Grip vs. Handling

[RewindTape]

First: Hello. I’ve played my share of software racing, primarily Goeff Crammond’s Formula One Grand Prix series. Most hours logged in version two and three, with several complete seasons (including practices and qualifying). Loved the hot seat feature in that series by the way. That’s where I’ve picked up most of my tuning knowledge. Awesome log feature, I wish Gran Turismo had the same.

Second: I play Gran Turismo 5 (the first one I’ve actually owned) with all aids off, a wheel (G27), and I enjoy road cars the most and that’s what I drive/race mostly.

Now; I’ve read posts where people hail a tune that makes the car drive “as on rails” and call the handling “great”. But doesn’t that just mean that, with a specific tire compound, the car can’t exceed the grip/traction? Many people complain that the handling of the Formula Gran Turismo isn’t very good, when I suspect that what they mean is that you can easily drive beyond the limits of even racing soft tires, and then have a very twitchy car to reign in.

I don’t argue that grip isn’t important, I’m arguing that great handling is defined by what happens when you drive beyond the grip of the tires. This is why I tune my cars with default tires and don’t consider fitting a softer compound with less threads “tuning”. I actually disregard all tunes that specify a tire compound, usually Racing Soft (and ABS=1), as the only thing I’ve noticed that is greatly affected by this is break balance. (The more grip, the higher the values have to be to use the available grip, while the balance between them stays the same. As I drive with ABS off, setting this value for the softest tires just makes harder ones lock up at the slightest touch on the brakes. It's much easier to feather the throttle.)

Does anybody else feel that grip and handling are carelessly used as if they were interchangeable, when they are not?

 

[freedomweasel]

While grip and handling aren't strictly interchangeable terms, disregarding any tune with softer tires is silly.

You can slap on sport softs and have the car go around a track faster, but you'll have to tune the suspension in order to get the most out of the new tires. If the tuner is doing their "job" right, that's what they're doing.
In real life and in the game, putting better tires on a car is one the best first steps you can make to improving it's capabilities. This doesn't mean you should buy a Suzuki Swift and slap race slicks on it and call it done, but economy class road cars obviously don't come with performance tires.

 

[RewindTape]

I'm not saying softer tires won't lower your lap times, I'm saying that the important thing with a tune is what happens when the tires start to slip. Trying to solve over- or understeer by fitting softer tires doesn't solve anything, it only hides it until you go over the limit of grip. Before you slap on sport softs you should tune to make the most of the tires you already got. Then, tires with more traction just lets you increase speed through every corner.

Also, I'm not trying to put down those who put a lot of effort in tuning and sharing with the rest of us (I've picked up a few tips from here), I'm just pointing out that, at least to me, the terms grip and handling are two different things. A good handling car is that regardless of fitted tire, whilst a car with very good grip doesn't necessarily handle well.

One could argue that a good handling car is one that you can take to the limit of grip and keep there. That would make it individual as well. :-)

 

[freedomweasel]

I was mostly trying to say that you have tune for the tire. If get the suspension and everything dialed perfectly for comfort softs, and then put on a much grippier tire, a race slick, for example, you're going to need to fiddle with the spring rates a bit to get the car set up properly again.

I definitely agree with you on hiding poor handling with soft tires though. I have been guilty of just putting on better tires if I need to finish a race real quick, but I usually go back later and fix the car up properly.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I'm not saying softer tires won't lower your lap times, I'm saying that the important thing with a tune is what happens when the tires start to slip. Trying to solve over- or understeer by fitting softer tires doesn't solve anything, it only hides it until you go over the limit of grip. Before you slap on sport softs you should tune to make the most of the tires you already got. Then, tires with more traction just lets you increase speed through every corner.

Agree 100% with better tires masking problems...

But as others have said, better tires can create problems of their own. A car that's absolutely perfect on, say, sports softs, will usually have problems with grip loss happening earlier on one end of the car.

