even my father's 42 y.o. Mercedes /8 without any powersteering doesn't have that kind of forces in the steering wheel.
Even de Formula Ford that I drove on the Zolder track didn't have FFB like in a race game.

Again, I know that there are forces on the steering wheel in real life but they are not as in race/driving games.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Just to add what I have said above, I have no issue driving with stick controller, for me, wheel+FFB is not needed, it's more like luxury than necessity, and yes, I've played racing games with wheel since long time ago ( from T2 wheel days ), arcades like Battle Gear, Sega F355 with H shifter/clutch, also played with Logitech DFGT and G27 ( mate's place ) I can still drive with wheels even with FFB disabled. FFB provides extra information, but those information is optional for me, just like I drive with stick and not using any feedback other than sound/visual. The problem for me is FFB felt on the wheel are often not accurate or just effects to make me believe the car is doing something, no matter how natural people said FFB can be, it's never going to be accurate as the real car steering wheel. One of the them is weight, different cars have different weight, feel and resistance ( steering type, power assist, diameter, tire size, etc ) that can't be simulated well enough.
I'm not even touching the self centering force ( when drifting, gymkhana in both dry and wet/heavy rain ), non assisted steering on sticky/wide tires + low speed ( parking speed ), uneven/rough road surface ( pot holes, dips, gravel, mud etc ), steering quirks like juddering, vibrations and unique steering wheel characteristics of particular car ( variable steering, electric etc ), especially when on front wheel drive with specific LSD or differing tire pressure side to side ( oval racing )

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I've said this a lot in other threads as well. FFB and physics are certainly separate and they exist on different scales. Meaning one can be good and the other bad in the same game. A lot of people confuse the two as the same and that's why we have so many heated discussions in the sim racing scene where no one can agree on any particular thing.

IMO, FFB in a sim needs to be slightly "exaggerated" compared to real life to be good. You don't realise how much of the feeling when driving IRL comes from g-forces and seat-of-pants. Next time you take a drive, try to imagine the g-forces are not there and just use your brain to focus on the feeling coming purely from the wheel. Even in hard cornering there's actually not that much feel. Especially with modern cars with their overly assisted steering, it's just numb. Now imagine that muted feeling when you're playing a game on a couch. Even if the underlying physics is exactly as real life, I bet a majority of people will say the FFB sucks.

AC tries to keep everything as close to real life as possible. It can be a bit muted, but it is the closest thing to a pure FFB. ISImotor sims like Automobilista exaggerates a bit more. Feels more "gnarly" and communicative (and to me, subjectively better), but for purists it may not be acceptable to add in canned effects. Until everyone has motion simulators in their homes, I don't think this debate will ever be settled. As long as you realize this fact, we can all chose to enjoy driving games the way each of us prefers

More of my philosophical ramblings here, if you're interested:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ps4-and-xbox-one.329736/page-64#post-11503949

 

[LeMansAid]

The problem for me is FFB felt on the wheel are often not accurate or just effects to make me believe the car is doing something, no matter how natural people said FFB can be, it's never going to be accurate as the real car steering wheel. One of the them is weight, different cars have different weight, feel and resistance ( steering type, power assist, diameter, tire size, etc ) that can't be simulated well enough.
I'm not even touching the self centering force ( when drifting, gymkhana in both dry and wet/heavy rain ), non assisted steering on sticky/wide tires + low speed ( parking speed ), uneven/rough road surface ( pot holes, dips, gravel, mud etc ), steering quirks like juddering, vibrations and unique steering wheel characteristics of particular car ( variable steering, electric etc ), especially when on front wheel drive with specific LSD or differing tire pressure side to side ( oval racing )

That's a lot of words to explain something that completely misses the point. I'll counter it much more simply - the right amount of force, at the right time...... that's it. That's all that's needed.

Still, that only gets us to theoretical reality. In attempting to reproduce practical reality, it could be argued that consideration should be given to how hands and wheel move relative to each other while driving, and not just the purely mechanical force of the wheel. A particular bump in the road may not result in any rotational force on a steering wheel, but still move the steering wheel relative to the driver's hands. The car (including steering wheel) will jolt, and the seated body (and by extension, the hands) will jolt in a different way and cause an interaction at the wheel. G-forces do actually genuinely cause hand/wheel interaction as well.

So.....

