Fuel Capacity and Tuning Components

[chrisco84]

I am currently doing the WTC800 races and beat Daytona in the Mazda Stealth pretty easy.

I got an invite for the Pagani Huayra '13 last week and purchased it, I hadn't really driven it much as I was playing Sport dailies and finishing the GR3 Cup races.

So I figured I would tune up my fresh new Huayra as I paid a pretty penny for it (thanks FOMO) and use it in the 800 series.
I tuned it 760+ quite easily and was ready to go. Entered Daytona 10 lap race and it is a rocket, love it BUT -
The fuel consumption makes it near on impossible to win, I can get 4 laps out of it on 6 lean. So I have to pit twice.

I am new to tuning but am loving the learning curve.

My questions (remembering I am a total noob in tuning):

• Is there a way to check fuel consumption out of race? Even if I could compare it to my GR3 cars would give a general idea.
• Is there a way to see which tuning parts, or do any, affect fuel consumption? (I assume turbo etc would)
• Are there settings on the tuning sheet (I'm guessing aerodynamics) I can adjust to improve fuel consumption, and would someone explain those like I am 5 if so?
• Do different tyres affect fuel consumption?

I understand short shifting to limit revs and save fuel (only just learnt this), are there any other on track tactics?

Just to save me 100k of tuning up my other non GR cars for longer races really.

I appreciate in advance.

 

[Dess81]

I don't see any information about fuel capacity for every car.
I just don't understand why one car have fuel for 3,5 laps and another for 5,1 laps.
For example two cars:
Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR (setup: 512hp, 944kg) - 3.5 laps in Sardegna (fuel economy 1/6)
Nissan GT-R GT500 '08 (setup:524hp, 1114kg) - 5.1 laps in Sardegna (fuel economy 1/6)

I just understand why there is 1.5 laps less for Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR even it has less power and weight??? Can I find information about fuel capacity before buying the car?

 

[pedrocor]

I don't see any information about fuel capacity for every car.
I just don't understand why one car have fuel for 3,5 laps and another for 5,1 laps.
For example two cars:
Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR (setup: 512hp, 944kg) - 3.5 laps in Sardegna (fuel economy 1/6)
Nissan GT-R GT500 '08 (setup:524hp, 1114kg) - 5.1 laps in Sardegna (fuel economy 1/6)

I just understand why there is 1.5 laps less for Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR even it has less power and weight??? Can I find information about fuel capacity before buying the car?

Things are just as simple as that.
There are many other things to take in consideration.

First if the cars are road cars or race cars. Usually race cars have better fuel mileage than road cars. In this case both are race cars, but in any of the cases, the engine should be based on a road going version by regulation)

Still, the Nissan is 10 years "younger" than the Mercedes. So, one would expect to have a more modern, efficient engine than a Mercedes from the 90s. Indeed the 4.5 V8 engine on the Nissan is considered specially efficient, being used not only on GT500 car but the engine of choice for LMP2 cars (it had to be road going version also), even before they choose a single supplier. The Mercedes M119 didn't use direct injection fuel system, contrary to Nissan, so loss of efficiency there, as this systems evoluted immensely on the 10 years that separate this engines apart.

Also by regulation, the 98 GT1 cars should have a maximum of 100 litres fuel tank, the 2008 GT500 should have 120 litres, I believe, so 20 litres more.

In other hand, the Mercedes is for sure nerfed to meet PP requirements. Reducing HP would reduce consuption but isn't a clear cut like 20% cut on power gets you 20% less fuel consumption, because the reduction of power is more evident on peak power but far less significant at low and mid range, specially with power restrictor and usually the engine configuration and size in LM prototypes is selected to meet maximum efficiency for the target HP and mileage, not the other way around.

So, not being a clear cut, specially considering the GT500 weighs 170kg more, that's possible that being more modern, efficient and with 20 litres more, capable of more mileage.

 

[nickg07]

Maybe they need to add miles per gallon measurement to each car, if refueling is so important. It is also important to know the efficiency.

 

[Famine]

Also by regulation, the 98 GT1 cars should have a maximum of 100 litres fuel tank, the 2008 GT500 should have 120 litres, I believe, so 20 litres more.

All cars in Gran Turismo have a 100 litre fuel tank.

Maybe they need to add miles per gallon measurement to each car, if refueling is so important. It is also important to know the efficiency.

Fuel efficiency is neither set nor constant. It depends on how you drive and where you drive (as well as the lean/rich mix setting in the game).

