Game punishing fair players...

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FIA race at LaSarthe...
Going inside before Mulsaine corner...
Guy behind me hits me and I end in sand...
He get's 10sec penalty, can serve it right away for 3.5seconds since he already slowed down...
I ended fighting with car in sand, although game sees as I did nothing wrong, I am penalised by around 20sec or so... This is time needed to get out of sand and get up to speed...

Twice this happen to me today, so... Really?!?!

These kind of things need to be harder penalised...
 
This will be a known fact until we finally have "racing stewards and moderators" for each race... until then i simply race on... not really competing, because even if its marketed like that, sport mode FIA racing is a gimmicky racing series. Dont sweat it, just play to improve your own skills and laptimes.

Btw could be really easy to implement. If no one wants to be a moderator/spectator to sport mode room, the race doesnt start. Simple.

I would love to be a steward for the days when i just dont feel like pulling out my wheel but still need my racing "sim" fix
 
FIA race at LaSarthe...
Going inside before Mulsaine corner...
Guy behind me hits me and I end in sand...
He get's 10sec penalty, can serve it right away for 3.5seconds since he already slowed down...
I ended fighting with car in sand, although game sees as I did nothing wrong, I am penalised by around 20sec or so... This is time needed to get out of sand and get up to speed...

Twice this happen to me today, so... Really?!?!

These kind of things need to be harder penalised...
You wanna design and write the code that can work all that out? You're asking too much of an algorithm.
 
You wanna design and write the code that can work all that out? You're asking too much of an algorithm.
I would say he's not asking enough of that algorithm... :P ask google if they can miss a few algorithm specialists and let them work it out.

Though I don't think PD will ever perfect it to 100% I do think it will improve over time. And I think it's different with every track, so that might be what's making it so hard.
 
@DakotaXIII in fact yes, it is not easy but man, after 1 year of this game, and donno how many years of previous games that had MP, PD should up until now have statistics of ideal lanes and braking points on their tracks. It is a no brainier if you ask me. And besides Penalty system is still far off... if they don't know how to, with their resources they should get people that actually do that...
 
In iRacing, they have a reporting feature, quite good and effective against retaliation and vulgar words, but not for Race Incident.

I think PD should have the features too especially to deal with retaliation.
 
@rex1825 I pretty much don't play Sport mode, i mostly stick to single-player/open Lobbies, but there was that one situation that made me very angry...

So, GT League, Professional, Ferrari-only event on Monza. I am driving the N600 458, the AI guy at first place is driving a 330 P4. I overtook him, he started to catch me up on straight sections, but he was completely missing the braking points and he went most of the turns offroad, but because his car was faster than mine (and because of the stupid OP rubberband) he always catched up on straights.

Last lap, first chicane after the start-finish straight, i go wider, he goes narrow, completely missed the braking point and overshoots the corner, pretty much cutting the first chicane completely.

Here comes the BS part: instead of respawning the AI car before the chicane because he cut the track limits (as it normally does with you/human opponents in Lobby races), the game respawned the car AFTER the first chicane! So by the time i went around the first chicane cleanly, he already had a 4 second gap, ruining the whole race for me :mad:

Still have no idea why it respawned the AI car like that
 
FIA race at LaSarthe...
Going inside before Mulsaine corner...
Guy behind me hits me and I end in sand...
He get's 10sec penalty, can serve it right away for 3.5seconds since he already slowed down...
I ended fighting with car in sand, although game sees as I did nothing wrong, I am penalised by around 20sec or so... This is time needed to get out of sand and get up to speed...

Twice this happen to me today, so... Really?!?!

These kind of things need to be harder penalised...
Yup if the game realizes that he punted you off, he should be made to give back the position and restricted from overtaking you until the next lap.
 
You wanna design and write the code that can work all that out? You're asking too much of an algorithm.
Sure...
But lets start with some other housecleaning...
Daily/Weekly race D, penalties = real.
In race D...
Penalties no longer able to be scrubbed on track.
Penalties served in pits or carried to the end or race.
Introduction of black flag.

