GRIP AND DRIFT where do you draw the line

[inferno]

Drifting in its modern sense is more of an evolution of one of the aspects of racing know as oversteer. as you know over steer can be usefull in raceing. I remember once when I did a comparison (in GT3 of course) with a mocked up Henesay Venom 800 Viper VS a Speed Twelve. The viper benifited greatly by dialing in a bit of tail out in the big sweepers. Its not uncomon to see a bit of slip angle in the lower classes of raceing today and it was used alot back in the day. Drifting itself is not cut and dry. their are different types of drift as well. the style that focuses on high angle and the style that focuses on speed. speed drifting is more like grip racing than say rally racing. so where do you draw the line. What is Grip raceing and What is Drifting?

 

[Delphic Reason]

You answered your own question...

To ellaborate... The distinction is the intention...

If you are dialing in a bit of oversteer to help you achieve a better exit angle, or to fix a mistake, you are using some drift techniques (or grip techniques, depending on your point of view) to help you achieve better lap times... However, the majority of your lap is grip... Therefore you are not drifting, in the true sense...

Intent and execution define drift and grip...

 

[NoQuarter]

Under race conditions, as opposed to style events, I will use some drifting techniques at certain corners, but only with high powered FR and MR cars. With low powered cars and FF cars I always adhere to complete grip.

I may also use a drift technique, once again only with high powered FR/MR cars, if my intended line is "interrupted" by another driver/AI, depending on the situation.

 

[kensei]

Under race conditions, as opposed to style events, I will use some drifting techniques at certain corners, but only with high powered FR and MR cars. With low powered cars and FF cars I always adhere to complete grip.

I may also use a drift technique, once again only with high powered FR/MR cars, if my intended line is "interrupted" by another driver/AI, depending on the situation.

I agree. I'll use limited drift in corners in race conditions with high (over) powered RR/FR/MR cars that have lower downforce (i.e. normal cars). With true race cars with controlable front and rear downforce it is usually faster to stick with full grip racing, unless the circuit has really really tight turns (like SS 11 or Cote D'Azur), even there drift has limited applications.

With lower powered or FF cars drift in a race application usually results in slower laps times than sticking to grip. They just don't have the power to come out of the 'drift" fast enough and get back on track.

 

[TruenoEightSix]

To me, grip and drift is a matter of style. If one driver can race well using drift techniques, then that's his/her best path to victory. I myself ony use drift in rally driving, since grip is next to impossible in dirt conditions (especially the Swiss Alps track, there is almost no friction on that course at all).

I love grip driving. The precision braking and delicate throttle manipulation, and the fact that one too late stop can cost you victory. I like the way drift looks, but not the way it handles. I feel like the car will lose too much control in a drift.

 

[NoQuarter]

It depends on the situation, TES. Sometimes, especially with a very high powered car, a very tight corner can be run faster by drifting into it and regripping out for a fast exit.

Case in point, the top of the hill at Seattle; at an F1 OLR I ran a while back, IForceV8, who won that race (as well as the entire series) drifted that turn by throwing his F094/s nearly sidways and timing his "regrip" upon clearing the apex. I ran against his qualifying "ghost" and kept up with him up to that turn, where his technique resulted in a nearly .5 second lead at the Sector mark just after that turn. Once I adopted the technique, I kept up to him through that sector and knocked a half second off my previous best effort.

 

[RX-7_FC_DrIfteR]

To me, grip and drift is a matter of style. If one driver can race well using drift techniques, then that's his/her best path to victory.

I agree.

 

[Biased turkey]

Grip = for real asphalt drivers
Drift = for arcade game kids who like to impress ignorant chicks.

If drifting was the fastest way to go from point A to point B , believe me Schum would be drifting all along the curve.

 

[Delphic Reason]

Grip = for real asphalt drivers
Drift = for arcade game kids who like to impress ignorant chicks.

If drifting was the fastest way to go from point A to point B , believe me Schum would be drifting all along the curve.

