GT5 Sound Thread

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i think this is gt series weakness the sound, it is not realistic especially the breaks, skids, and crashes and engine sound. I hope they improve on that, because along with the damage effect, and grass and skid mark, and AI; bias reviewers will nitpick on this especially Edge and GT.
 
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Brakes? Did you see how the tyres squeal in every Inside Line vehicle braking test?
Makes me wonder if people here have ever driven a car hard...

Infact Prologue has a scraping sound instead now, which is probably not that realistic, if you consider the above fact :)

3 different cars - same tyre squeal while braking and cornering...

 
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Fine, but, latching onto "no difference between a 2 channel stereo TV and a 5.1 sound system" just shows you are one stubborn individual, because you know full-well that people are talking about the accuracy/authenticity of the sound.

Having said that, all things being equal, a stereo/2.1 system can sound just as good as a 5.1 system. The only difference being the level of immersion that you get from a 5.1 system.


Seriously, I know I'm perpetuating things here, but this debate is getting stupid now.

  1. Yes, the quality and number of speakers does, to a point, increase the actual sound quality that you hear, and the level of immersion. A $300 all-in-one home theater is going to sound much better than stereo speakers in a TV, just as a $3000 5.1 system is going to sound much better than a $300 5.1 system.
  2. No matter how good your audio system is, if the input source is inaccurate, the output is going to reflect that. If an F430 sounds more like a hair dryer, that's how things are for everybody, just that some people will hear a better quality, more immersive hair dryer than others.
Nothing more really needs to be said on the matter, unless people feel the need to boast about how much they have spent on their audio systems and how they are able to transform the sound of a dog barking to the sound of a cat purring.

Well, just to add my perspective once again, I'm using Creative SB580s - not exactly audio nirvana, but they have decent enough frequency response for my purposes, and go loud enough to annoy my neighbours :D I also have a pair of "studio-quality" over-ear headphones with 30 mm drivers.

The difference in fidelity is unquestionably in favour of the headphones. However, when it comes to surround immersion in a game (a synthetic soundscape), the 5.1 setup wins, even if I use the Stereo-3D positioning built in to X-Fi soundcards in conjunction with the headphones.

Being that we are binaural creatures, it is safe to assume (and indeed, easily proven) that two speakers (or a pair of headphones) are sufficient to fully recreate any soundscape. Like most things, this is easily done with a good quality recording (quality in terms of fidelity, and in terms of microphone location etc.)

Unfortunately, a game is having to render the sounds in 3D space, so clever tricks are used to make the sound seem locational - this is where positional surround (i.e. a 5.1 system) can seem more immersive, as the sound is clearly coming from a certain direction. The trickery used in a Stereo-3D algorithm is convincing, but still odd (I suppose much like 3D-TV, though I've not experienced it for myself) - what you lose in immersion, though, you generally gain in positional accuracy. That is to say, it is easier to pinpoint sounds, as there is less distortion from the superposition of sound from the various speakers.

Well, that is my experience, anyway.

Sure, I know what sound is! :sly: It's the low, bass frequencies that you tend to "feel", and somehow even through a decent subwoofer, that alone cannot replicate the acoustic feeling of being inside a real car with a meaty exhaust note!

I really don't want to be a pedant, and it was implicit in your previous post, but I feel I should point out that you feel all frequencies, both within, and outside of, the audible spectrum (at both ends - i.e. very high and very low frequencies). This is why having your volume up nice and loud sometimes makes the difference - not to mention, some higher-than-standard-power systems don't give the full frequency gamut at low gains :dopey:



And whoever said they can hear each individual cylinder either needs their brain testing, or they should sign up for special research - that's quite an ability!

Allow me to elaborate: a four-stroke single-cylinder engine no longer sounds like a discrete (i.e., separately distinguishable) set of detonations at around 1200 rpm (~10 Hz - though this varies wildly according to the individual, the nature of the sound "bite", the pulse width etc. etc. - 10 Hz, or 100 ms, is somewhat of a "norm" for the cutoff).
What you are then hearing is the particular interactions of the underlying waveform that makes the discrete sound itself (see granular synthesis)

A V6, then, is only "discrete" below 200 - 400 rpm, depending on the exhaust routing. For reference, most automatic rifles discharge at a rate just either side of this 10 Hz limit: 500 - 800 rounds per minute.
 
Well, just to add my perspective once again, I'm using Creative SB580s - not exactly audio nirvana, but they have decent enough frequency response for my purposes, and go loud enough to annoy my neighbours :D I also have a pair of "studio-quality" over-ear headphones with 30 mm drivers.

The difference in fidelity is unquestionably in favour of the headphones. However, when it comes to surround immersion in a game (a synthetic soundscape), the 5.1 setup wins, even if I use the Stereo-3D positioning built in to X-Fi soundcards in conjunction with the headphones.

Being that we are binaural creatures, it is safe to assume (and indeed, easily proven) that two speakers (or a pair of headphones) are sufficient to fully recreate any soundscape. Like most things, this is easily done with a good quality recording (quality in terms of fidelity, and in terms of microphone location etc.)