So, the algorithm... for race D... and the OP situation...

Car A hits car B...
If car B hits car X, and/or wall, and/or goes off track...
Then car A gets 10second penalty and black flag.
Black flagged cars cannot receive car service when serving penalty in pit.
and...
Car A hits car B...
If car B has no other collisions and stays on track... and/or gains speed from resultant collision, and/or alters previous trajectory, and/or looses position...
Then car A gets 10second penalty to be served in pit or carried to end of race.
and finally...
Car A hits car B...
If car B is unaffected... (aka, love touch) and no positions are changed...
Then race resumes.

I don't know, I'm not a programmer, but that right there looks pretty easy and would do a world of good at helping eliminate sloppy driving "mistakes".
I say make a race D, because, it's been said here PD is afraid it they make Sport Mode to hard/real they will loose players (and we all witnessed the crying when P1.13 was released), so, don't force everyone to actually race, make it a choice in race D.
And, PD needs to realize they have already lost players due to the broken/unfair penalty system and the ability to game it...
I'm one of them.
 
...pass through pitstop lane, pitstop wait penalty... what's with this? It is a part of FIA as far as I know lol
 
@DakotaXIII in fact yes, it is not easy but man, after 1 year of this game, and donno how many years of previous games that had MP, PD should up until now have statistics of ideal lanes and braking points on their tracks. It is a no brainier if you ask me. And besides Penalty system is still far off... if they don't know how to, with their resources they should get people that actually do that...

Crashes typically happen when you have to share the space with other cars and can’t use the ideal lines or the ideal braking points. So such statistics wouldn’t be of much help.
 
@rex1825 I pretty much don't play Sport mode, i mostly stick to single-player/open Lobbies, but there was that one situation that made me very angry...

So, GT League, Professional, Ferrari-only event on Monza. I am driving the N600 458, the AI guy at first place is driving a 330 P4. I overtook him, he started to catch me up on straight sections, but he was completely missing the braking points and he went most of the turns offroad, but because his car was faster than mine (and because of the stupid OP rubberband) he always catched up on straights.

Last lap, first chicane after the start-finish straight, i go wider, he goes narrow, completely missed the braking point and overshoots the corner, pretty much cutting the first chicane completely.

Here comes the BS part: instead of respawning the AI car before the chicane because he cut the track limits (as it normally does with you/human opponents in Lobby races), the game respawned the car AFTER the first chicane! So by the time i went around the first chicane cleanly, he already had a 4 second gap, ruining the whole race for me :mad:

Still have no idea why it respawned the AI car like that

It's like that in sport mode as well....


Sure...
But lets start with some other housecleaning...
Daily/Weekly race D, penalties = real.
In race D...
Penalties no longer able to be scrubbed on track.
Penalties served in pits or carried to the end or race.
Introduction of black flag.

So, the algorithm... for race D... and the OP situation...

Car A hits car B...
If car B hits car X, and/or wall, and/or goes off track...
Then car A gets 10second penalty and black flag.
Black flagged cars cannot receive car service when serving penalty in pit.
and...
Car A hits car B...
If car B has no other collisions and stays on track... and/or gains speed from resultant collision, and/or alters previous trajectory, and/or looses position...
Then car A gets 10second penalty to be served in pit or carried to end of race.
and finally...
Car A hits car B...
If car B is unaffected... (aka, love touch) and no positions are changed...
Then race resumes.

I don't know, I'm not a programmer, but that right there looks pretty easy and would do a world of good at helping eliminate sloppy driving "mistakes".
I say make a race D, because, it's been said here PD is afraid it they make Sport Mode to hard/real they will loose players (and we all witnessed the crying when P1.13 was released), so, don't force everyone to actually race, make it a choice in race D.

And, PD needs to realize they have already lost players due to the broken/unfair penalty system and the ability to game it...
I'm one of them.