 

[incredirog]

coasting into braking zones is an additional fuel saving measure

 

[B80]

Wish they had option to switch it off tbh.

 

[nickg07]

All cars in Gran Turismo have a 100 litre fuel tank.

Fuel efficiency is neither set nor constant. It depends on how you drive and where you drive (as well as the lean/rich mix setting in the game).

Yes but they could give us a metric that is say based around fuel consumption per mile at 100% throttle.

That would at least give an indication rather than zero indication at all.

 

[Famine]

Yes but they could give us a metric that is say based around fuel consumption per mile at 100% throttle.

That would vary depending on gear (and road speed) and surface inclination.

It would also be about 2-4mpg for everything.

 

[pedrocor]

Maybe they need to add miles per gallon measurement to each car, if refueling is so important. It is also important to know the efficiency.

Even in road cars you have different consumption as they are driven on city traffic, open roads or highways.
On a race car gas mileage has even more variables as, contrary to road cars that your speed is restricted by speed limits and the other cars around you, traffic lights and so but very uniform, a race car speed is also greatly dependent of the nature of the track (specially how much of the lap (%) you can do open throttle), the grip levels (which are related with the grip of the surface, the softness of the tire and how fast it degrades), the possibility to adjust fuel maps and the aero. On endurance and even F1, many times a choice on the rear wing is based not in pure performance/balance but also the drag level restrictions related do fuel mileage targets. If you take aero down, you will have to brake earlier, so less time on throttle, go on throttle later at corner exit and also less drag on straights, so less fuel consumption. Same car, same engine, same weight, could be a substantial delta.

Wish they had option to switch it off tbh.

It's switched off most of the races already, really.
Fuel consumption is only used in endurance races, which are characterized usually by to distinctive factors (fuel efficiency and tire management), so you spend as less time in pits as possible and lose less performance as possible while doing it. If you take that off on the maybe 20% that have it (or 1 of 3 in daily races usually), thats just another race, similar to all the other races in the game?

 

[nickg07]

Yes I drive a car I understand how fuel consumption works.

But an indicative consumption per mile at 100% throttle is pretty universal and a good yardstick.

Given that on most tracks you will be at 100% for over 50% of the lap it's the most relevant metric.

 

[Famine]

Yes I drive a car I understand how fuel consumption works.

But an indicative consumption per mile at 100% throttle is pretty universal and a good yardstick.

It's neither of those things.

Accelerating at WOT from 30mph in 4th will give a different fuel consumption figure than doing so in 2nd or in 6th. The differences in doing so will be different in different cars, depending on engine torque. If you're looking at doing it over a mile, do you change gear or bang off the redline constantly (both of which are affected by gearing too).

Probably the most objective (or at least the least subjective) way would be to hold a constant speed in a set gear - assuming the car is geared to be able to do that speed - but this would be useless for racing and would only lead to people bitching about their car which PD says can do 24mph emptying its tank in 60 miles.

Given all the myriad things that go into determining fuel economy you'd be better off looking at the information you have (engine capacity, induction, peak torque and torque curve) rather than any single figure you think PD should be generating - which will instantly go out of the window as soon as you hit the track.

 

[nickg07]

It's neither of those things.

Accelerating at WOT from 30mph in 4th will give a different fuel consumption figure than doing so in 2nd or in 6th. The differences in doing so will be different in different cars, depending on engine torque. If you're looking at doing it over a mile, do you change gear or bang off the redline constantly (both of which are affected by gearing too).

Probably the most objective (or at least the least subjective) way would be to hold a constant speed in a set gear - assuming the car is geared to be able to do that speed - but this would be useless for racing and would only lead to people bitching about their car which PD says can do 24mph emptying its tank in 60 miles.

Given all the myriad things that go into determining fuel economy you'd be better off looking at the information you have (engine capacity, induction, peak torque and torque curve) rather than any single figure you think PD should be generating - which will instantly go out of the window as soon as you hit the track.

So you are saying guess rather than having a standardised ingame measure?

That's what we are doing now and frankly it's poor.

Think about how the game shows BHP, yet we know that the peak bhp is only achieved at WOT for maybe less than 100rpm.

It doesn't mean it shouldn't be displayed.

Nor does it mean that we think a car had that exact bhp from 0rpm until the red line at part open throttle.

It's indicative of what is achievable in a given scenario.

The same can be for consumption. Make a curve if necessary that sits behind the headline figure...

