Going to a more rigid wheel mount...being careful what I wish for?

[Mr Sausage]

I've been very happy with my Clubsport v2.5 wheelbase and X-Box steering wheel which I have mounted on a Trakracer RS8 cockpit. When I first bought this cockpit two years ago I was very disappointed with the wheel mount though. Quite frankly it was really awful and relied on nothing more than two bolts to hold the mount in place and then two larger bolts which relied on nothing more than friction in the thrust plane to hold the wheel in place. It could barely hold my Clubsport wheel in place and infact it actually couldn't over time. I had been tightening it so hard to stop the wheel slipping it stripped the bolts on the mount. Really, that mount was good for nothing more than entry level plastic wheels.

Trakracer to their credit, however, sold an accessory upgrade mount that could be fitted to the RS8 and which was a monumental upgrade in terms of the quality of the mount itself. However it was still restricted to using the two bolt mounting holes on the RS8. And there is no practical way to simply add more holes to the RS8 - the mounting platform is far too small and was never designed with upgraded wheel mounts in mind. The only way around this would be to hire someone to make a steel adapter plate and then have a professional welder come in and attach it. Not sure it is worth going to all that trouble with the biggest problem being welding an adapter to the RS8.

Trakracer brought out the new generation TR8 cockpit quite soon after my actually got my RS8 and although I might have been annoyed by how soon they brought out a new cockpit, they do so on a regular basis and in any case, I did not really think too much of the early versions of the TR8 - but I think they have nailed it now with the Mach 3. It is really hard to see how you could ever significantly improve on a cockpit of this sort of design - all in one with integrated monitor stand that is reasonably priced. After all, it now has two arms leading up to the wheel mount and eight bolts on the wheel mount. Yes, it still flexes especially when you try to mount a high end DD wheel, but it still seems to be a very noticeable upgrade from what I have which is a single arm leading up to a two bolt wheel mount.

So I am of course now thinking I may upgrade to this cockpit from my RS8, with the main reason being the solid wheel mount. But this has me thinking. As per the title, should I be careful what I wish for?

At the moment, with my RS8 and upgraded wheel mount, there is still near zero flex in any plane (for practical purposes) except for the "up / down" one. And that is because of the two bolt mounting - perhaps if all four bolts could have been used on the upgraded mount, the "up / down" flex would also be negligible to non-existent.

But it has me thinking.....I wouldn't want to upgrade my road car suspension to rock hard bushes instead of the rubber ones any more than I would want hard engine mounts versus the existing ones. So there is actually a side of me that worries the force feedback (which I am obviously very used to now) might become overly harsh. Then again, it simply might become more defined and "crisp" but not irritating or harsh.

So does anyone have any specific experience where they were otherwise happy with their simulation setup and cockpit but decided to upgrade nothing at all except the cockpit structure itself and then found the result was almost "too much" (if you understand where I am coming from). Yes, you can re-adjust the feedback of course or tone it down, but if I were to upgrade, I would simply want more detail and clarity, not more harshness or anything that would make sim racing less enjoyable.

Again, using the road car analogy, I would not want to be driving my car very long with fancy suspension upgrades and hard engine mounts. I like it to have the "give" that it has (and yes, I realise this is a road car and not a race car but despite simming in a race car, I do value comfort and smoothness, but I want to be certain we understand you can still have smoothness but with a lot of detail and subtlety!).

PS: I am not interested in any other cockpit other than the TR8 since I require one with an integrated monitor stand and wish to continue using the TrakRacer style of seat (I can actually re-use my old seat).

 

[Daz555]

The better you have a wheelbase clamped down the better it feels. You lose so much detail when your rig or wheel stand has a load of "damping" built into it.

A wheel in a real car does not flex up and down so I can't see why I'd want my sim wheel to do that either. Because of my house setup currently I'm running on a wheel stand but can't wait to get back onto a solid permanent rig!

 

[Mr Sausage]

The better you have a wheelbase clamped down the better it feels. You lose so much detail when your rig or wheel stand has a load of "damping" built into it.

A wheel in a real car does not flex up and down so I can't see why I'd want my sim wheel to do that either. Because of my house setup currently I'm running on a wheel stand but can't wait to get back onto a solid permanent rig!

