GT5 prologue physics embarass me

[African Kat]

Okay, being a GT fanatic, this is very hard for me to bring up but i feel it has to be said:

Prologues Physics on street tyres(N series)is ludacrously unrealistic

The other day i convinced my brother and some friends to try my gt5 out with the G25 steering. They are very competent drivers and some, together with me, take part in club events and track days on a regular basis, though i am the gamer of the bunch.

They requested street cars with street tyres, so i chose N3 tyres, and the result was embarassing for me. They struggled to find any consistency and veered off the track almost all the time. I was embarrassed because i always bragg to them about GT's realism and afterwards i realised how unrealistic GT5s' street tyre physics really are.

One friend commented that if street cars really handled like that in reality, that they would be death traps. At that moment i defended GT with gusto, as a true fan would, but later i realised that he was right. The street tyres on GT are too 'slippery' and although we gamers learn to contol the cars well, a good 'real life' driver should be able to make the transition to GT5 much much easier.

I sincerely hope PD update their physics even further so its closer to reality. I know some die hard GT fans would say that it would make it too easy but surely we'd rather have true to life physics.

GT4's physics have great feel and 'bite' - all thats lacking there is oversteer at the limit and probably an adjustment in slow speed understeer. I had the privelige of driving Mazda's RX8 on a track( street tyres) and you would'nt believe how much of 'prodding' is actually needed to get the back end to step out.

I know PD is ultra busy with gettin cars modelled etc, to get GT5 out in time, but i sincerely hope the physics is revisited. I took a look at one of the top ranked GT users replay footage(f430-suzuka) and was surprised to see just how 'untidy' the driving looked. The wheels were turned in much more than required and it just looked wrong. In reality, a neater driving style gets better lap times.

Also i feel the steering settings need to be stronger. I'm at the max strength setting for the G25 with power steering off, but it's still too light.

Comments?

 

[P1]

Okay, being a GT fanatic, this is very hard for me to bring up but i feel it has to be said:

Prologues Physics on street tyres(N series)is ludacrously unrealistic

The other day i convinced my brother and some friends to try my gt5 out with the G25 steering. They are very competent drivers and some, together with me, take part in club events and track days on a regular basis, though i am the gamer of the bunch.

They requested street cars with street tyres, so i chose N3 tyres, and the result was embarassing for me. They struggled to find any consistency and veered off the track almost all the time. I was embarrassed because i always bragg to them about GT's realism and afterwards i realised how unrealistic GT5s' street tyre physics really are.

One friend commented that if street cars really handled like that in reality, that they would be death traps. At that moment i defended GT with gusto, as a true fan would, but later i realised that he was right. The street tyres on GT are too 'slippery' and although we gamers learn to contol the cars well, a good 'real life' driver should be able to make the transition to GT5 much much easier.

I sincerely hope PD update their physics even further so its closer to reality. I know some die hard GT fans would say that it would make it too easy but surely we'd rather have true to life physics.

GT4's physics have great feel and 'bite' - all thats lacking there is oversteer at the limit and probably an adjustment in slow speed understeer. I had the privelige of driving Mazda's RX8 on a track( street tyres) and you would'nt believe how much of 'prodding' is actually needed to get the back end to step out.

I know PD is ultra busy with gettin cars modelled etc, to get GT5 out in time, but i sincerely hope the physics is revisited. I took a look at one of the top ranked GT users replay footage(f430-suzuka) and was surprised to see just how 'untidy' the driving looked. The wheels were turned in much more than required and it just looked wrong. In reality, a neater driving style gets better lap times.

Also i feel the steering settings need to be stronger. I'm at the max strength setting for the G25 with power steering off, but it's still too light.

Comments?

The physics are fine alot better than the spec II physics and i think you have a problem with your wheel if its too light on maxium settings.

 

[RedOak]

Well, i would tend to agree that N tires are a bit wierd... but than again, have your friends and yourself tried to drive the cars in question within the speed limits; unto which the tires are designed to function? over 90 miles an hour... N tires shouldn't really be used over that...