Interesting how you call every drifter ignorant, yet you are under the delusion that all drifters think they are faster than grip drivers... While I am sure there are a few, most all drifters realise the speed disadvantage... Drifting isn't about speed, or trying to get from point A to point B... It's about controlling a vehicle at and past the limits of adhesion, which ultimately increases your grip driving skill by giving you a better understanding of throttle precision, trail braking, weight transfer, and many other aspects that drifting and grip share... Knowing the limits of the vehicle gives you a distinct advantage... Drifting is not faster than grip, this has been discussed too many times for me to count... It's not about speed... Get it?...

I have always been a grip racer, but I am also a drifter, because I realise the beauty (and advantages) of controlling a vehicle past the limits of adhesion in a smooth racing line, while linking into as many turns as possible... I don't know why drifting and grip have to be so seperated, as far as opinions... They are both fun and usefull, just for different reasons... I enjoy both, and will continue to do so...

Stop the hatred...

 

[NoQuarter]

Stop the hatred...

Indeed, silviadrifter

I personally do not participate in "style drifting" or style drift comps...just not my thing.

But I have taken the time to d/l a few of the vids, and I have to say it looks pretty cool, especially when someone links turns around the entire track.

"Don't dis style drifting just because all you like to do is grip race."

 

[kensei]

Grip = for real asphalt drivers
Drift = for arcade game kids who like to impress ignorant chicks.

If drifting was the fastest way to go from point A to point B , believe me Schum would be drifting all along the curve.

No doubt your screenname is correct, being so closed minded and biased.

👎

 

[Biased turkey]

The thread ask to draw the line. I drew it politely and logically, so if you don't like my opinion, just use the pagedown key.
What a coincidence ,all the arcade drifting kids posted from US

 

[kensei]

The thread ask to draw the line. I drew it politely and logically, so if you don't like my opinion, just use the pagedown key.
What a coincidence ,all the arcade drifting kids posted from US

Well you didn't just voice your opinion. You also voiced a sad little put down of people not like yourself and in the post above yet another sad little put down.

Though you did both as "polite" as they come, they are still sad.

Just because the Tuner/style drift culture isn't your thing (nor is it mine) doesn't make it any less valid as car culture. I'm a grip racing (F1, DTM) and WRC fan mainly but got to see a style drift demostration in California this summer that blew my mind, the big guns from Japan doing it. I think before that I wrote it off much like you but seeing guys who have the upmost control over their car do it was insane. I've also watched some of the better drift videos in the drift forum. The guys over there that do it well are pretty impressive, especially the ones who can link it all together (what especially impresses me are the few I've seen of linking two controlled drifts in the chicane before the tunnel at deep forest. Having driven that chicane many many times I know how hard it is to keep a car "settled" and under full control there).

Like I said elsewhere on this forum RE: drifting. It is all about driving skills and being able to drift the tail of the car (in racing or for style) is just another tool a good driver should have.

If drifting was the fastest way to go from point A to point B , believe me Schum would be drifting all along the curve.

Sorry to say buddy but Schumi is known, and respected, for his ability to use the tail of the car and slide it into turns to improve exits. So ya, Schumi does use it to get form point A to B and he is a the 7 times World Champion, obviously he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

[Catch-my-Drift?]

Sorry to say buddy but Schumi is known, and respected, for his ability to use the tail of the car and slide it into turns to improve exits. So ya, Schumi does use it to get form point A to B and he is a the 7 times World Champion, obviously he doesn't know what he is doing.

Lol! Nicely put Kensei.

GT3 is not a drift game initially. Think about it... everybody that plays GT MUST grip in order to win races. Hence, every drifter is a grip racer (or ex-gripper). Driftng is just a way to extend what GT is offering, thus breaking the limits of the game...

My 2 cents

 

[Delphic Reason]

The thread ask to draw the line. I drew it politely and logically, so if you don't like my opinion, just use the pagedown key.
What a coincidence ,all the arcade drifting kids posted from US

Arcade drifting kid?...