My personal opinion...... FFB is not realistic

We don't get to have an opinion on that theoretical reality. It's raw, cold, hard, numbers in the end, and force feedback is entirely capable of delivering the perfect realisation of those numbers in the form of "the right amount of force, at the right time". At that point, it's a replication rather than a simulation, of reality.

Conversely, a replication of practical reality is basically an impossibility (even with the most sophisticated motion gear), and a merely abstract simulation of it is the best we can hope for. We absolutely get to have an opinion on this. Back to the bump in the road that exerts force, but not rotational force - is a sideways jolt on a wheel more realistic than no movement at all? Completely subjective, and this is where opinion reigns. There are interesting conversations to be had about abstract simulations of force by ffb code and wheels, but there's no more hope of gaining a high grounded superior view than there is with conversations about what music is better. That's the nature of subjectivity.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

^I don't think that's a good analogy. Music taste is purely subjective, that we can agree. But FFB can be objective. Say a 5x5 cm bump when runover by a Ford Fiesta in real life produces a 5mm right-left-right wheel shake in 1 second. If a Fiesta in a game runs over the same bump and delivers the same movements to your game wheel that is correct. What's important is the output is the same for a given input between game and IRL. The number crunching in between can't be exactly the same (because no one has cracked every question of physics in the universe), but with maths and approximation it can be solved. Same thing with physics. Car X on corner Y at speed Z, with track temps A, asphalt grip B and wind speed C will take a corner at a certain way IRL. If that is replicated in game, the physics is correct. How the physics engine gets there need not be 100% the same as real life (but it should be pretty close).

The subjective part with FFB comes from whether to add g-forces effects and road feel or not. Without motion simulators, we don't get that in a game. This is where the divide amongst racing sims come from.

The subjective part with physics comes from pushing the limits where the same actions haven't been done in real life (e.g. Red Bull X cars, SRT Tomahawk, Chaparral 2X). You are stretching the curve beyond available data points, so your guess is as good as anyone's. But within the in-game universe at least (if you believe in the multiverse theory) what happens is still correct.

But again, I'm just an armchair expert like most people on the internet. The best way to evaluate physics & FFB is still through your own hands and formulate your own conclusions

 

[LeMansAid]

@LeGeNd-1 We are saying the same thing. Just replace theoretical with objective, and practical with subjective in my post.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just to add what I have said above, I have no issue driving with stick controller, for me, wheel+FFB is not needed, it's more like luxury than necessity, and yes, I've played racing games with wheel since long time ago ( from T2 wheel days ), arcades like Battle Gear, Sega F355 with H shifter/clutch, also played with Logitech DFGT and G27 ( mate's place ) I can still drive with wheels even with FFB disabled. FFB provides extra information, but those information is optional for me, just like I drive with stick and not using any feedback other than sound/visual. The problem for me is FFB felt on the wheel are often not accurate or just effects to make me believe the car is doing something, no matter how natural people said FFB can be, it's never going to be accurate as the real car steering wheel. One of the them is weight, different cars have different weight, feel and resistance ( steering type, power assist, diameter, tire size, etc ) that can't be simulated well enough.
I'm not even touching the self centering force ( when drifting, gymkhana in both dry and wet/heavy rain ), non assisted steering on sticky/wide tires + low speed ( parking speed ), uneven/rough road surface ( pot holes, dips, gravel, mud etc ), steering quirks like juddering, vibrations and unique steering wheel characteristics of particular car ( variable steering, electric etc ), especially when on front wheel drive with specific LSD or differing tire pressure side to side ( oval racing )

Looks like both Bryan Heitkotter and Nick McMillen, among many, many other real life racers, think that by racing in sims with a FFB wheel one can, "ingrain proper reactions and feeling into their muscle memory. Learning to feel understeer build, or the onset of oversteer and how to best correct it with the least time loss. That helps remove one thing to consciously think about when jumping into a real car on track.”

Sounds like simulation value is important after all.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Looks like both Bryan Heitkotter and Nick McMillen, among many, many other real life racers, think that by racing in sims with a FFB wheel one can, "ingrain proper reactions and feeling into their muscle memory. Learning to feel understeer build, or the onset of oversteer and how to best correct it with the least time loss. That helps remove one thing to consciously think about when jumping into a real car on track.”

Sounds like simulation value is important after all.