So specifying a given tire is not a fault of the tune whatsoever. A car that is perfectly neutral on one tire compound will no longer be with more or less grip.

Also, I'm not trying to put down those who put a lot of effort in tuning and sharing with the rest of us (I've picked up a few tips from here), I'm just pointing out that, at least to me, the terms grip and handling are two different things. A good handling car is that regardless of fitted tire, whilst a car with very good grip doesn't necessarily handle well.

Overall grip will dictate how fast you can go; the handling balance will dictate how well you can use what grip is available.

So a car can "handle well" but have absolutely no grip for a given tire compound, likewise, it can drive like a wet bar of soap but still have ridiculous grip levels... When you keep all four tires happy.

One could argue that a good handling car is one that you can take to the limit of grip and keep there. That would make it individual as well. :-)

It's individual to an extent but a genuinely easy to drive, good handling car will be easy to keep right on the limit of grip for a very large number of drivers. Yes, some people prefer their cars looser than others or vice versa but neutral is neutral.

 

[budious]

Also, I'm not trying to put down those who put a lot of effort in tuning and sharing with the rest of us (I've picked up a few tips from here), I'm just pointing out that, at least to me, the terms grip and handling are two different things. A good handling car is that regardless of fitted tire, whilst a car with very good grip doesn't necessarily handle well.

I agree, I generally start all my tunes on the lowest grade tire the car can handle without the stock HP overwhelming the grip on acceleration. It's much easier to notice the smaller imbalances on Sport Hard than Race Soft, and tuning out those inconsistencies add up to fractional gains once fitted with Race Soft.

 

[RewindTape]

I was mostly trying to say that you have tune for the tire. If get the suspension and everything dialed perfectly for comfort softs, and then put on a much grippier tire, a race slick, for example, you're going to need to fiddle with the spring rates a bit to get the car set up properly again.

But as others have said, better tires can create problems of their own. A car that's absolutely perfect on, say, sports softs, will usually have problems with grip loss happening earlier on one end of the car.

So specifying a given tire is not a fault of the tune whatsoever. A car that is perfectly neutral on one tire compound will no longer be with more or less grip.

No, I don't think it is a fault in the tune stating that it has been done with racing softs and ABS=1. That is very good information for those looking for tunes.

However, I did six races in the European Championship, Rome circuit, in three different cars I think have very good handling (What's wrong with being virtually paid for the "research"? ). I tried to especially push the cars in turn 2-3-4 (Piazza del Colosseo -> Via Celia Vibenna), out of the hairpin (Via dei Cerchi), and in the last three corners (Piazza del Compidoglio -> Altare della Patricia).
For your convenience, here is a map of the track: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128441

I did the race twice with each car; once on sport mediums (for reference) and once on racing medium (for a ridiculous amount of grip) to see if the grip changed the handling.
The RUF RGT '00 (which I have fiddled with: 416 BHP and 1223 kg) was not enough to push the racing tires over the limit without being reckless, e.g. trying to Scandinavian flick it. I'm too used to driving sport tires, I think, so the speed was too low.
So I upped the ante to the RUF CTR2 '96 (533 BHP and 1380 kg). With that I was able to more easily reach the limit of grip, but the stability of the 4WD was still keeping things orderly.
Then I thought that I should choose a car that I haven't tuned in any way, still handles extraordinarily, and would be able to give the racing tires a challenge. So, I whipped out my McLaren MP4-12C '10 (624 BHP, 1350 kg – Brake balance: 3/2). That ruined the paint job. Mental note to self: Don't whip the car.
I was almost four seconds faster with the racing tires on the McLaren, but the handling was still the same, and that went for all three cars on both tire compounds while exceeding available grip.

My conclusion is still that tires doesn't change the handling, only the grip. Perhaps what people perceive as altered handling with increased grip, is that the forces acting on a car with lots of grip when traction is lost, are much greater. Greater forces means that the margin of error in predicting the skid and correcting for it, are that much smaller (and sometimes it doesn't matter what you do - 🤬 you, Laws of Physics). I'm not convinced that increased grip changes the handling. It changes how you drive the car to go fast, as seen in rally, which have to cope with comparatively low grip and high power.