I'm 24 years old... I have a college degree (currently studying for a second), and I am an avid SIMULATION racing game adict ( I am also a GTP moderator... )... I don't particularly enjoy arcade style racers... I help out at local rally's in my area ("Oregon Trail", "Wild West"), watch WRC (as often as possible) and I autocross and rallycross... I have devoloped my grip racing skills for years, and have noticed an even larger increase over the past 2 years, since I have been drifting...

Also, I'm not sure why everyone is grouping drifting with tuner culture... I'm not particularly into the "Tuner" culture... I prefer understated styling, and performance over showy body kits, neon, altezza tails, etc... Yet I am a drifter... How is this possible?.. Well, I am open minded and don't wory about what others blindly belittle...

End of rant...

 

[RX-7_FC_DrIfteR]

Arcade drifting kid?...

I'm 24 years old... I have a college degree (currently studying for a second), and I am an avid SIMULATION racing game adict ( I am also a GTP moderator... )... I don't particularly enjoy arcade style racers... I help out at local rally's in my area ("Oregon Trail", "Wild West"), watch WRC (as often as possible) and I autocross and rallycross... I have devoloped my grip racing skills for years, and have noticed an even larger increase over the past 2 years, since I have been drifting...

Also, I'm not sure why everyone is grouping drifting with tuner culture... I'm not particularly into the "Tuner" culture... I prefer understated styling, and performance over showy body kits, neon, altezza tails, etc... Yet I am a drifter... How is this possible?.. Well, I am open minded and don't wory about what others blindly belittle...

End of rant...

You tell him silviadrifter.

 

[Gen.]

I just had to reply to Biased_Turkey's post. Stereotyping a group is just not the way to go.
Look at SD, he is an avid revhead who knows what he is doing. There are many older members that love drifting, and they all have grip origins. I myself am still a teenager. I still dream of going to the race track and drift. I also am going to a TAFE course in "Light Automotives" for a year, where I will then study in "Mechatronic Engineering". Arcade Styled Ricer Kid? You be the judge..

 

[Biased turkey]

I have nothing against drifting, if you want drift,fine, but please be polite enough to post your thread in the drifting section of the GT3 forum
And please point me to a link or better post a jpeg where Shum is "Drifting " I think you kenseys is completely ignorant about what F1 is about"
So kids, please go back to your sandbox ( the drifting section of GT3 forum )
thanks
B.T.

 

[Polarbear]

"Polite enough to post your thread in the drifting section of the GT3 forum."

As far as I'm concerned, this does concern only drifting, but grip racing and drifting in general. So, I think either section would have been appropriate for this thread.

I have no idea why you have such a stereotypical view, all I know is it's not the best way to get along well in this forum.

 

[Gen.]

Your as bad as the people you are trying to stereotype biased_turkey..

 

[JrunkenC]

I'd have to say I drift and grip depending on the track and car. Sounds so general but... An example would be the hairpin in Midfield, I like to time the braking going downhill so that I can flick the car around the turn using oversteer and have the car facing the right direction coming out of the turn. I like to use this "braking drift" alot in FF cars because they tend to understeer.

Another example of using drifting while I'm racing would be the second turn in Cote d' Azure (right after going uphill) where I like to oversteer the whole corner and then feint to turn right so I come out of the corners into that downhill straight away faster.

Though strangely enough, unlike noquarter and kensei, I generally use drift techniques in FF cars to get quicker times (I guess it would be a combination of trail braking and brake drifting) while i try to stay away from drifting in a MR car because I have a hard time trying to balance the drifts in MR cars and because if anybody bumps me, I generally spin out.

Oh and Biased Turkey, if you ever see pictures of the old races, you'll see lots of drivers getting sideways. The modern race cars have lots of body work, aerodynamics and other enhancements to introduce downforces when going quickly so the cars tend to stick to the ground as well as better tires and better suspension to keep the tires gripping the asphalt.