The problem is that the game doesn't know who hits who. To stay with Monza, when a dive bomb clips you on the inside just before T1 then takes out the car in front of you, you get the penalty! The game thinks you hit him first, then that car ran into someone else. I have had that happen multiple times before. Perhaps that is why they changed it to, last car that makes contact gets the penalty. Which can be abused by knocking a car into another one. It's not that simple, unfortunately the penalty algorithm is :(

For anything to work the algorithm first needs to figure out who hits who. After 10 months it still can not do that. Racing rules need to be implemented, as well as proper brake zones per car and consistent track limits. It can't even get penalty serving right, on many spots cars with penalties ghost flicker as the game thinks they're slowing down while actually going at normal speed for that spot.

As for the OP's situation, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out how much time the car that went off road lost. Simplest is to compare the sector times of both cars and add the difference to the instigator. They were level at point of collision so the difference when both cars are back up to speed is how much the aggressor has gained. (x3 since you can get rid of penalties much faster) If the aggressor waits for the victim to get back on track / gives the position back, then that difference is negative and no penalty needs to be issued. (Still SR Down of course for hitting another car)
 
The problem is that the game doesn't know who hits who. To stay with Monza, when a dive bomb clips you on the inside just before T1 then takes out the car in front of you, you get the penalty! The game thinks you hit him first, then that car ran into someone else. I have had that happen multiple times before.
Good god...
How hard is it for the game to not know who is traveling faster/overtaking...
I guess that would not stop gamers from cutting-in/swerving/brake-checking and forcing the penalty...
Actually... wasn't that a "thing" not that long ago?
I don't want to believe it's hopeless, but, until there are like minded folks actually trying to race, I'm starting to believe this whole deal is broke.
Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and move to iRacing...
I'm not saying that iRacing penalties are better, but, from the folks I've talked to IRL, the players are of a more mature/fair mindset.
I know there are great/fair folks on GT Sport too... but you can never count on racing with them, it's always a "lottery".
Or, maybe start looking into clean/kick lobbies... I've yet to do that either.
 
Crashes typically happen when you have to share the space with other cars and can’t use the ideal lines or the ideal braking points. So such statistics wouldn’t be of much help.

I said that for reference, lol, of course you cannot use ideal lane when racing, especially when there is bunch of cars around you, there is always margin of distance in some percentage and speed. All this is not the problem at all...
 
I would say he's not asking enough of that algorithm... :P ask google if they can miss a few algorithm specialists and let them work it out.

Though I don't think PD will ever perfect it to 100% I do think it will improve over time. And I think it's different with every track, so that might be what's making it so hard.
yeah exactly, its not asking enough! If something doesn't work well, don't put it in the flipping game. Top 24 is a prime example of crap penalties. These guys are on the limit racing fair, but still end with massive penalties for a single tyre too wide or a simple wall tap. It's ridiculous
 
I said that for reference, lol, of course you cannot use ideal lane when racing, especially when there is bunch of cars around you, there is always margin of distance in some percentage and speed. All this is not the problem at all...

Then what use will you have of the reference data? Can you give an example?
 
Good god...
How hard is it for the game to not know who is traveling faster/overtaking...
I guess that would not stop gamers from cutting-in/swerving/brake-checking and forcing the penalty...
Actually... wasn't that a "thing" not that long ago?
I don't want to believe it's hopeless, but, until there are like minded folks actually trying to race, I'm starting to believe this whole deal is broke.
Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and move to iRacing...
I'm not saying that iRacing penalties are better, but, from the folks I've talked to IRL, the players are of a more mature/fair mindset.
I know there are great/fair folks on GT Sport too... but you can never count on racing with them, it's always a "lottery".
Or, maybe start looking into clean/kick lobbies... I've yet to do that either.

It was very easy to give people penalties under shared corner rights. It still is.

Before it tried to use the position where to cars collide to decide who got the higher penalty. That's too simple a way to look at it as the car that brakes last will be slightly ahead and will hit the other car with their back wheel when they don't leave room. So now it simply looks at who goes off road, which doesn't work either. Same with getting hit from behind.

