GM and the Future of the V8: The Last Hurrah For the LS-series

[YSSMAN]

For a while we have been talking about different engines in both the Corvette "Blue Devil" thread and the "Zeta News" thread, but now things have gotten really confusing. Thusly, I have started this thread about the engine news in general. But here is another wrench thrown in the V8 future at GM:

In recent months, there has been a great deal of speculation that, assuming GM decides to produce the Chevrolet Camaro, a high-performance model will be offered with a Corvette motor. In fact, GM's Bob Lutz has even acknowledged the possibility of shoehorning the Z06's LS7 engine into the Camaro. But according to the August issue of GM High-Tech Performance, the automaker could go a step further. The magazine says GM is contemplating putting the supercharged LS9 engine in a range-topping Camaro SS. GM is also said to have another 6.2-liter LS derivative in the works for its full size truck lineup. (Recently, we brought you spy shots of what could be the new LS truck engine). Lastly, the magazine reports GM is in the initial stages of prototyping a new "huge" LS-style engine with 8.3 liters of displacement and 900 horsepower. It's unclear if that engine is the LS9, or something entirely different. The source who worked on the engine said, "I don't get parts unless they're actually going to do something with them." (Recently, we noted GM registered the name "LSX" for a vehicle engine).

Even as a GM guy, I'm a bit confused by what is going on. So please allow me to think this through in writing, then ya'all can talk about what you think.

1) A supercharged V8 seems irrational in both the Corvette and the Camaro, so I'm unclear as to how this engine is going to fit into the lineup. Granted, I would rather have the supercharger on the Camaro as opposed to the Corvette, but I would rather have a naturally aspirated V8 in most circumstances.

But, at the moment, I cannot fathom GM doing a Camaro without the 505 BHP version of the LS7. It would make the most sense as a "ZL1" model Camaro, but maybe thats just me.

2) Whats with the extra version of the 6.2L V8? They allready have a 380-403 BHP version of the L92 V8, what more could be needed? A new version might be a new engine for the Zeta/VE sedans, but I would say it would be easier to just work with the LS2, would it not? I'm confused here, but if they can make it fuel efficent with tons of power, I guess I cannot really be all that upset.

3) The new LS-style of engine that is punched out to 8.3L can only go into two things. One, the new line of GMT900 trucks that need to replace the older 8.1L Vortec-series V8. The only other option is to power the full-size Cadillac that we have been hearing about for what seems like the last decade. As Motor Trend has put it, the "ULS" would attempt to knock gloves with the likes of the S600 and 760i, but with 900 BHP on tap, that is getting into uncharted territory for GM. They couldn't be building a Bugatti-killer, could they?

---

What do you make of this interesting news?

 

[IMADreamer]

That's pretty interesting. I am having a pretty hard time thinking the LS9 would debut in the camaro. I would much rather see a LS7 in the SS model. It's almost not fair to the Corvette guys to put the LS9 in there. I also think a 500hp version of the Camaro may cut into base Corvette sales. As for using FI on the engines I am definately against that. That's not nor has ever been what the Camaro and Corvette have been about. I wish they would leave that to the aftermarket.

As for 900hp, why stop there? It's such an odd number. If they are going to venture into the land of Bugatti just figure out how to get 1000+ then go ultra lightweight and go Bugatti hunting. Part of me wants to see GM do it. I know they can. The new Z06 is a amazing, but at the same time is that where they want to go with the Corvette? Do they really want to move it into the hyper car class? Sure there would be the base model and Z06 but it would seem odd talking about the Corvette in the same camparo as the Veyron.

I don't know what's going on inside GM and I think it's interesting but part of me thinks GM has backed themselves into a corner with the Vette and upcoming Camaro. The base Vette is in the same hp range as the top end Camaro should be so that's a problem. Granted the Vette is a sports car and the Camaro is a pony car but there will be some interference. Ok I have no clue, I am just bouncing some ideas off you guys. I look forward to seeing what happens next with all this.

