GT or GT40

[Perfect Balance]

My post was centered around never being able to change people's minds. It'll always be the GT40 b/c that's what folks are used to calling it after 40 years and listenting to Ford in the 60's market it as such, despite Ford these days trying to set the record straight.

The Ford today is not the same as yesterday.

Mods: Please lock.

👍I agree on that part of the post, but I was talking about the first part of it. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentences to be exact.

As I said before, I call it the GT40 myself.

 

[McLaren]

👍I agree on that part of the post, but I was talking about the first part of it. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentences to be exact.

As I said before, I call it the GT40 myself.

True, but to me, those original 11 will always remain the real GTs as Ford never marketed them or called them any different. But that's me.
I know the Ford GT40 is acceptable as a Ford GT, but there's just been far too many years, too many articles and magazines labelling it as such with Ford doing nothing to say, "Um, it's a GT" since they didn't care as long as it got decent reviews, for folks to ever think different.

As much as it is Ford's (the makers) word, they really don't have a chance to change our minds thanks to 40 years of GT40. But again...that's just me.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

Ok one more try. This also explains the Henry Ford Quote.

http://www.gt40-1012.com/web/tyjvkxau_00.01.01.01.0000_alternance_2.html

It appears that the American development team referred to it as the Ford GT car. Customer cars developed (under project GT40) in Europe used the Ford GT Chassis with the 427 engine and were called the Ford GT40


All the skills were mobilised and the "Ford GT" was designed in a record time with the help of Ford USA and its computers. The lines stemmed from the concept "Mustang GT" and naturally from the Lola GT.


The 24 Hours of Le Mans

After a press presentation in the USA it was transported to France without development for the preliminary practice in April. It showed a lack of stability and performance being only just superior to the Cobras.

The Le Mans 24 hours were a failure with one car accident damaged and the other having retired owing to a mechanical fault. The car would be remembered as being difficult to drive and very unstable but nevertheless producing the fastest lap and showing an unquestionable potential. The Ford management was not satisfied and a call to order was addressed to FAV. The Ford management was not very indulgent towards Wyer who had the competition management of the GT40s taken from him and was left in charge of producing “customer racing" GT40 MK Is, road cars and subsequently, MK IIIs. The GT40 programme was about to receive an American style vision of racing and in particular of power...


The Ford "427"

Some in the USA thought that to beat Ferrari in the Prototype class, the large 427 engine from the Falcon would be necessary in an improved Ford GT chassis. On a purely experimental basis Shelby was entrusted with the responsibility to install the 427 in a GT40 and to enter it in Le Mans.

The Ford GT was renamed the Ford GT40 Mark II, the "40" corresponding to its height in inches. It suffered from the very start with transmission problems. In fact, as there was no gearbox available to cope with such torque, Ford would build one: the Kar Kraft T44

 

[McLaren]

The Ford GT was renamed the Ford GT40 Mark II, the "40" corresponding to its height in inches. It suffered from the very start with transmission problems. In fact, as there was no gearbox available to cope with such torque, Ford would build one: the Kar Kraft T44

And henceforth, your chassis codes changed.
Not trying to re-ignite the flames, just saying that remains the reason for the chassis code change.

But I think we can agree, while it's going to remain known as the GT40, it is still acceptable in some form, to call it a GT since that's what Ford originally wanted it to be.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

Yep so The MkIs were Ford GTs when they didn't work out the MkIIs became Ford GT40s and the production codes changed as evidenced in my earlier post. Henry Fords quote was referring to the original Ford GTs (he was probably also a little bitter that Ford Europes GT40 did better than his development boys, with a little help from Carol Shelby of course).

The defence rests your honour.

 

[Perfect Balance]

👍

Frankly, I'm too tired to think properly, and would rather not attempt to continue this, as I have no new information, and the recent posts make perfect sense.

The final 2 posts in this thread before mine round it off nicely, so +rep to both of you for a good discussion.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

👍

Frankly, I'm too tired to think properly, and would rather not attempt to continue this, as I have no new information, and the recent posts make perfect sense.

The final 2 posts in this thread before mine round it off nicely, so +rep to both of you for a good discussion.

And +rep to you sir for a fine battle of minds over a very cool car!

 

[a6m5]

I also thought the original was called GT40, but after reading through this thread, I get the impression that maybe the pre-production, or the concept models were "Ford GT"? And actual race, and production models were named "GT40"?