Racing is a bit better later at night, however the 'rewards' for exploiting the game are simply too great currently. All you risk is getting easier races when you get caught. Driving dirty is a win win situation. That needs to be addressed.

Ideas:
- No penalty serving in the race, pit drive through or added at the end.
- After a red rating, add a penalty time to your qualifying time for the next race. (If you have no quali time, start further back instead)
- Make it harder to get back to SR.S, either a time delay or make it harder to gain SR after a loss.

Of course as long as the game doesn't understand racing rules fair players will be punished by that as well. On some tracks the penalty for avoiding an out of control car or brake check is worse than hitting them... And so far dirty players often manage to drag fair players down with them. My racing style is more based on avoidance currently than actually racing. Has been for a while.
 
So, the algorithm... for race D... and the OP situation...

Car A hits car B...
If car B hits car X, and/or wall, and/or goes off track...
Then car A gets 10second penalty and black flag.
Black flagged cars cannot receive car service when serving penalty in pit.
and...
Car A hits car B...
If car B has no other collisions and stays on track... and/or gains speed from resultant collision, and/or alters previous trajectory, and/or looses position...
Then car A gets 10second penalty to be served in pit or carried to end of race.
and finally...
Car A hits car B...
If car B is unaffected... (aka, love touch) and no positions are changed...
Then race resumes.

You just did the easy bit, the hard bit is the doing the code to reliably detect those situations.
 
You just did the easy bit, the hard bit is the doing the code to reliably detect those situations.
Well, I'm sure it painfully obvious I'm no code writer... having said that, I am extremely good at my profession, so, if I did write code...
See where I'm going?
Guess that is a jackolantern response...
As I noted above, I guess it's not entirely the games fault, it is the player base that makes it what it is, but, at the same time, the game is doing nothing, well... very little, to alter the players behavior.
Until the penalties "ruin" an aggressive/irresponsible racers race, I don't see things changing.
As @Sven Jurgens said "Driving dirty is a win win situation"... admittedly I've not raced in some time, but I take Sven's word for it (I find him to be very credible)... I also watch streams and replays, and, even at Dr.S/A+ Sr.S many of the "mistakes" are actually very poor judgement/extremely high risk gone wrong... but when there is little "penalty" to the inevitable outcome of such driving, it's bound to continue.

edit to add;
my response is my opinion and for discussion, it is absolutely not meant to offend/aggravate in any way.
 
At this point, my only complaint with the Penalty system is the DR Reset mechanic. I understand that no system could be perfect, but it's completely unreasonable that A/A+ drivers can lose all of their DR progress from 2 bad races. Especially since PD matches us with C and D drivers who drive like heat seeking missiles.

I wish they would do away with DR Resets and figure out another way to punish people for dropping 2 ranks. Until they do, I'm just forced to retire from Sport Mode because it's just not worth it. I can only play a few hours on the weekends so if I lost my A+ it would take me another year to get it back.
 
Last night was just hilarious. Race B, started 3rd. Lap 1. I'm 3rd, and 2nd and I are going side by side into the T1 braking zone. I'm on the inside and P2 is on the outside. There's just about a car's width between us and we haven't begun to turn in yet when p4 (probably missed his braking point) scraped off the right side of P2 and mildly bumped me on the left and went straight off into the sand. Boom orange SR down and 5 sec penalty for me. I couldn't help but laugh at the ridiculousness of the whole thing. Just to be clear, no one was dirty, just one of those moments. Anyway ended up 2nd by the end anyway and a grey SR. No loss.
 
At this point, my only complaint with the Penalty system is the DR Reset mechanic. I understand that no system could be perfect, but it's completely unreasonable that A/A+ drivers can lose all of their DR progress from 2 bad races. Especially since PD matches us with C and D drivers who drive like heat seeking missiles.