I remember seeing a picture of Fangio the Maestro drifting the Rouen in Automoblie Magazine a while back so I googled Juan Fangio and I found some pics. Enjoy!!
http://www.rediff.com/sports/2001/mar/03mm3.htm
http://racingphoto.racesimcentral.com/data/501/3714Fangio_Rouen_Slide-med.jpg

 

[TruenoEightSix]

It depends on the situation, TES.

Wow, I have a shortened name...

 

[kensei]

....I think you kenseys is completely ignorant about what F1 is about

Yes, obviously since I disagree with your "biased" opinions I am ignorant. Makes total sense. Thanks for that.

BTW - If you want to see Schumi slipping the tail around in his F1 car watch any race from the 1994 season (prefereably Monaco or the Canadian GP). Watch the Spanish GP from last season when the F2003-GA ran for the first time. Or while you are at it watch any or Senna's drives from the late 1980s (prefereably one where he is in the Lotus).

 

[Wastegate]

I have to agree with kensei's opinions on Schumacher in F1.

From what I understand Schumacher is much more comfortable with oversteer or drift between turn-in and apex than most of his contempories. The '94-'95 Benettons in particular were set up MS to gently drift into corners and Schumacher was able to use the car to it's full potental. His team-mates were quite unable to cope with this, and this is why his very capable teammates Lehto, Verstappen and Herbert were unable to approach his performances.

Indeed even 'aces' Alesi and Berger were unable to drive the car to its potential repeatedly crashing the Benetton B195 in the '95-96 closed season.

Modern F1 cars all drift to a certain extent even with traction control. The optimum performance of the tyre includes a small amount of slippage, and the F1 boffins have programmed the traction control to merely limit the wheelspin to the ideal amount rather than to eliminate it altogether. I guess it's the same reason we don't tend to run TCS at 10 in GT3, but normally somewhere between 0 and 5.

However F1 cars to not drift to the same extent as cars set up for drift competitions. The level of ideal drift is quite small, and is done for performance reasons rather the for show.

----

My personal style in GT3 is to tend to drift the car into corners, try to gather it all midcorner and hopefully exit without drifting too much. Unlike MS it's not because it's necessarily the fastest way, but for me it's the best way I can feel the car underneath me. I think in GT3 the ultimate fastest way depends on the car, some, particularly FFs lose time if you drift them, some others reward drifting on turn-in in order to pivot the car into pointing in the right direction. But 'drift-competition' style driving is almost never the fastest way.

 

[F310B]

Even if you don't have oversteer, a car will slide with all 4 wheels to some extent. Schumacher used to slide even in the understeering Ferraris of 96-98. In modern F1 only Michael Schumacher and Kimi Raikkonen really set their cars up to exploit this sliding (it used to be a more common thing before they introduced grooved tyres). Schumacher's trademark style is to slide the car into corners, but be very smooth on the exit of the bend.

If you watch F1, it tends to transpire that the most 'on-rails' drivers are not the fastest. You get a lot of drivers who are completely 'on rails', with the rear wheels simply following behind the front, and the car doesn't seem to have much lateral movement. These are fast, but no the fastest. The fastest guys are smooth, but in some corners they have more sideways movement in the car. If you read what people say when describing Michael Schumacher, they describe his driving as not 'ragged' nor 'smooth' but rather 'energetic' or 'lively'. When people watched Ayrton Senna, they described his car as 'dancing'. Similarly, other talented drivers like Hakkinen, Raikkonen, are not the on-rails type. Drivers like Prost are the exception rather than the rule (and remember Senna was faster than Prost).

Of the 1994-1995 Benetton, they weren't particularly good cars, contrary to the propaganda spread to protect Senna's image. Senna told other drivers that he could see from following the 1994 Benetton that it was a poor car, it didn't have much grip. Maybe because Schumacher would willingly slide the car into corners the grip defecit was overcome to some extent. If you watch Schumacher driving the ultra-grippy, ultra-balanced Ferrari in 2004 he is a lot tidier, maybe because he doesn't have to slide it to get speed out of the car.