 

[Kryz11]

The street tires are GT brand, they are not modeled after Goodyear, Yokohama, etc.. they are just GT brand. They just took N1-N3 how would the tires feel on average. Maybe Japanese Street tires are really that slippery too? I do not know.
I think they are realistic. Sure they need improvement. But hey its a game.

By the way What car did you drive with N3s?
In the online Manual, there is a TIRE recommendation for each car.
For cars like the Mustang, Use something like N3, for GTI Golf (older model) N2s, Cars like F430 use the S1. ETC, you get the idea.

By the way sure in real life track, the smoother the better, but you will be surprised when you push the cars, you can shave a lot of time off best lap times, that goes for in game and real life, only problem is that you're tires become more dull faster.

GT5P Physics are not embarrassing at all. They are one of best in any Console game.

 

[myke6699]

The problem is that your brother and his friend has yet to learn how to throttle and brake on the G25 (or any wheel/pedal combo). You have to be able to modulate the pedal on both the throttle and the brake but mainly you have to get used to the sensitivity of the pedal and so forth. We all know that it takes a certain amount of adjustment before one is equipped to drive any car in GT, Forza or LFS or any of Simbin's sim- it has less to do with the physics of the cars but more to do with adjusting to the limitation of the input device, in this case, the G25 wheel. I remember when I first picked up the wheel and the frustration I encoutered in the first few hours of trying to learn how to drive all over again. All this despite the fact that in real life I drive a Honda NSX.
While the R and S2 and S3 aren't as demanding especially at high speed and through turns, street tires require more attention to how much throttle is being placed. While I wouldn't say it's completely accurrate, Spec III treatment of N tires seems to be an improvement over the Spec II and definitely over Spec I.

 

[Dave A]

This is correct, it's gotten to a point where the input device is a bigger hinderance to reality than the games physics are. Ofcourse GT5's physics arn't spot on, but they are as close as any sim I've played. The issue I had when I started was that I couldn't get a feel for the accelerator and brake pedal to a good enough level to control the car well enough to drive fast. I still can't do it as well as I could in GT4 but that was far more forgiving a game overall. Bascially the pedals have almost no feel in them in my experience, and while that's less of an issiue in games that lean towards realism but arn't sims, in a true sim with traction control and ABS of it does cause problems for me. I've just accepted that after months of trying I'm having much more fun with a very low traction control setting and ABS on 1 when I'm driving something powerful.

Also you need to match the tyres to the car properly, not every car should be used with N tyres to simulate real life, the N tyres work fine for the economy cars and general sportscars but as you move to the powerful sports and supercars some are more accurate on the S1's. The manual tells you what they should be but you can also use your own head to find out what works with your wheel best. If your wheel doesn't give you enough modulation feedback to control the suggested tyre then there's no shame in trying the next tyre up to try to balance the level of control with the perofrmance the tyre will give you better.

 

[African Kat]

GT5P Physics are not embarrassing at all. They are one of best in any Console game.

Prologues physics are'nt embarrassingI meant that i was embarrassed by the fact that good track drivers could'nt match their real life track form, even though i bragged about Gt5's ability to recreate this.

I agree that GT games are unrivalled in physics, but are they exactly where they should be - i think it requires some adjustment to have more bite. Real street tyres( even the hardest compound)have more bite.

The physics are fine alot better than the spec II physics and i think you have a problem with your wheel if its too light on maxium settings.

They are better than specII but in my opinion the street tyres especially need more tinkering.
My wheel is operating as it should - when i use it with R Factor, the strength is more realistic.

I'm a GT fanatic and think Kazunori Yamauchi is God, but i also feel we need to be honest about some critisms so GT as a game can improve from its already excellent realism.

 

[Bleached]

You also have to take into account the fact that bravery isn't an issue in a video game, and also that the sensation of speed isn't the same. No one will take a vehicle to the absolute limits on a real track as soon as they will on GT, this leads to a sense of the car sliding earlier than it should. Also, on a real track, g forces and actual sensations of speed will tell how fast to take corners. On a real track it often seems like you are going much faster than you really are, in GT it is the opposite. Hope that makes sense.