I wish they would do away with DR Resets and figure out another way to punish people for dropping 2 ranks. Until they do, I'm just forced to retire from Sport Mode because it's just not worth it. I can only play a few hours on the weekends so if I lost my A+ it would take me another year to get it back.

i've been dropped from A+ to B two times and i recovered each time within a day or two , if you have a particular class/track combo you are really good at its more than possible
 
i've been dropped from A+ to B two times and i recovered each time within a day or two , if you have a particular class/track combo you are really good at its more than possible

it took one race but i just got sent back to A/B , again people trying to pass where there's no space , they go off track but i always get the 5 sec
 
At this point, my only complaint with the Penalty system is the DR Reset mechanic. I understand that no system could be perfect, but it's completely unreasonable that A/A+ drivers can lose all of their DR progress from 2 bad races. Especially since PD matches us with C and D drivers who drive like heat seeking missiles.

I wish they would do away with DR Resets and figure out another way to punish people for dropping 2 ranks. Until they do, I'm just forced to retire from Sport Mode because it's just not worth it. I can only play a few hours on the weekends so if I lost my A+ it would take me another year to get it back.

This highlights the essential difference to how a fair competitive player gets punished by the SR system, while a "win at all cost" aggressive driver gets rewarded by lowering SR. An SR drop below 90 already matches you with far slower players, meaning a lot higher risk to losing DR, or a much bigger chance at winning a race. A DR reset doesn't phase the "win at all cost" driver at all, plenty seek it out and reset their DR weekly. The aggressive driver that only cares about winning is only helped by dirty / risky moves. The fair competitive players getting dragged down with them suffer as they want to race the best and are not looking for easy wins.

It's all upside down. The penalty system often gets it wrong, while the punishment is actually a bonus for those that want to win at all cost.

First of all, get rid of the DR resets, it only punishes the wrong people.
Second, look at trends instead of a capped SR value. 10 clean races, then 2 bad ones should not drop you to SR.B 10 bad races then 2 clean ones should not advance you to SR.S. Make it harder to earn SR if your average number of contacts per race is high. Make it harder to lose SR if your average number of contacts per race is very low. Sample size of the last 10 races to determine an average should dampen out the big gains and losses quite a bit. Perhaps tie the average to SR level so you can't drop to SR.B, build up your average with easy poles and running up front while getting back to SR.S and then have some leniency to drive recklessly there. If you always behave bad in SR.S, you go right back out the door, which is how it should be.
 
The next FIA season will be with heavy damage ON.

I'm looking forward to it! Even I got maybe ruined, at least my punisher will not get away also!

The last races were really frustrating for me since patch 1.23 where the penalties got easied up.

I was doing well with the no contact philosophy before because I give always much effort into qualifying and start therefore in well spots. But the overall raised agression since patch 1.23 starts me to get away from sports mode sadly.

I'm honestly thinking about to do GT League instead :)
 
I recently watched the top drivers race at Mt. Panorama. The racing was clean and respectful. The penalty system works.

But it only works when racers know others are watching, when racers value their reputation and genuinely fear the repercussions.

I don't have a solution. It's just an observation. But I think the problem isn't the system, the problem is (sadly) human nature.
 
OK, here are few simple examples, don't mind the graphics.

So first of, as said before, penalties serving needs to go either to pitlane, or it should be added to the time at the end of race. In case they leave it as it is, there should be algorithm that can with ease recognize if a car is on fast lane or not, and if it is on fast lane, penalties shouldn't drop for short races.
For longer races pitlane should be used for 10/20sec penalties with 20sec ones waiting 10sec in pit alone as a stop, without possibility to change tires, repair or refuel. And those should be mandatory to serve next lap ASAP, or more comes.

Now to assigning penalties.

If one brakes anywhere on track where no brake zone is, for example brake checking as it is called, he/she should get instant penalty.