So a car can "handle well" but have absolutely no grip for a given tire compound, likewise, it can drive like a wet bar of soap but still have ridiculous grip levels... When you keep all four tires happy.

I actually don't really understand how a car could have a ridiculous level of grip AND drive like a wet bar of soap, at the same time. Please elaborate.

It's individual to an extent but a genuinely easy to drive, good handling car will be easy to keep right on the limit of grip for a very large number of drivers. Yes, some people prefer their cars looser than others or vice versa but neutral is neutral.

Yes, indeed, when a large amount of people can drive a car on the limit of the four tires' grip, I'd say that car handles well, as it implies that there is no unpredictable behaviour in the car.

I agree, I generally start all my tunes on the lowest grade tire the car can handle without the stock HP overwhelming the grip on acceleration. It's much easier to notice the smaller imbalances on Sport Hard than Race Soft, and tuning out those inconsistencies add up to fractional gains once fitted with Race Soft.

Like how I do it. Everything happens much more slowly when using tires with less grip, and it's therefore also easier to figure out what's happening with weight transfers, etc. I just wish we could log damper movement, tire skid, and so forth. It would make tuning much easier. Usually, I stop at sport softs though, to more easily use that slight power oversteer to turn the car - such driving pleasure.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

No, I don't think it is a fault in the tune stating that it has been done with racing softs and ABS=1. That is very good information for those looking for tunes.

However, I did six races in the European Championship, Rome circuit, in three different cars I think have very good handling (What's wrong with being virtually paid for the "research"? ). I tried to especially push the cars in turn 2-3-4 (Piazza del Colosseo -> Via Celia Vibenna), out of the hairpin (Via dei Cerchi), and in the last three corners (Piazza del Compidoglio -> Altare della Patricia).
For your convenience, here is a map of the track: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128441

I did the race twice with each car; once on sport mediums (for reference) and once on racing medium (for a ridiculous amount of grip) to see if the grip changed the handling.
The RUF RGT '00 (which I have fiddled with: 416 BHP and 1223 kg) was not enough to push the racing tires over the limit without being reckless, e.g. trying to Scandinavian flick it. I'm too used to driving sport tires, I think, so the speed was too low.

Rather, the fronts now give way first. The car can (and should) be loosened up when you have more grip.

So I upped the ante to the RUF CTR2 '96 (533 BHP and 1380 kg). With that I was able to more easily reach the limit of grip, but the stability of the 4WD was still keeping things orderly.

Limit of front grip, sure. Rear grip? Nope.

Then I thought that I should choose a car that I haven't tuned in any way, still handles extraordinarily, and would be able to give the racing tires a challenge. So, I whipped out my McLaren MP4-12C '10 (624 BHP, 1350 kg – Brake balance: 3/2). That ruined the paint job. Mental note to self: Don't whip the car.
I was almost four seconds faster with the racing tires on the McLaren, but the handling was still the same, and that went for all three cars on both tire compounds while exceeding available grip.

I will bet money that each and every one of these cars understeers at the absolute limit on S3s and understeers on the limit on R3s. If they were dead neutral (when the tires let go, they ALL let go) on S3s, they would understeer pronouncedly on R3s.

My conclusion is still that tires doesn't change the handling, only the grip. Perhaps what people perceive as altered handling with increased grip, is that the forces acting on a car with lots of grip when traction is lost, are much greater. Greater forces means that the margin of error in predicting the skid and correcting for it, are that much smaller (and sometimes it doesn't matter what you do - 🤬 you, Laws of Physics). I'm not convinced that increased grip changes the handling. It changes how you drive the car to go fast, as seen in rally, which have to cope with comparatively low grip and high power.