 

[eight6er]

I have done a lot of track driving and found it difficult to get used to having g25 to drive in games at first, it's because IRL you can tell what to do when driving, by the feel of the g forces on you. In games you have to learn to pick these signals up on screen.

 

[Kryz11]

HAHA guys I was thinking. To send in a Street tire to PD office with note saying, "Study Guide" HAHA!

 

[BobElHat]

I agree with Bleached, I think the lack of a sense of speed is the main difference. It feels like you're going really slowly and slid off the track at low speed, but if you look at the speedo you see that you slid off because you tried to take a hairpin at 60mph. Even F1 cars have to go slower than that round tight corners. You can pull over 1g laterally on N3 tyres, but without your head and guts being pulled about and your inner ear telling you about the forces you body is feeling, it's never going to feel fast.

No matter what sim you put them in, I think they'd have gone flying off the track.

 

[Duke of Pendle]

You also have to take into account the fact that bravery isn't an issue in a video game, and also that the sensation of speed isn't the same. No one will take a vehicle to the absolute limits on a real track as soon as they will on GT, this leads to a sense of the car sliding earlier than it should. Also, on a real track, g forces and actual sensations of speed will tell how fast to take corners. On a real track it often seems like you are going much faster than you really are, in GT it is the opposite. Hope that makes sense.

That's it, right there 👍
You nailed it 100%

 

[DaddyVDUB]

I too agree with that. In a game you dont have the pucker factor. I'm not ashamed of GT5P while its not perfect go try Ferrari Challenge, You'll be back.

 

[Blitz187]

They requested street cars with street tyres, so i chose N3 tyres, and the result was embarassing for me. They struggled to find any consistency and veered off the track almost all the time. I was embarrassed because i always bragg to them about GT's realism and afterwards i realised how unrealistic GT5s' street tyre physics really are.

One friend commented that if street cars really handled like that in reality, that they would be death traps. At that moment i defended GT with gusto, as a true fan would, but later i realised that he was right. The street tyres on GT are too 'slippery' and although we gamers learn to contol the cars well, a good 'real life' driver should be able to make the transition to GT5 much much easier.

I think you shouldve chosen S tires which are equal to quality sports tires, because if Im not mistaken the N tires would resemble cheap discount tires in real life... and your comment about making the transition form real to GT5 is not entirely right... I have a friend and he is a MASTER at karting... super fast and also a good driver on the roads.... Now I let him try GT5 as well and he was also ALL over the place on the track and constantly crashing... and he commented that he's missing is a lot of the normal inputs you get from outside in a real car. What we dont realise is that the people who play GT5 a lot have adjusted to this and react to stuff visually and through the feel of the steering wheel... which is unorhtodox for someone who is use to driving in the real world... thats probably one of the reasons your friends were having so much trouble with it... once that transition is made they should also be able to drive like maniacs..

 

[Zer0]

Okay, being a GT fanatic, this is very hard for me to bring up but i feel it has to be said:

Prologues Physics on street tyres(N series)is ludacrously unrealistic

The other day i convinced my brother and some friends to try my gt5 out with the G25 steering. They are very competent drivers and some, together with me, take part in club events and track days on a regular basis, though i am the gamer of the bunch.

They requested street cars with street tyres, so i chose N3 tyres, and the result was embarassing for me. They struggled to find any consistency and veered off the track almost all the time. I was embarrassed because i always bragg to them about GT's realism and afterwards i realised how unrealistic GT5s' street tyre physics really are.

One friend commented that if street cars really handled like that in reality, that they would be death traps. At that moment i defended GT with gusto, as a true fan would, but later i realised that he was right. The street tyres on GT are too 'slippery' and although we gamers learn to contol the cars well, a good 'real life' driver should be able to make the transition to GT5 much much easier.

I sincerely hope PD update their physics even further so its closer to reality. I know some die hard GT fans would say that it would make it too easy but surely we'd rather have true to life physics.