A real car driving can teach all that, and it's miles better than gaming wheel can ever do. I already know all those things when I drive real car, when I play games, FFB is not priority for me. Simulation value is overrated ,a toy wheel vs high end direct drive wheel will make simulation value multiply

BTW, how do those cars in AC drive when oversteering, do you need to guide the wheel or does the self aligning torque + caster works as it should ? From what I know, AC still has deficiencies in this aspect, easily seen when a car is sliding/drifting and driver countersteering, the wheel do not self centered like in real car would, the driver had to guide the wheel all the way.

 

[Johnnypenso]

A real car driving can teach all that, and it's miles better than gaming wheel can ever do. I already know all those things when I drive real car, when I play games, FFB is not priority for me. Simulation value is overrated ,a toy wheel vs high end direct drive wheel will make simulation value multiply

BTW, how do those cars in AC drive when oversteering, do you need to guide the wheel or does the self aligning torque + caster works as it should ? From what I know, AC still has deficiencies in this aspect, easily seen when a car is sliding/drifting and driver countersteering, the wheel do not self centered like in real car would, the driver had to guide the wheel all the way.

We're not talking about real cars, we're talking about FFB wheels so your point is moot as well as deliberately obtuse. These aren't the first drivers to tout the benefits of FFB wheels and simulators in general and they won't be the last. The benefits are obvious to anyone with an open mind.

Your question about AC is revealing. First, the discussion isn't about AC, it's about using FFB wheels in sims. Some sims are better than others in different aspects of simulation and various drivers use different sims. Second, you seem to think that FFB wheels have to be perfect in order to be more useful than a controller when it comes to analyzing physics when they obviously don't. No one is claiming they are perfect, just that they are much better than a controller which contains no FFB connected to the physics whatsoever. If nothing else, they can at least provide muscle memory which cannot be obtained through a controller like learning braking points and turn in points, something Heitkotter addresses in the article if you bothered to read it.

When drivers start racing with a stick the controller will be more useful in that regard. To address your question though, consider the fact that using a FFB wheel will tell you if the wheels self align while drifting which gives you insight into the physics model that you couldn't gain at all from using a controller, which kind of proves my point.

If professional drivers think using a FFB wheel is good for muscle memory perhaps they know something you don't know?

 

[killerjimbag]

We're not talking about real cars, we're talking about FFB wheels so your point is moot as well as deliberately obtuse. These aren't the first drivers to tout the benefits of FFB wheels and simulators in general and they won't be the last. The benefits are obvious to anyone with an open mind.

Your question about AC is revealing. First, the discussion isn't about AC, it's about using FFB wheels in sims. Some sims are better than others in different aspects of simulation and various drivers use different sims. Second, you seem to think that FFB wheels have to be perfect in order to be more useful than a controller when it comes to analyzing physics when they obviously don't. No one is claiming they are perfect, just that they are much better than a controller which contains no FFB connected to the physics whatsoever. If nothing else, they can at least provide muscle memory which cannot be obtained through a controller like learning braking points and turn in points, something Heitkotter addresses in the article if you bothered to read it.

When drivers start racing with a stick the controller will be more useful in that regard. To address your question though, consider the fact that using a FFB wheel will tell you if the wheels self align while drifting which gives you insight into the physics model that you couldn't gain at all from using a controller, which kind of proves my point.

If professional drivers think using a FFB wheel is good for muscle memory perhaps they know something you don't know?

Johnny don't point out the obvious. Perhaps all those "simulators" F1 teams use are irrelevant also!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

We're not talking about real cars, we're talking about FFB wheels so your point is moot as well as deliberately obtuse. These aren't the first drivers to tout the benefits of FFB wheels and simulators in general and they won't be the last. The benefits are obvious to anyone with an open mind.

Your question about AC is revealing. First, the discussion isn't about AC, it's about using FFB wheels in sims. Some sims are better than others in different aspects of simulation and various drivers use different sims. Second, you seem to think that FFB wheels have to be perfect in order to be more useful than a controller when it comes to analyzing physics when they obviously don't. No one is claiming they are perfect, just that they are much better than a controller which contains no FFB connected to the physics whatsoever. If nothing else, they can at least provide muscle memory which cannot be obtained through a controller like learning braking points and turn in points, something Heitkotter addresses in the article if you bothered to read it.

When drivers start racing with a stick the controller will be more useful in that regard. To address your question though, consider the fact that using a FFB wheel will tell you if the wheels self align while drifting which gives you insight into the physics model that you couldn't gain at all from using a controller, which kind of proves my point.