 

[Daxus]

So you are saying guess rather than having a standardised ingame measure?

That's what we are doing now and frankly it's poor.

He is saying there is no way to have a standardized in-game value for fuel consumption that will be valid for most players because if PD would do that, most players will expect that amount of fuel to be used in a race, but it all depends on the driving style of the single player which can differ a lot from the other players, hence giving a value for an assumed fuel usage for all players is not feasible. Even IRL it's not correct for every driver, but there is no horde of keyboard warriors complaining the in-game value is not exactly the same as the in-race value.

I can tell you, if you practice and prepare for a race there is no issue. What we or at least I am doing is not poor. I am pretty slow, yet have won multiple races simply based on tactics.
Coasting, shortshifting, slipstream, everything depends how much time you lose doing that vs the time you lose WOT. How many pitstops, how long do they take, how slow is fillling fuel?


And yes, make a curve for us as an example, please

 

[nickg07]

He is saying there is no way to have a standardized in-game value for fuel consumption that will be valid for most players because if PD would do that, most players will expect that amount of fuel to be used in a race, but it all depends on the driving style of the single player which can differ a lot from the other players, hence giving a value for an assumed fuel usage for all players is not feasible. Even IRL it's not correct for every driver, but there is no horde of keyboard warriors complaining the in-game value is not exactly the same as the in-race value.

I can tell you, if you practice and prepare for a race there is no issue. What we or at least I am doing is not poor. I am pretty slow, yet have won multiple races simply based on tactics.
Coasting, shortshifting, slipstream, everything depends how much time you lose doing that vs the time you lose WOT. How many pitstops, how long do they take, how slow is fillling fuel?


And yes, make a curve for us as an example, please

Yes but say you buy one car and it only does 3 laps but you wanted the car that does 5 laps.

Unless Someone buys them both, tests them.and posts it here how wpuld you know before committing your credits ?

You wouldn't.

Look my car says 500 bhp why doesn't I has 500bhp at 100 rpm in reverse?

People aren't that stupid.

 

[Daxus]

Yes but say you buy one car and it only does 3 laps but you wanted the car that does 5 laps.

Unless Someone buys them both, tests them.and posts it here how wpuld you know before committing your credits ?

You wouldn't.

Look my car says 500 bhp why doesn't I has 500bhp at 100 rpm in reverse?

People aren't that stupid.

Any car can make 5 laps, depends on the time it does it in.

Like you say, people are not stupid, you can see your HP, hp is the movement of a certain weight over a certain distance in a certain time. You can easily convert the hp to Watts, you know the weight and the length of the track, therefor you can calculate how much energy is needed to complete the task.
It's pretty easy to calculate on your own, but the result will not equal your in-game fuel consumption for every track.

It does not have 500BHP in reverse because HP is work delivered over time, but it is still capable to, but not at 100rpm.

Buying cars and realizing you can't drive them and now have to grind for credits to buy a different car? That's Gran Turismo in a nutshell!

You could also ask people to join you at Special route X and make a list yourself in a (new) thread.

 

[NJ72]

To try and answer the OPs question - a car that is up-tuned (big turbo added etc.) it will usually have worse efficiency than a car that has been down tuned to the same PP.

That is. A HUGE generalisation, but still.

A GT3 car that's at 800pp compared to a road car tuned up to 800pp will be more efficient (usually)

 

[Famine]

peak bhp

 

[kjeldsen]

All cars in Gran Turismo have a 100 litre fuel tank.

Including road cars? I thought the tank size was part of the fuel economy game.

 

[Famine]

Including road cars? I thought the tank size was part of the fuel economy game.

Yup, all of them. It's part of the reason why small and light is overpowered in fuel use events - they've got more than twice the fuel capacity they should have!

 

[nickg07]

Any car can make 5 laps, depends on the time it does it in.

Like you say, people are not stupid, you can see your HP, hp is the movement of a certain weight over a certain distance in a certain time. You can easily convert the hp to Watts, you know the weight and the length of the track, therefor you can calculate how much energy is needed to complete the task.
It's pretty easy to calculate on your own, but the result will not equal your in-game fuel consumption for every track.

It does not have 500BHP in reverse because HP is work delivered over time, but it is still capable to, but not at 100rpm.

Buying cars and realizing you can't drive them and now have to grind for credits to buy a different car? That's Gran Turismo in a nutshell!

You could also ask people to join you at Special route X and make a list yourself in a (new) thread.