Simulator Adaptation Syndroms ("SAS")
Simulator Adaptation Syndroms ("SAS"), is an issue with all simulators, not just driving simulators. The main cause of Simulator Adaptation Syndrome are system delays between the driver's command the the response of the simulator. In effect the brain, referencing driving a real vehicle, expects the simulator's response to be the same as a car, the greater the deviation the greater the "adaption burden" on the brain.

If the deviation is large, the driver may experience symptoms of headaches, motion sickness, disorientation, etc due to SAS although this is very dependent on the individual. Likewise the simulator "cues" also have an effect, that is some individuals will experience discomfort due to a simulator not having motion cues, where others may not have a problem with such simulators. Some individuals will show high tolerance to visual system delays, where others may not.

The "Adaptation" in SAS relates to the brain's accepting these simulator's disparities relative to a real vehicle and thus slowly changing it's reference point to that of the simulation. Thus with gradual introduction to the simulator environment the brain will slowly adapt and the negative effects of SAS (headaches, motion sickness, disorientation, etc) will be greatly reduced. Ironically, once a person spends several hours in a driving simulator a real vehicle can evoke SAS again however the adaption time is greatly reduced - The brain quickly "remembers" and "resets" the the real vehicle reference point.

As an example of SAS timing, when airline pilots go through regular simulator training they are not allowed to fly an airplane for 1 week in order to allow their brains to "forget" the SAS reference point induced by the simulator.

To sum up, there is no such thing as "Simulator Sickness", there is however a physiological response to simulators called "SAS" which can result in headaches, motion sickness, and disorientation. By minimizing the simulator's system delays, rendering all the cues economically possible, and slowly introducing susceptible individuals, the effects of SAS can be mitigated.

The primary reason for the $54 million dollar price tag of the National Advanced Driving Simulator was to reduce SAS the the maximum amount possible. The National Advanced Driving Simulator is capable of rendering, including full motion cues, a driver passing a vehicle on a 2 lane highway from the beginning of the pass to the end (thus it's enormous motion base).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_simulator

Not about headaches but adaptation.

Made the non gamers test with another PC sim and you will obtain the same disastrous results.

 

[SavageWhiteDude]

You also have to take into account the fact that bravery isn't an issue in a video game, and also that the sensation of speed isn't the same. No one will take a vehicle to the absolute limits on a real track as soon as they will on GT, this leads to a sense of the car sliding earlier than it should. Also, on a real track, g forces and actual sensations of speed will tell how fast to take corners. On a real track it often seems like you are going much faster than you really are, in GT it is the opposite. Hope that makes sense.

Exactly. Sometimes my car will be getting loose around a turn and I will think "WTF!? How *&$#ing slow do I have to take this turn!?" Then I realize that I am going around a hairpin at speeds that will get you pulled over on some interstates in my area...

 

[African Kat]

You also have to take into account the fact that bravery isn't an issue in a video game, and also that the sensation of speed isn't the same. No one will take a vehicle to the absolute limits on a real track as soon as they will on GT, this leads to a sense of the car sliding earlier than it should. Also, on a real track, g forces and actual sensations of speed will tell how fast to take corners. On a real track it often seems like you are going much faster than you really are, in GT it is the opposite. Hope that makes sense.

Hmmm...yes, you're right. This does make perfect sense to me, although would'nt you say GT4 has more of a sense of connection with the tyres.

With Prologue, take an RX8 with N3 tyres(which represent high quality street tyres) and try exiting a slow corner while searching for traction. The in game car struggles to get traction even with the throttle less than halfway down, while in real life only harsh treatment of the throttle would give that type of reaction.

I'm not ashamed of GT5P while its not perfect go try Ferrari Challenge, You'll be back.

I love gt too and because its so close to my heart, i want it to be perfect i guess
Theres no doubt that GT is king, i've recently made a huge loss by buying other racing games while waiting for the complete GT5. Those games did'nt hold my attention for more than a day

 

[Famine]

I have done a lot of track driving and found it difficult to get used to having g25 to drive in games at first, it's because IRL you can tell what to do when driving, by the feel of the g forces on you. In games you have to learn to pick these signals up on screen.