If professional drivers think using a FFB wheel is good for muscle memory perhaps they know something you don't know?

I only talk about my own view and preference, and I have said before, I don't need any urgency/feel to must have a wheel/FFB when playing a car game as I still feel they are not good enough for me, there's always something that bugs me when using wheel/FFB. If people reaps the benefits from using wheel, good for them and I'm not stopping them to do so.

For the bold part : SAT is there if the game simulate it, it makes no difference if the player uses stick controller or wheel, the SAT is the resulting reaction in the physics, it will be there regardless of the input used. In LFS, the self aligning torque is apparent even when I'm driving on skidpad with a keyboard ( as the car oversteer ) or when doing donuts.

Try this in AC, take any RWD car, do donuts and steer to full lock in the direction of the donuts, and let go of the wheel, see if the wheel moves or self centering.

 

[killerjimbag]

I only talk about my own view and preference, and I have said before, I don't need any urgency/feel to must have a wheel/FFB when playing a car game as I still feel they are not good enough for me, there's always something that bugs me when using wheel/FFB. If people reaps the benefits from using wheel, good for them and I'm not stopping them to do so.

For the bold part : SAT is there if the game simulate it, it makes no difference if the player uses stick controller or wheel, the SAT is the resulting reaction in the physics, it will be there regardless of the input used. In LFS, the self aligning torque is apparent even when I'm driving on skidpad with a keyboard ( as the car oversteer ) or when doing donuts.

Try this in AC, take any RWD car, do donuts and steer to full lock in the direction of the donuts, and let go of the wheel, see if the wheel moves or self centering.

Perhaps you can try out a RWD in AC.?

 

[skazz]

The thing is... because the game can't just pretend the front wheels are pointing a different direction to how your FFB steering wheel is oriented, the FFB wheel itself is ALWAYS the weak spot in the equation. Unless it has enough torque to handle whatever SAT is required from the game, the wheel will let you down and get in the way.

You see all those videos of people helping the wheel mostly because that wheel simply doesn't have enough torque to actually do what the game wants it to do.


Your best bet is to watch videos of people with direct drive wheels (of at least 12Nm) show SAT at work in simulators. That way you can actually see what the game is trying to do without the deficiencies of consumer grade wheels getting in the way. You will quickly see that sims like AC are plenty good enough at SAT if your wheel is capable.


For reference, a G27 can handle maybe 2Nm torque at the rim, DFGT is a bit less and has so much internal resistance that spin speed is horrible, a T300 can do 4Nm, CSWv2 can do 7Nm. From my experience the T300 torque is enough to allow you to simply let go in some cases but not others. The CSWv2 is probably fast enough in most cases, but belt driven wheels still have some latency, even the newest ones. A direct drive wheel of 12-25Nm is ample to demonstrate SAT without drawbacks.

 

[killerjimbag]

I only talk about my own view and preference, and I have said before, I don't need any urgency/feel to must have a wheel/FFB when playing a car game as I still feel they are not good enough for me, there's always something that bugs me when using wheel/FFB. If people reaps the benefits from using wheel, good for them and I'm not stopping them to do so.

For the bold part : SAT is there if the game simulate it, it makes no difference if the player uses stick controller or wheel, the SAT is the resulting reaction in the physics, it will be there regardless of the input used. In LFS, the self aligning torque is apparent even when I'm driving on skidpad with a keyboard ( as the car oversteer ) or when doing donuts.

Try this in AC, take any RWD car, do donuts and steer to full lock in the direction of the donuts, and let go of the wheel, see if the wheel moves or self centering.

Perhaps these guys don't know either. pretty sure their all using wheels.

 

[danbojte]

Force feedback:
"Some automobile steering wheel controllers, for example, are programmed to provide a "feel" of the road. As the user makes a turn or accelerates, the steering wheel responds by resisting turns or slipping out of control." *

"The simulating of physical attributes such as weight in computer gaming and virtual reality, allowing the user to interact directly with virtual objects using touch. **

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haptic_technology#Video_games

** https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/force_feedback

Racing wheels:
"An analog wheel and pedal set such as this allows the user to accurately manipulate steering angle and pedal control that is required to properly manage a simulated car, as opposed to digital control such as a keyboard. The relatively large range of motion further allows the user to more accurately apply the controls. Racing wheels have been developed for use with arcade games, game consoles, personal computers, and also for professional driving simulators for race drivers." ***

*** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_wheel