 

[Delphic Reason]

This is wonderful... Look at all the good information we are getting about F1... These topics tend to bring out some interesting facts (and characters )...

 

[1989therat]

All I know is that once I trained myself to drift my lap times would decrease drastically..I then had went to a new level of racing...far pass any of my friends" I beat them in racing,Socom2,FPS and anyother game..lol" I could correct my mistakes. Take a car to it's limit and know just when to brake or hit the gas. My cars do seem to drift and grip at the same time. It's hard to distinguish between the two. Therefore there are 3 styles of driving. Drift,grip and semi-drift. Which is also called "inertial drift" ( read Granturismo 1's manual) This is the ultimate driving style. But you should test them yourself and see which style fits you.


btw....Its good to be back!!!!

therat1989

 

[F310B]

I think the point of my post was that if you slide/drift a high powered racing car, it can negate some serious handling deficiencies.

As for drifting reducing lap times, well some knowledge of drifting will surely make you faster. But whether drifting round corners is faster than gripping depends on the car setup.

If you like to grip, and like to do your braking all in a straight line before turning in, you will not like a car that is set up to slide at all. Whereas if you like to fling the rear end out into corners, and are driving a car with a very solid rear end designed for gripping, you will not be happy or set very good times!

 

[Scaff]

The following is an excert from 'Speed Secrets - Professional Race Driving Techniques' by Ross Bentley

"Neautral steer is the term used to describe when both the front and rear tires lose traction at the same speed or cornering limit, and all four tires are at the same slip angle. Sometimes described as "being in a four-wheel-drift", this is ideally what a driver is striving for when adjusting the handling of the car and trying to balance it."

Just thought I would throw this into the pot, it clearly highlights (as do other sections of the same book) what most people hear clearly understand; that drift techniques do exist and apply on the race track. While this is clear on older (pre grooved tyres) F1, it is far more visable in Sports car or touring car racing.

When driving a car on the limit you will, at times, exceed the slip angles of the tyres and the car will lose traction, depending which tires lose traction, the result is under/over steer or a four wheel drift. The difference between racing and drifting (for compatition) is if you choose to correct the drift or maintain it.

Originally Posted by Biased turkey

Grip = for real asphalt drivers
Drift = for arcade game kids who like to impress ignorant chicks.

If drifting was the fastest way to go from point A to point B , believe me Schum would be drifting all along the curve.

This comment is both fundamentaly wrong when it comes to an understanding of the physics and mechanics of track driving and insulting. For the record, I'm 34 and have been working at a professional level in the motor industry for over 10 years, and being married have little need to impress ignorant chicks.

 

[Swift]

I think the point of my post was that if you slide/drift a high powered racing car, it can negate some serious handling deficiencies.

As for drifting reducing lap times, well some knowledge of drifting will surely make you faster. But whether drifting round corners is faster than gripping depends on the car setup.

I believe he was talking about the skills applied from learning drifting and understanding his cars limits gave him better lap times. And I totally agree with that.

For the record, I'm 34 and have been working at a professional level in the motor industry for over 10 years, and being married have little need to impress ignorant chicks.

Cool beans! I'm 28 now(Just turned on Friday! ), engaged and both my fiance and I have a good time grip driving and drifting in GT3.

So kids, please go back to your sandbox ( the drifting section of GT3 forum )

Man, that was funny. I mean seriously funny! Kids huh? Oh well, I guess whenever something is new, we're the ignorant children that don't know better. Then, 20 years down the road, when we "decide" whats a real form of driving, we get to throw out the generic, stereotypical comments. You say you don't have anything against drifting, and then say that it's for kids in a sandbox? Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

Is it just me, or are the BEST drifters middle aged? I could be wrong...and if I am, please correct me.