 

[YSSMAN]

I really don't see a huge problem with the Corvette and Camaro carrying the same BHP numbers, as it wouldn't be the first time that it has happened before. Back in the '60s, the Camaro and Corvette shared all of their engines and transmissions, and the biggest difference between the two in performance occoured because of the weight differences, much as it will again today.

At about 3200 lbs on the standard Corvette, it theoretically should make it about 400 lbs less than the Camaro, and that should be enough to seperate the performance of the two cars by atleast a few tenths of a second when speaking about the same engine (say 400 BHP LS2 in the SS versus Z51), but making the Camaro slightly faster with the 505 BHP LS7 (ZL1 versus Z51).

...Nothing is certain here, so its a matter of guessing. That 8.3L [is]has to[/i] be a Cadillac unit, as I can't see it being worth anything in a Chevrolet. I'd say stick it in a full-size sedan or coupe ala Bentley Continental GT/Flying Spur.

 

[Tornado]

I've thought about it a little while, and I'm now positive that they won't put a forced induction engine into the "Z06+," as it just doesn't make sense to me as to why they would do it. Yeah, the torque is nice, but all the other compromises they would have to make is rediculous.
In addition, I really doubt that the 8.3L engine is a truck-type engine. 900 BHP in a truck is silly (of course, 900 BHP in a car is only slightly less so, but still), and the 454 sales are really still quite popular with people that don't want the Duramax (they are quite common in govt. and police vehicles). The 8.3 may just be Chevrolet's way of saying F-off to Dodge and the Daimondback. Imagine if they put that engine in the Corvette instead of the small block (which, it must be said, is a very real possibility, moreso than forced induction anyways).

 

[YSSMAN]

It seems like a reasonable possibility I suppose, another good way to give the middle-finger to the European establishment when it comes to supercars. But I'd be worried about the Y-Body and having 900 BHP. I've seen 850 BHP tuner models of the Corvette (they were C5s), and there was no way they could get the power down in a reasonable way.

That engine would call for AWD no doubt about it, and I really can only see it happening in a Cadillac.

 

[Tornado]

Could they not use some sort of defeatable traction control device? Remember, if it was to have nearly double the Z06's power, it is a good chnce it would have nearly double the price to compensate, which leaves more than enough room for electronic aids. I would be like an American Speed 12. And imagine if they raced it.
Quite honestly, I can't see an AWD Caddy. Nor can I see a Caddy that would cost more than 150k. Think about it, they tried over 100k with the XLR-v, and failed (no one seems to think the car justifies the price, and I happen to agree with them with the price knocking on the SL55 AMG's door). So, if it's not for the Corvette, what could it possibly be? A racing engine for like, Le Mans or something?

 

[YSSMAN]

My best guess is a Super-Cadillac sedan with extremely limited production numbers that could be on-par with the S600 and Continental Flying Spur. My guess would baisically be a production version of the Sixteen concept, with AWD, and 200 fewer BHP.

Team Corvette could do it, and I really don't have any idea. Build the whole car out of carbon fiber, stick some larger meats under the back end, use a heavy-duty T-56 and call it a day. I'd think of it as an American CCR or CCX, something with an obtaininble 240 MPH top-speed, but production numbers would be outrageously low.

I really cannot honestly say for sure what GM is considering with an 800 BHP V8. They haven't made anything like that for decades, as this would baisically be an enlarged version of the 502ci (actually a 506). The only lineup I can see using it is Cadillac, with AFM and AWD. A Corvette is the only other choise, but they are over-shooting the performance of the chassis by atleast 100 BHP.

 

[harrytuttle]

My best guess is a Super-Cadillac sedan with extremely limited production numbers that could be on-par with the S600 and Continental Flying Spur. My guess would baisically be a production version of the Sixteen concept, with AWD, and 200 fewer BHP.

A Cadillac makes much more sense. In a strange, US muscle-car influenced way, it could really help bolster Cadillac's desire to enter the luxury supercar league (SLR McLaren, Carrera GT, maybe Bugatti).

They'd have to do it right, though. The XLR hasn't been received well against either regulars or newcomers (SL500, 650Ci). It's a great American car, no doubt, and a fantastic Cadillac, but there's still some way to go.