Well yes, I would want more detail or perhaps dynamic range is a better description (not that I have anything to complain about with the excellent Clubsport 2.5) but not at the expense of anything else. I just fear this upgrade might be analogous to those people who buy the top model of the range road car with the 18 or 19 inch wheels instead of the 17 inch wheels in the lesser version and then in return for better handling they whinge about the ride quality!

 

[Daz555]

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

[Jonesy_175]

I've been very happy with my Clubsport v2.5 wheelbase and X-Box steering wheel which I have mounted on a Trakracer RS8 cockpit. When I first bought this cockpit two years ago I was very disappointed with the wheel mount though. Quite frankly it was really awful and relied on nothing more than two bolts to hold the mount in place and then two larger bolts which relied on nothing more than friction in the thrust plane to hold the wheel in place. It could barely hold my Clubsport wheel in place and infact it actually couldn't over time. I had been tightening it so hard to stop the wheel slipping it stripped the bolts on the mount. Really, that mount was good for nothing more than entry level plastic wheels.

Trakracer to their credit, however, sold an accessory upgrade mount that could be fitted to the RS8 and which was a monumental upgrade in terms of the quality of the mount itself. However it was still restricted to using the two bolt mounting holes on the RS8. And there is no practical way to simply add more holes to the RS8 - the mounting platform is far too small and was never designed with upgraded wheel mounts in mind. The only way around this would be to hire someone to make a steel adapter plate and then have a professional welder come in and attach it. Not sure it is worth going to all that trouble with the biggest problem being welding an adapter to the RS8.

Trakracer brought out the new generation TR8 cockpit quite soon after my actually got my RS8 and although I might have been annoyed by how soon they brought out a new cockpit, they do so on a regular basis and in any case, I did not really think too much of the early versions of the TR8 - but I think they have nailed it now with the Mach 3. It is really hard to see how you could ever significantly improve on a cockpit of this sort of design - all in one with integrated monitor stand that is reasonably priced. After all, it now has two arms leading up to the wheel mount and eight bolts on the wheel mount. Yes, it still flexes especially when you try to mount a high end DD wheel, but it still seems to be a very noticeable upgrade from what I have which is a single arm leading up to a two bolt wheel mount.

So I am of course now thinking I may upgrade to this cockpit from my RS8, with the main reason being the solid wheel mount. But this has me thinking. As per the title, should I be careful what I wish for?

At the moment, with my RS8 and upgraded wheel mount, there is still near zero flex in any plane (for practical purposes) except for the "up / down" one. And that is because of the two bolt mounting - perhaps if all four bolts could have been used on the upgraded mount, the "up / down" flex would also be negligible to non-existent.

But it has me thinking.....I wouldn't want to upgrade my road car suspension to rock hard bushes instead of the rubber ones any more than I would want hard engine mounts versus the existing ones. So there is actually a side of me that worries the force feedback (which I am obviously very used to now) might become overly harsh. Then again, it simply might become more defined and "crisp" but not irritating or harsh.

So does anyone have any specific experience where they were otherwise happy with their simulation setup and cockpit but decided to upgrade nothing at all except the cockpit structure itself and then found the result was almost "too much" (if you understand where I am coming from). Yes, you can re-adjust the feedback of course or tone it down, but if I were to upgrade, I would simply want more detail and clarity, not more harshness or anything that would make sim racing less enjoyable.

Again, using the road car analogy, I would not want to be driving my car very long with fancy suspension upgrades and hard engine mounts. I like it to have the "give" that it has (and yes, I realise this is a road car and not a race car but despite simming in a race car, I do value comfort and smoothness, but I want to be certain we understand you can still have smoothness but with a lot of detail and subtlety!).

PS: I am not interested in any other cockpit other than the TR8 since I require one with an integrated monitor stand and wish to continue using the TrakRacer style of seat (I can actually re-use my old seat).

Do you have any pics of the upgraded mount fitted to the RS8? I have an RS8 Mach 5 and recently broke the standard mount. I was thinking about buying the upgrade mount https://www.trakracer.com.au/trak-racer-new-wheel-mount-for-8020-rigs-and-rs6-m but can't see how it would fit the the rig.