Only thing I could find to support the "GT40" name was this:

GT40 brochure pics(they are the same):1 2

 

[ExigeEvan]

OMG I MADE A THREAD WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING!



[EDIT] I'm guessing a mods work?

 

[daan]

OMG I MADE A THREAD WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING!



[EDIT] I'm guessing a mods work?

And now look at what you've done.... 10 pages of arguments overnight and its all your fault!

 

[Slicks]

Here's what I know:
Reguardless of opinion, one can find sources that name the car as GT or GT40. It is up to debate as to the true name (And true years that each name lasted), but here's what is known as fact: Ford, as we know it today, could not take the GT40 name; It has been copyrighted to a different company, and is currently known as the Ford GT because it was simply uneconomical to purchase the GT40 name from (whatever company) is the current owner.

 

[a6m5]

I've heard, or read the same. That Ford no longer owned the naming rights.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ok one more try. This also explains the Henry Ford Quote.

http://www.gt40-1012.com/web/tyjvkxau_00.01.01.01.0000_alternance_2.html



The Ford GT was renamed the Ford GT40 Mark II, the "40" corresponding to its height in inches. It suffered from the very start with transmission problems. In fact, as there was no gearbox available to cope with such torque, Ford would build one: the Kar Kraft T44

you missed the next paragragh

The MKII ran into big problems concerning its brakes, tyres and of aerodynamics. It would be fitted with appendages, wings and the like to provide adherence . These 24 hours would be once again a bitter failure although Ford again set the best lap time and best maximum speed... showing their potential but Ferrari celebrated its 7th consecutive victory, which was humiliating for Ford. The only consolation of this season would be the victory of Gurney/Bondurant in the Daytona 1000km with a MKI 4.7l, the first victory of the Ford GT.

well look at that straight back to refering it as the Ford GT.dont see how that explains the henry ford quote as it doesnt say he said that only the prototypes were the GT's.

 

[ExigeEvan]

And now look at what you've done.... 10 pages of arguments overnight and its all your fault!

And I'm not even part of the discussion

 

[Tornado]

well look at that straight back to refering it as the Ford GT.

The problem with that is that the 4.7L was the Mk. 1, which was a Ford GT. Starting with and after the Mk. II the car's were the GT40, which is what the rest of the article was about (for example, talking about the poor brakes). In essence, it was saying how the Mark II (the GT40) failed to wind Le Mans but the Mark I (the GT) was successful at Daytona. They were talking about two different cars, not one car as you seem to be saying.

Ok, the Ford GT was also called the Ford GT40. Hooray, I knew that from the beginning. I need something that says it was one and not the other, and after 9 pages I'm still waiting.

Something I am very surprised to have seen not challenged, but I fail to see why you need such documentation. The article you quoted said that the 1965 car was officially the GT after the fact, and it was obviously only put out as a PR move to cover Ford's ass when they figured out that the GT40 name that the 2002 concept car was originally called (and indeed, was the official name for the race car after 1965) couldn't be used without paying for it.
They would have called the 2005 car GT40 and continued to say that the GT40 was the real name for the race car when promoting the two had they been able to use the name. That's why I would only use Ford press releases dealing with either the 2005 car and the original race car that were written before 2002. Considering all of the period documentation as well as the chassis codes refer to the car as GT40, I'd say it was pretty obvious that the car was really the GT40. They essentially ret-conned the GT40 name to save face. Nothing more, nothing less; and it doesn't really change the name that the car actually had in 1965-1969.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Something I am very surprised to have seen not challenged, but I fail to see why you need such documentation. The article you quoted said that the 1965 car was officially the GT after the fact, and it was obviously only put out as a PR move to cover Ford's ass when they figured out that the GT40 name that the 2002 concept car was originally called (and indeed, was the official name for the race car after 1965) couldn't be used without paying for it.
Nothing more, nothing less; and it doesn't really change the name that the car actually had in 1965-1969.

erm....

Throughout the years and despite the GT40 nickname and various versions including Mark II, III, IV and the less known and aesthetically best-forgotten “Mirage” models, at the insistence of Henry Ford II, the cars continued to the nomenclature “Ford GT” or just “Ford” on their body-sides and steering wheel hub.
The legendary Ford GT racing program culminated in June of 1969 with its last victory at Le Mans.