I'm hoping for a return of the Cien. It's the most beautiful US car (concept) in 40 years. Perhaps a big-block V8 will give them better packaging options, as opposed the the V12 in the concept? Maybe they're betting on competing with the Saleen TT (in which case, maybe a new Chevy is in the works after all), but that's reaching a bit.

Still, it could just be a fun, side project like Ford's V10 Mustang. Nothing may ever come of it. There's been countless concepts & small projects from all companies that have come to nothing, and a lot of them were probably more interesting than a 900HP Corvette.

But no, it's definitely not going in the Escalade. That's too tacky, even for GM.

 

[YSSMAN]

There was a V12-powered Escalade-V prototype a few years back, and I found that to be quite funny...

The engine could power the DTS replacement after Cadillac finially realises that nobody cares about the damn thing...

 

[Poverty]

boy I would love to see a 800-900hp v8 really bringing it to the germans. I love healthy competition, us customers will be the benificiararies of it 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

The most powerful engine that isn't wearing a Bugatti badge is what, the TT 6.0L V12 from the S65? Thats still what, almost 300 BHP shy of this rumored engine?

 

[Tornado]

It is also not near maximum tune, either; and is restricted rather heavily to preserve the tranny. However, surely you don't assume for Caddilac to build an S-class fighter? That would be suicide, even more so than the XLR-v vs. the SL55 AMG.

 

[YSSMAN]

They have been talking about building an S-Class fighter for a while, and the best guess is something like the Sixteen concept with a V8.

 

[GT4_Rule]

If GM does make the 900hp V8 then I shall congratulate them on the bold move. Competition is good, those German makers have had enough time degrading their build quality due to no competition.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[niky]

I still can't figure what the engine would be good for.

A 900bhp Caddy... shades of the Sixteen? Do a big super-coupe like that, and you could possibly rack up a few dozen in sales.

Or you could make a Viper-ish 900 pony Camaro... and in convertible form, too. How's that for a halo car? Would make more sense than a 900 horse Corvette.

Mmhmm... 900 hp. 8.3 liters. Hello gas station, goodbye house.

 

[YSSMAN]

The engine would have to take every major fuel-saving feature in the GM lineup to actually have a shade of a chance in production.

Heres an idea:

Four-Seat sedan based on the Sixteen concept. Uses the 8.3L V8 in combination with a Hybrid AWD system. Power would then be boosted north of 1000BHP when combined with the electric motor, of which is part of a two-mode system. Being that the car is a hybrid and takes full use of the cylinder-deactivation system, the car could have an easily obtainable 30 MPG on the highway, and right around 20 in the city.

...How would that shake things up in Stuttgart oder Munchen?

 

[niky]

Not much. Cadillac can build great sports sedans... well, not great, but competent... seeing as how they can always just pull another Corvette out of their behinds and stick a Caddy body on it... but Caddy just can't match the build quality of the Germans (dubious as that now is, with the overwhelming amount of electronics in Germans, and the tendency of these over-technological wonders to exhibit all the stability of Windows 95... ).

But if Caddy can just build it like a bank vault... it would worry the Germans. And yes, it ought to be as long as the 16 concept... gives them room for radiators and the hybrid drive... plus it'd look cool as hell.

 

[Tornado]

Well, truthfully? Not a damned thing. The S class has been THE car for rich people, politicians, corrupt buisness mongers, all three, etc. since it's inception. I'm not saying that this Cadillac wouldn't sell wouldn't sell, but I'd be surprised if it took 5 S-class sales. Nothing can compete with the S-class at what it does best, and it is more of a status symbol than probably any other car on the market; and owning an S-class (any generation) equals rich. Even if Cadillac completely hits the "16" out of the park, it will not be able to compete with the S-class.
It would probably scare the hell out of BMW, though.

 

[harrytuttle]

They have been talking about building an S-Class fighter for a while, and the best guess is something like the Sixteen concept with a V8.