Cheers

 

[Mr Sausage]

Do you have any pics of the upgraded mount fitted to the RS8? I have an RS8 Mach 5 and recently broke the standard mount.Cheers

Here is the upgraded wheel mount on my RS8 Mach 6. As you can see, teh wheel mount itself is excellent. The let down is that it mounts to the RS8 arm extension via only two bolts (there is no other option as there are only two holes and no ability to make more unless a whole new plate is welded to the ring from scratch. So the "weakness" is in the "up / down" plane of the wheel.

That said, I have not upgraded the rig yet as I am hesitant about the newer designs on account of the flatter seat backs of the latest versions and the TR8 being noticeably lower to the floor than the old RS8.

 

[RacingManiac]

Anecdotally I think you would feel really weird too if the rig where the base was mounted to is allowed to move in fashions it can't in a car as well. I am using an Obutto rig and when I first got it I had a G25 with it and it was fine(even just using the clamps as well). The Logitech base itself isn't that heavy and the 2 cantilever arms that runs from the bottom at an angle wasn't bad for the amount of force the wheel outputs. I upgraded to a T500RS next and both the weight of the base and the force of the wheel compounded to a lot of movement(which the first thing to get changed was going from clamp, which TM one sucks anyway, to hard mounted bolts) in the rig that was allow to basically move up and down as you wrestle with the wheel. I modified the rig by adding a support that bolts the base where the wheel mounts to to the shifter mount and adding that degree of support made the whole thing much more rigid and much less distracting. Going from T500 to TSPC reduced the weight of the base and made the movement of the rig even less as you are not as likely to cause the base to move(and keep moving, somewhat) as it has less swaying inertia as well.

The more rigid you can make it the better I think, and that was one of the main reason I always want to avoid a post in the middle style rig.

 

[Mr Sausage]

The single central post on the RS8 is actually surprisingly solid. I've taken footage when driving from the side and virtually all the up / down movement originates at the two bolt mounting point and not the arm itself (though there is obviously flex if you try hard enough). Not saying that aspect cannot be improved - naturally it can and nothing in the world will turn this into a more substantial rig or even a more basic 8020 rig. That is actually why I had contemplated designing an adapter so that there could be a four bolt interface between the RS8 mounting post and TrakRacer's wheel mount upgrade (as per my photo). But then with my lack of welding equipment (let alone zero welding experience) and I just don't think it is worth the cost or effort, especially as it does not address anything other than that specific weakness. I would have had to farm the work out to make the adapter in the first place. Just not worth the effort versus reward.

I will quite possibly end up going with a later model TrakRacer since decent and solid rigs which are within the sane pricing category and which have my favoured integrated monitor mount are not as easy to come by here in Australia without having to pay exorbitant freight and import fees.

There is no doubt the TR8 is an upgrade from the RS8 with the improved mount but even it still has some flex.

By the way, I actually don't have my force feedback settings very high - I don't really need to since I am not using it for real world race training and the Clubsport V2.5 has enough subtle detail such that high forces are simply not needed to resolve the very "low level" detail it can provide (OK, it is not a Fanatec direct drive but every time I use my Clubsport 2.5 - even after two years with it - I just love it every time - no thoughts of upgrading whatsoever). I think the feedback level is actually not much more than I used to have with my G25. But even then, I can feel the rig "damping" that detail, as good as it is.

 

[Mr Sausage]

Well as follow-up I have just purchased the RS6 cockpit (latest version including the upgraded pedal mount). I also bought an Ergotron wall mount so now I have 100% flexibility on a single monitor setup in terms of size and distance from my eyes but just as importantly not going on the rig itself.

Well I have to say the improvement is tangible - the mount on the new RS6 (exactly the same mount as the TR8) is fantastic. It is rock solid and does not move or flex at all. The difference was sufficiently noticeable for me to have to tweak the force feedback because some compromises I had made before were no longer required.

Very happy with this new rig. Yes, some might see it as a sideways upgrade however apart from the pedal deck (which actually has more flex than the old RS8 despite the upgrades), everything is much better. But what is important is that the things that mattered to me are much better. Driving position vastly improved and I can now brake better, more accurately and for longer and it does not annoy my lower back like it used to as the pressure goes through the body at the correct angles now (and not like it did with the SUV-like driving position of the old RS8 which just wasn't suited for prolonged high performance braking).