 

[Tornado]

erm....

Which proves what? The GT40 was the bookend of the Ford GT racing program. What is your point? It started as the Ford GT, was renamed the GT40. It was still the same program. And Henry Ford's insistence really means very little, by the way, especially when putting decals on the car is about all he does.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Which proves what? The GT40 was the bookend of the Ford GT racing program. What is your point? It started as the Ford GT, was renamed the GT40. It was still the same program. And Henry Ford's insistence really means very little, by the way, especially when putting decals on the car is about all he does.

he himself said the car was called the ford gt,shelby who ran/devloped the project for a fair number of years said the cars were called the ford gt,ford themself say the cars were called the ford gt what more do you need than the 3 most important people/company in the project at the time.

 

[Tornado]

shelby who ran/devloped the project for a fair number of years said the cars were called the ford gt,

I'm sure you have proof of this, yes?

ford themself say the cars were called the ford gt

No, they didn't. And regardless of which, you can't base your argument on what you posted above because what you posted above doesn't support your argument.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm sure you have proof of this, yes?

yes pb posted it on page 3/4 but he then removed it to fit in other articles and they did the article has been posted a few times.

 

[Tornado]

yes pb posted it on page 3/4 but he then removed it to fit in other articles.

Ah. So you don't.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ah. So you don't.

I saw an interview with Carroll Shelby and the interviewer said something about the GT40 and Shelby QUICKLY corrected him and informed him that the original car was the GT not the GT40. He then added that GT40 was a nickname and that was all.

Heres the fact. the original Ford GT40 in 1965 wasnt acutally even called a GT40. it was the the Ford GT. Carroll shelby never intended it to be called the gt40. the car was 40 inches tall so people nicknamed it the gt40. so the new one is just called the GT. and also its 44 inches tall instead of 40. and gt44 wouldnt sound as cool.

there you go

 

[Tornado]

I saw an interview with Carroll Shelby and the interviewer said something about the GT40 and Shelby QUICKLY corrected him and informed him that the original car was the GT not the GT40. He then added that GT40 was a nickname and that was all.

And when was this interview performed?

Heres the fact. the original Ford GT40 in 1965 wasnt acutally even called a GT40. it was the the Ford GT. Carroll shelby never intended it to be called the gt40. the car was 40 inches tall so people nicknamed it the gt40.

Yes, Caroll Shelby had control over what it was called. Or cared.
And regardless of which, that is untrue because the original cars were never called the GT40 anyways, so it sounds like the entire interview was filled with inaccuracies.

so the new one is just called the GT. and also its 44 inches tall instead of 40. and gt44 wouldnt sound as cool.

That's just plain fallacy. Ford produced a concept car called the GT40. Ford greenlit the concept car called the GT40 as the GT40. Ford realized they didn't own the name to the GT40, so they renamed it the Ford GT. Every single automotive magazine at the time covered (and widely mocked) this, and it was brought up again when the exact same thing happened over the resurrection of the Futura name. Ford pulled a PR stunt to get themselves out of calling it the GT40 to save face and ret-conned the name of the original car.
The 2005 car was going to be called "GT40" after the race car's official name. They didn't care how tall it was. Only after they figured out that they couldn't legally call it GT40 without paying to do so did Ford rename the car to GT and begin selling them. There is much recent documentation on this, so don't even try to say that isn't the case.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

so you saying that henry ford,shelby and the ford motor company liers then

the orginal always was called the ford gt,ford wanted to call the new gt the gt40 as that became the iconic name but then discovered they couldnt so went with the orginal name of the 60s car.

 

[Tornado]

so you saying that henry ford,shelby and the ford motor company liers then

Do you understand the concept of a ret-con? It essentially allows you to do whatever the hell you want by changing the past to suit your needs. Ford Motor Company did just this with the GT40. And I'm saying Henry Ford and Carroll Shelby (in particular) had little to do with what the car was named. Because if they did, the chassis codes wouldn't be what they were, period documentation wouldn't be what it was, and Ford wouldn't have said the 2002 concept was named after the historic race car before they figured out they couldn't.
Oh, and its "liars."

the orginal always was called the ford gt,

No, it wasn't. Period documentation, pre-2002 documentation, chassis codes and various circumstantial evidence says you're wrong.

ford wanted to call the new gt the gt40 as that became the iconic name but then discovered they couldnt so went with the orginal name of the 60s car.