More grip in a RWD or AWD car will make the front break away earlier in comparison to the rear vs lower grip tires... Thereby unbalancing it. Less grip = rear breaks away sooner under power.

I actually don't really understand how a car could have a ridiculous level of grip AND drive like a wet bar of soap, at the same time. Please elaborate.

Rather easily. It can be unbalanced to the point of being very difficult to drive (entry or exit oversteer) but still hit extremely high cornering speeds when and if you do get it right.

Yes, indeed, when a large amount of people can drive a car on the limit of the four tires' grip, I'd say that car handles well, as it implies that there is no unpredictable behaviour in the car.

👍

Like how I do it. Everything happens much more slowly when using tires with less grip, and it's therefore also easier to figure out what's happening with weight transfers, etc. I just wish we could log damper movement, tire skid, and so forth. It would make tuning much easier. Usually, I stop at sport softs though, to more easily use that slight power oversteer to turn the car - such driving pleasure.

Honestly, a simple tire pyrometer would go miles for tuning suspension. It would entirely eliminate the guessing game that is camber.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Honestly, a simple tire pyrometer would go miles for tuning suspension. It would entirely eliminate the guessing game that is camber.

This, times a billion 👍

 

[RewindTape]

Zombie thread:
(Braaaaiiins... )

Real life break occurred.

...
I will bet money that each and every one of these cars understeers at the absolute limit on S3s and understeers on the limit on R3s. If they were dead neutral (when the tires let go, they ALL let go) on S3s, they would understeer pronouncedly on R3s.

Well, you can try driving the McLaren yourself if you don’t agree with my assessment of the handling. It has, not surprisingly, a slight entry understeer and exit oversteer (as that is what most people drives fast consistently, i.e. good handling). R3 (=racing softs?) allows a more liberal use of power without spinning out on corner exit, and increases understeer if you previously used some slippage to turn the car. I probably alter my driving style, without thinking about it, to match the grip levels as the cars still handled well.

More grip in a RWD or AWD car will make the front break away earlier in comparison to the rear vs lower grip tires... Thereby unbalancing it. Less grip = rear breaks away sooner under power.

This is so obvious I thought of it as implied. 👍
Deceleration (and turning) as well as acceleration must be considered in the search for maximum speed, dangling in the balance of them all.
This thread have derailed from the initial question (gripe) though, so I'll just say that I like my tunes to cope with varying amounts of grip, as they otherwise would turn useless in the event of rain (as a human though, it's my prerogative to not follow my own rules all the time). Hopefully we'll be able to save different setups (dry/wet/tire/etc.) for each car in the future. It would make me try out more of other peoples tunes too, as I don't keep "one the side" records. Why should I have to?

Rather easily. It can be unbalanced to the point of being very difficult to drive (entry or exit oversteer) but still hit extremely high cornering speeds when and if you do get it right.

Ok, I see what you mean then, and it reinforces that grip and handling are indeed separate concepts. 👍
Also, I’m looking at you, “Yellow Bird”.

Honestly, a simple tire pyrometer would go miles for tuning suspension. It would entirely eliminate the guessing game that is camber.

This, times a billion

I guess I’m just spoiled by Geoff Crammond, but anything that improves performance analysis would be welcome.

 

[risewithefallen]

I think that it is obvious that there are things that you must have to make a very very fast car. it isn't very hard to get a car to lap the nordscheife in under seven seconds, at least on a video game it isn't. with racing soft tires, proper suspension and drivetrain tune, and just the right amount of power, you can do extremely quick laps. however i don't really get a thrill out of setting a ridiculously fast time. i enjoy myself more when i drive right on the edge of control, if not beyond. like it has been said on this thread, "I’m arguing that great handling is defined by what happens when you drive beyond the grip of the tires." i think there should be a thread stating tuning settings that make a car ridiculously fun, not just fast. tuning so that the tires will just start to slide and the car is controlled with the throttle, not so much the steering. does anyone agree? if so, post up your "fun car" settings

 

[risewithefallen]

I'm not saying softer tires won't lower your lap times, I'm saying that the important thing with a tune is what happens when the tires start to slip. Trying to solve over- or understeer by fitting softer tires doesn't solve anything, it only hides it until you go over the limit of grip. Before you slap on sport softs you should tune to make the most of the tires you already got. Then, tires with more traction just lets you increase speed through every corner.