This.

I'll also add that "street tyres" are different brand-to-brand in real life too. I use £40 rubber on my cars (except the one with the huge wheels, which has the same tyre but in a bigger, more expensive size), and the ones I've picked are ones which, from experience, have lovely loading and grip characteristics, a lot of grip, and very progressive and predictable slip. Similar tyres from a different brand that I had on previously have quite poor loading and grip characteristics, less grip and a highly unpredictable and snap slip. Both were street tyes at the same temperatures, pressures and usage on the same car and on the same roads - but one brand load up nicely, grip forever and then slide away gradually, while the other loads up soggily, runs out of grip quickly and then completely loses it.


So imagine your club/track drivers use the first type of tyre on their street cars. I know I would. Now imagine PD simulate the second type in GT5P. Combined with the fact that your friends aren't used to games, aren't used to game wheels and can't use their sense of balance and motion to detect grip and slip on individual wheels, relying only on their vision, sound and whatever the force feedback is telling them, and you can bet they'll tank into corners 20% faster than they could in real life, spear off and then say the physics are wrong and if cars were like that in the real world they'll be death traps.

That's not to say the physics are perfect but if you can adapt your driving for games - which can never simulate the whole gamut of signals and sensory inputs you get in a real car to tell you what's going on - you'll find that the margins between the real world and the gaming world are narrowing all the time.

 

[nissman]

Maybe you should show this clip from RudiRaser to your brother and friends.
The race is on N-3 tyres Fuji 550pp expert:tup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXniYdmnIqw&eurl=https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112549&page=13
Just shows how the best GT5p gamers do it.

 

[Blitz187]

This.

I'll also add that "street tyres" are different brand-to-brand in real life too. I use £40 rubber on my cars (except the one with the huge wheels, which has the same tyre but in a bigger, more expensive size), and the ones I've picked are ones which, from experience, have lovely loading and grip characteristics, a lot of grip, and very progressive and predictable slip. Similar tyres from a different brand that I had on previously have quite poor loading and grip characteristics, less grip and a highly unpredictable and snap slip. Both were street tyes at the same temperatures, pressures and usage on the same car and on the same roads - but one brand load up nicely, grip forever and then slide away gradually, while the other loads up soggily, runs out of grip quickly and then completely loses it.


So imagine your club/track drivers use the first type of tyre on their street cars. I know I would. Now imagine PD simulate the second type in GT5P. Combined with the fact that your friends aren't used to games, aren't used to game wheels and can't use their sense of balance and motion to detect grip and slip on individual wheels, relying only on their vision, sound and whatever the force feedback is telling them, and you can bet they'll tank into corners 20% faster than they could in real life, spear off and then say the physics are wrong and if cars were like that in the real world they'll be death traps.

That's not to say the physics are perfect but if you can adapt your driving for games - which can never simulate the whole gamut of signals and sensory inputs you get in a real car to tell you what's going on - you'll find that the margins between the real world and the gaming world are narrowing all the time.

Exactly what I was trying to say except worded better with an example! 👍

 

[unv412]

the lack of speed sensation and latteral G all conspire against your mates enjoying the game. Every decent driver that has ever been introduced to G25 + GT5p spears off the track because of these reasons. Also the fact that they dont know the track and that they havent had the leed time associated with having mastered GT1,GT2,GT3,GT4 and GT5p (7 or more years!!!!!). Get them to watch the Speedo and see how fast they are going will help alot.

As far as wheel movements in the video, most of quicker laps IRL made are with a little understeer......is that what you meant by the steering angal?????

 

[African Kat]

As far as wheel movements in the video, most of quicker laps IRL made are with a little understeer......is that what you meant by the steering angal?????

Yes, thats what i mean. The wheel angle looks wrong ( the steering seems to be turned too much).

It would be interesting to see a real life flying lap video of a powerful rear wheel drive on street or even intermediate(semi-slick) tyres...I have a feeling the wheel angle( turn in) would'nt look so exaggerated.