Which is true, but ironically not in the way you think it is.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

carroll worked on the ford gt more than anyone so i would be pretty convinced he would have had alot of influence on the name of the car,period documentation shows it was called the ford gt more than gt40 and various circumstantial evidence as you say proves that i am right with this.

even in here they call it ford gt

 

[Tornado]

carroll worked on the ford gt more than anyone so i would be pretty convinced he would have had alot of influence on the name of the car,

No, it doesn't mean that. It means he had a lot of influence over the internals and design of the car. Which means nothing over what it was called.

period documentation shows it was called the ford gt more than gt40

This argument has been done to death simply because you refuse to acknowledge what documentation refers to what car.

and various circumstantial evidence as you say proves that i am right with this.

Actually, it proves the opposite, as the circumstantial evidence you point out as supporting your point actually contradicts your point.

even in here they call it ford gt

Which is quite obviously a Ford funded PR piece done after 2002, with the statement in question being said by a Ford executive. They could have been talking about the original prototypes for all you know.
And for that matter, they call the Mustang GT500 the Mustang GT, so who the hell knows what they are talking about.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

its been said several times,from Henry Ford II,Carroll Shelby and the FORD motor company have ALL said that it was called the Ford GT and not the GT40 now pr or not i doubt those kind of people would lie.if you or anyone can come up with some that that says the cars were called the GT40 and not the GT(or as near to that is possible) then the facts show that the car was called the Ford GT and NOT the GT40.

 

[Tornado]

its been said several times,from Henry Ford II,Carroll Shelby and the FORD motor company have ALL said that it was called the Ford GT and not the GT40 now pr or not i doubt those kind of people would lie.

And I have said why all of these "undoubtable facts" are irrelevant. Ford Motor Company calls it the GT now purely so they could save face. They 100% ret-conned the entire thing. Carroll Shelby had nothing to do with naming the car. And if Henry Ford particularly cared whether or not it was called GT40, the chassis identification wouldn't have been what it was, sales brochures wouldn't have been what they are, and Ford wouldn't have said in early 2002 that the 2002 concept was named after the historic race car.

if you or anyone can come up with some that that says the cars were called the GT40 and not the GT(or as near to that is possible) then the facts show that the car was called the Ford GT and NOT the GT40.

You posted, in post #7 in this thread, period documentation that flat out stated as fact that the car was called the GT40. The facts do not state it was called the Ford GT, at all. The only period documentation that refers to the car as "Ford GT" is referring to the car that the GT40 was developed on, which was the Ford GT and was a different car. All you have proven is that the Ford GT was renamed the Ford GT40 in 1965, which is what you have been arguing so vehemently against.
Everything you have posted to refute the name was done up by Ford after they renamed the Ford GT40 concept to Ford GT, and as such is largely irrelevant when compared to period documentation.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

And I have said why all of these "undoubtable facts" are irrelevant. Ford Motor Company calls it the GT now purely so they could save face. They 100% ret-conned the entire thing. Carroll Shelby had nothing to do with naming the car. And if Henry Ford particularly cared whether or not it was called GT40, the chassis identification wouldn't have been what it was, sales brochures wouldn't have been what they are, and Ford wouldn't have said in early 2002 that the 2002 concept was named after the historic race car.


You posted, in post #7 in this thread, period documentation that flat out stated as fact that the car was called the GT40. The facts do not state it was called the Ford GT, at all. The only period documentation that refers to the car as "Ford GT" is referring to the car that the GT40 was developed on, which was the Ford GT and was a different car. All you have proven is that the Ford GT was renamed the Ford GT40 in 1965, which is what you have been arguing so vehemently against.
Everything you have posted to refute the name was done up by Ford after they renamed the Ford GT40 concept to Ford GT, and as such is largely irrelevant when compared to period documentation.

The Ford Motor Company didnt do that to save face they named the car after its proper name and not the iconic nickname the car was giving due to not owning the rights to the name,if you can back up with evidence saying that they did it to save face then go head,again you are making the assumtion that they did without providing facts.what i posted in post 7 showed in that the car was refered to more being the GT and not the gt40.

carroll might not have had any say in the name but he worked on the cars for almost 5 years so i would be pretty confident that he would know what the car was called.