Also, I'm not trying to put down those who put a lot of effort in tuning and sharing with the rest of us (I've picked up a few tips from here), I'm just pointing out that, at least to me, the terms grip and handling are two different things. A good handling car is that regardless of fitted tire, whilst a car with very good grip doesn't necessarily handle well.

One could argue that a good handling car is one that you can take to the limit of grip and keep there. That would make it individual as well. :-)

You said that you should tune to make the most of the tires which you already have, but i would say to tune for the tires you will use on the car. if you have a drift car you shouldn't tune it for the sport-hard tires that come stock on the car. and i totally agree that grip and handling are different things, but i think there is a direct correlation to grip and handling, like if you under or oversteer it is a result of a loss of grip, and shows that the car is tuned incorrectly (unless of course you, like me, like to tune certain cars for a little bit of oversteer :]..)

 

[Rusi]

My fun car settings

MR2 supercharged 88'

buy the best intake and exhaust and strip all the weight.

ENGINE
- sports ECU
- lvl 3 tune

TURBO
- supercharger

AERO
- type a spoiler

TIRES
- SS

TRANSMISSION
7/15/8

SUSPENSION
-height -25/-25
-spring 7.5/8.8
-d ext. 6/6
-d comp. 6/6
- roll 6/6

-camber 2.0/2.0
-toe -0.15/0.10

NOTES
This car is fun to drive because it tries to tokyo drift every turn and you can still bring it back with some tidy counter steering and heavy throttle. I had fun and if you don't have fun who cares I'm the best in the world anyways.

 

[sanmusa]

Grip and handling are definitely too different things, but when they work together they complement each other. You can have a car that is too grippy but doesn't handle well, but generally for a car to handle well it needs to grip well. I try not to be overkill on too grippy tires, and I shy away from racing tires on anything but racing cars. Even on those I rarely go for racing soft tires. Most of my cars end up with sports soft tires.

One way you can see a car that needs less grippy tires are the RUF BTR and CTR, I put sport medium tires in the front (less grip) and sport soft tires in the rear (more grip). That cured the extreme oversteer that plagues those cars and provided what is in my opinion a very balanced ride that handles very well.

 

[Ronald6]

Sorry to revive a dead thread but I saw this and had to add my $0.02.

IRL I have a friend who owns a '96 MR2 and a NSX (forgot the year). The NSX is a faster car, in a straight line or in the corners. But he would rather drive the MR2. Why? Because the MR2 is a much more forgiving car. If he pushes the NSX and reaches the limit of grip he will not know till he's in the wall. If he pushes the MR2 to the limit he will know right up to the moment before the tyres lose their grip.

He can push the MR2 to its limit safely because he knows where the limit is (like when I drive my brohers MR2). He can't push the NSX because you can't ever tell where the limit is.

So: the MR2 handles better (under your definition) but the NSX has more grip.

 

[Machate-man]

Overall grip will dictate how fast you can go; the handling balance will dictate how well you can use what grip is available.

This is The Answer:tup:

the handling balance will dictate how well you can use what grip is available.

This is why stock cars usually have soft suspensions. In order to utilize the maximum grip that, say Comfort softs, have, the suspension needs to be toned down. Now, if the grip increases to sports softs, the suspension can be stiffened accordingly to utilize the added grip.

 

[Disavowed]

Rotary Junkie definitely gave the right answer. A skidpad will show you how well a car grips and the slalom will show you how the car handles. I think the Lamborghini Murcielago is a great example of extremely high grip but crap handling while it's little brother, the Gallardo, is a better handling car by far.