Why would I want to waste time and credits when PD could tell us?

When I say 5 laps I refer to a thread someone made showing that one car at the same pp / category made 3.5 laps before needing to refuel cinpared to others in the same group making it 5 laps.

That's a huge difference for what should be comparable bhp/weight.

Yet you wouldn't know unless it was tested.

 

[pedrocor]

Any car can make 5 laps, depends on the time it does it in.

Like you say, people are not stupid, you can see your HP, hp is the movement of a certain weight over a certain distance in a certain time. You can easily convert the hp to Watts, you know the weight and the length of the track, therefor you can calculate how much energy is needed to complete the task.
It's pretty easy to calculate on your own, but the result will not equal your in-game fuel consumption for every track.

It does not have 500BHP in reverse because HP is work delivered over time, but it is still capable to, but not at 100rpm.

Buying cars and realizing you can't drive them and now have to grind for credits to buy a different car? That's Gran Turismo in a nutshell!

You could also ask people to join you at Special route X and make a list yourself in a (new) thread.

Applying Power x Energy x Work laws from Physics 101 to internal combustion engines isn't really a good idea. Sure, there isn't anything wrong with them except they are established to perfect efficiency systems. So, when we are talking about internal combustion engines, efficiencies can go from mid 30s% to 50%, depending on many factors, like the fuel type (gasoline or diesel), induction system (naturally aspired, turbocharged, supercharged), fuel/air injection technology, valve train technology, thermodynamical proprieties of the materials used, the bore x stroke ratio, the architecture (a V6 or a inline 6 with the same bore x stroke dimensions work different due several factors), so really no point on using this laws.

For some of those reasons, a smaller, more modern V8 in a car build for more conventional tracks is more efficient on conventional tracks than a V8 build with Le Mans in mind (efficiency on longer periods at higher gear, almost top rpm), most of FIA-GT races it was used a 6.0 V12.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I am currently doing the WTC800 races and beat Daytona in the Mazda Stealth pretty easy.

I got an invite for the Pagani Huayra '13 last week and purchased it, I hadn't really driven it much as I was playing Sport dailies and finishing the GR3 Cup races.

So I figured I would tune up my fresh new Huayra as I paid a pretty penny for it (thanks FOMO) and use it in the 800 series.
I tuned it 760+ quite easily and was ready to go. Entered Daytona 10 lap race and it is a rocket, love it BUT -
The fuel consumption makes it near on impossible to win, I can get 4 laps out of it on 6 lean. So I have to pit twice.

It's crazy to read this because I had the exact same experience. I tried a Brands Hatch race with my new Huayra, acquired by special invitation, and it was utterly horrible. I was sickened by my purchase and chalked it up to a lesson learned (which I didn't actually learn because I ended out buying the McLaren P1 with the same results!).

However, I ended up trying the Huayra at the new Tokyo Expressway race that was added, tuned down to 600 PP by removing all my upgrades and adding ballast, etc. What I discovered is that it is so incredibly torquey that I could run it at fuel map 6 and in 6th gear for most of the race and only have to pit once. I'd say that your best bet is to find ways to utilize that incredible torque to get you going and let momentum keep you going. It's going to depend on the track, for sure, but now I'm re-encouraged to try it out in different situations like this.

 

[Daxus]

Applying Power x Energy x Work laws from Physics 101 to internal combustion engines isn't really a good idea. Sure, there isn't anything wrong with them except they are established to perfect efficiency systems. So, when we are talking about internal combustion engines, efficiencies can go from mid 30s% to 50%, depending on many factors, like the fuel type (gasoline or diesel), induction system (naturally aspired, turbocharged, supercharged), fuel/air injection technology, valve train technology, thermodynamical proprieties of the materials used, the bore x stroke ratio, the architecture (a V6 or a inline 6 with the same bore x stroke dimensions work different due several factors), so really no point on using this laws.

For some of those reasons, a smaller, more modern V8 in a car build for more conventional tracks is more efficient on conventional tracks than a V8 build with Le Mans in mind (efficiency on longer periods at higher gear, almost top rpm), most of FIA-GT races it was used a 6.0 V12.

I fail to see in your post why applying the laws of physics would be a bad idea or should be ignored. In stead everything you say would need to be included in the fuel consumption calculations. I am pretty much convinced the person does not have a clue what he is asking and I didn't see why I would bore him with extra things to consider.

Thank you for elaborating!