For overtaking on straights like on pic below, there should be algorithm that takes speeds in consideration, and if there is difference in, for example 5% then there should be algorithm that can recognize fair play.
overtake.JPG

Red car keeps it's movement (1 & 2), blue one can either stay behind (1) or move to the right (2 & 3) in order to overtake. If blue stay behind, and bumps red, there shouldn't be any penalties IF they are out of red zones (later explained).
If red one makes move for defending to the right, if there is no space to move and red hits blue, even if red is in front, red should get penalty.
If there is space to move and red is in position (3), blue has now choice to either follow red (2) or move back to left (3) and proceed overtaking.
If red in this situation moves back to the right, no matter if it hits blue or not, red should get penalty for obstructing blues racing.

Even if racing parallel on straights or not, if in any case one of the cars try to push other out of the track, it should get penalty ASAP. Cars need to leave always car width for each other.

Next example is entering corner in parallel
parallel.JPG

This is basically self explanatory, black lane is ideal/racing lane.
Now, there are three situations that can occur here.
First one is if both, red and blue go parallel in corner, there should be script that simple monitors two cars if they leave car width for each other. As said, this is only valid if both cars go all way parallel. Simple bumps should be tolerated here as long as width is there.
Second one is if blue outbrakes red one, and simple he uses his ideal lane to proceed through corner, this way red is behind.
Third one is if blue brakes early enough so red can still be in front and keeps his ideal lane to proceed through corner.
And of course in first of the situations, if any of the cars is in front without obstructing other one, they should simply proceed with their racing lanes.
In any of the situations if one car pushes other out of track, penalty is assigned to the one that did it.

Third thing I'll discuss is before, mid and after corner hitting
cornering.JPG

As seen in picture there are three zones in this S chicane.
Red one is braking zone, determined for each car class and taken in account avg DR of group for example.
Blue is coast zone, this zone may not be presented in all of situations, because some of the turns are simple brake, accel ones.
Green is acceleration zone, short part of the track after turns determined for each car class
Three simple scenarios:
- In red zone, if red hits blue, he'll get penalty according to speed difference and by how much is blue affected.
- In blue zone, bumps are tolerated, if blue is too slow, penalty for blue, if red is too fast, penalty for red. There should be tolerance in speeds and speed difference here.
- In green zone, if blue is slow, it'll get penalty even if hit by red from behind (if DR are same for both cars). Slower the blue is, more penalty he'll get. DR should here have a lot of influence. For example if DR of blue is lower then DR from red, red could potentially get penalty for hitting.
Every corner has these zones and are pretty obvious for each car class.

In a case where one car makes mistake by pushing hitting or anything other to the other and getting advantage over other car, penalty is distributed to the car if that car doesn't give position to the affected car in next 15 or so seconds.

If a car in front looses control, the car from behind shouldn't get penalty if it is too close to the car that lost control. There are like tons of assists in this game, and game alone can recognize if car is loosing traction etc. Also yaw and gyro are pretty easy to implement for simple use of monitoring so I really don't see a reason this should be hard. This is also the only reason why should one brake out of red zones and not get penalized if hit from behind (case of non-brake checking).

White lines on both side of driving asphalt should be track limits with exclusion of kerbs (in case of pics above, green/white/red ones only) wich are considered asphalt/driving part of track. Anything else should be considered to be penalized. Only situations where it shouldn't be case is on straights where no red/green zones are. There should be also an option for how many tires are allowed out of the track, if 0 is selected, white lines and kerbs are limits, if 3 is selected, one wheel needs to be all the time in side of white lines and kerbs.

And at the end of the day, there should be also calculated, or better said added speed differences between cars in regard of DR rating, together with tolerance to bumps and hits.

And SR rating, well, higher SR is, harder you should be penalized, but also, there should be a bit higher tolerance to hits. SR should reflect how clean you are and not to be abused, so even if two A+ SR drivers hit each other with no consequences, there shouldn't be any penalties or SR drops. Where if lower SR driver hits higher one, there should be penalties on side of lower one.

All this is not so hard to implement, and one cannot tell me this is impossible. Every track has these zones predefined, every player knows them, after all, we all brake approx in similar spots, we all have approx similar fast lanes. There are differences but it is marginal, especially if we are in same DR ranking.

These things should be fixed ASAP.
 
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