The only problem with this is that with the S-class, it's not about the power but the luxury: build quality, amenities, ride, image. Cadillac's been making great strides along that line for the last several years, but dropping this engine into their current lineup, or even a new-platform Sixteen, will not do it for them. In fact, I can't remember the last time "the engine" was mentioned when running up a list of Cadillac complaints. It's the entire rest of the car that people are shying away from when compared to the S-Class.

If this engine goes into a Cadillac, it would have to be a SLR McLaren competitor. Or the Cien. Oh, how I love the Cien....

Put wings on that thing and it'll drop smart bombs on the nearest terrorist bunker.

 

[YSSMAN]

Meh, we will see what happens. I think if GM gets extremely serious with Cadillac (as it looks that way with the CTS), they could compete against the S-Class in a serious manner. Of course, it is still the standard of the entire luxury industry, but the thought of a Sixteen type car in production should have BMW and Audi worried.

 

[Poverty]

well audi and BMW are both working on theyre top of the line replacements, so this will be very interesting indeed. I dont know if audi will gun for the S-class though, as they never did with the old A8.

 

[YSSMAN]

I suppose it is a "wait and see" type deal, but I'd be really dissapointed if Cadillac didn't have a super-sedan in the works as we have been hearing about it since the end of the 20th century.

 

[GT4_Rule]

I don't think MB is all that great anymore. Unsatisfied customers, falling trim pieces, and lots of cheap parts used to maximize profit isn't exactly the recipe to stay at the top of the luxury car market.

 

[YSSMAN]

Mercedes still tops the market IMO when it comes to luxury cars, generally speaking the only major option being BMW in most markets. Granted, I probably be more likely to buy a Cadillac in most situations (damn my love for GM!), but Mercedes has a worldwide reputation to live up to.

 

[YSSMAN]

Update!

Many gasped when Ford switched its V8 engines in the F-150 to an overhead valve cam (duh!) design, and the debate about whether it produced a better engine is still ongoing. Nevertheless, despite GM's continued commitment to evolving the aged pushrod engine design, a document leaked on the web suggests that the General will change direction and introduce a new 6.2L dual overhead cam (DOHC) engine in 2011.

The document in question is an internal memorandum of understanding between General Motors, the UAW and Delphi. The result of negotiations that took place back in June 2007, the document details future product commitments to which GM had agreed, one of which is a new 'Gen V' 6.2L DOHC V8 engine for use in the C3XX platform. As we learned from the most recent negotiations between GM and the UAW, C3XX is the codename for what will replace the GMT 900 platform that underpins the automaker's current line of full-size trucks and SUVs.

In addition to a new overhead valve design, the Gen V engine will also feature variable valve timing like the Gen IV engine it replaces. Since the new engine will likely have four valves per cylinder because of its OHC design, expect the VVT to be even more beneficial. In addition, and perhaps most surprising, is that the Gen V will also feature GM's active fuel management (AFM) or cylinder deactivation technology. This technology alone will give it the leg up on other OHC engines like the Toyota Tundra's 5.7L DOHC V8.

Mike Levine from Pickuptruck.com who discovered this revealing document also reports that GM's current 5.3L V8 will be replaced by a new engine of unknown displacement. Unlike it's big brother, however, this next-gen engine will remain an overhead valve pushrod.

I can't say I'm completely happy all-around, but at least the other guys will quit their complaining about GM being "behind the times." The General has been discussing placing VVT on the OHV engines for some time now, but with an OHC setup, obviously its that much easier. My guess is that, for the most part, it will be a long while until all of the V8s switch over. The high-performance guys still like how simple the small-block is, and although they may be adding direct-injection here soon, its still the pretty simple design.

 

[Philly]

What will the benefits be in terms of numbers? More power? I read that there will be an increase in fuel economy.

 

[TopHat]

More fuel economy, more power, smoother, just all around better.

 

[Tornado]

More weight, more complexity, more cost.

 

[Philly]

Thanks guys. Sounds like it is a good engine for the top of the line trucks. The pushrod does sound like a good bet for a lower level truck.

 

[YSSMAN]

More weight, more complexity, more cost.

That was indeed my immediate thought, but knowing GM, they'll figure out a way to make it cheaper by producing a "S-load" of them all at once.