Unfortunately, a game is having to render the sounds in 3D space, so clever tricks are used to make the sound seem locational - this is where positional surround (i.e. a 5.1 system) can seem more immersive, as the sound is clearly coming from a certain direction. The trickery used in a Stereo-3D algorithm is convincing, but still odd (I suppose much like 3D-TV, though I've not experienced it for myself) - what you lose in immersion, though, you generally gain in positional accuracy. That is to say, it is easier to pinpoint sounds, as there is less distortion from the superposition of sound from the various speakers.

Well, that is my experience, anyway.
I'm sure you are right - if I listen to music through headphones, it's about as close to being "in" the music as you possibly can be, but the same music through my 5.1 system just sounds "wider" if you know what I mean. Thing is, I don't play games through headphones. Never have, never will.

I really don't want to be a pedant, and it was implicit in your previous post, but I feel I should point out that you feel all frequencies, both within, and outside of, the audible spectrum (at both ends - i.e. very high and very low frequencies). This is why having your volume up nice and loud sometimes makes the difference - not to mention, some higher-than-standard-power systems don't give the full frequency gamut at low gains :dopey:
When you play music, the one thing that people feel most is the bass as it resonates in the body. That is what I meant, not that you don't feel any other frequencies other than low ones. Of course different frequencies will be felt as they resonate to varying degrees in different parts of the body, but bass, in my experience, is usually the most pronounced (in general music and film soundtracks, not talking about targeted sound).

I know that audio is a very complex area, with all kinds of interactions and damage that can be done to hearing at frequencies well above what we can actually hear, but I didn't want this to turn into a physics lesson!
 
I know that audio is a very complex area, with all kinds of interactions and damage that can be done to hearing at frequencies well above what we can actually hear, but I didn't want this to turn into a physics lesson!

It wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, I was just using your posts as context 👍
Bass notes are definitely more noticeable in general (they require a lot of power though), but having been to a drag-racing event I can tell you it's not the only thing that stands out, and I was more worried about my squishy bits than my ears!

I think it's safe to say that the average person knows more about how their vision works than how their hearing works. That said, the physics are simple enough if you stick with an introduction, and the majority of the important stuff is psychological anyway (which is presently way beyond anyone's "understanding!") ;)

I definitely get what you mean with the 5.1 music thing. By the way, I find that headphones are great for first person shooters, or for late-night / non-disruptive gaming in general :dopey:
 
Well, just to add my perspective once again, I'm using Creative SB580s - not exactly audio nirvana, but they have decent enough frequency response for my purposes, and go loud enough to annoy my neighbours :D I also have a pair of "studio-quality" over-ear headphones with 30 mm drivers.

The difference in fidelity is unquestionably in favour of the headphones. However, when it comes to surround immersion in a game (a synthetic soundscape), the 5.1 setup wins, even if I use the Stereo-3D positioning built in to X-Fi soundcards in conjunction with the headphones.

Being that we are binaural creatures, it is safe to assume (and indeed, easily proven) that two speakers (or a pair of headphones) are sufficient to fully recreate any soundscape. Like most things, this is easily done with a good quality recording (quality in terms of fidelity, and in terms of microphone location etc.)

Unfortunately, a game is having to render the sounds in 3D space, so clever tricks are used to make the sound seem locational - this is where positional surround (i.e. a 5.1 system) can seem more immersive, as the sound is clearly coming from a certain direction. The trickery used in a Stereo-3D algorithm is convincing, but still odd (I suppose much like 3D-TV, though I've not experienced it for myself) - what you lose in immersion, though, you generally gain in positional accuracy. That is to say, it is easier to pinpoint sounds, as there is less distortion from the superposition of sound from the various speakers.

Well, that is my experience, anyway.
Maybe it's of interest for some ... there are a few basic mechanisms of human hearing that determine the direction of sounds:

  • the differential delay between the ears
  • volume differences between the ears
  • the tonal coloration of the sound
Since all three of those effects can be generated artificially, the idea is that a headphone can deliver perfectly directional sounds when the signal is run through a processor which generates these effects. The only problem and the reason why this doesn't really work is that human hearing is based on these effects, but as always, there is more to it when you go into the very details. Just imagine that our hearing has developed over tens of thousands of years, and directional hearing once was a life-saving gift that kept us from being caught by the bigger stuff. So being able to precisely locate the source of a sound in an instant was extremely important, which shows through the quality of our directional hearing. Therefore, our ears can not be tricked so easily, which is why a set of individual speakers to date still is the only source that will give us an actual surround sound feel. Some artifical surround systems, when used properly and with the right source signal, come close, but nothing beats real surround as of yet.

Interestingly, in GT5 Prologue (and even in GT4 if I remember correctly), Polyphony Digital gave every car discrete sources of sound around the car instead of simply mixing some sounds together for every view. In the virtual car, they placed every sound source where you can locate the sound in real life: engine under the bonnet, exhaust note at the exhaust tip, tyres at the four corners. I'm not sure about the wind noise, it might be spread over the front half of the car.
Anyway, the idea is that whichever position the player chooses - chase view, bonnet view, bird view, cockpit view - he will automatically hear every sound from where it should be coming as well as with the correct volume (given they programmed it properly). These directional effects are clearly audible with a properly configured 5.1/7.1 speaker system.

So they have what it takes, and they do care about the sound. The only thing I wish for is a bit more "AC/DC", if you catch my drift.
 
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If there is a car in GT5 that sounds better than my twin screw supercharged Gallardo in Forza 3 then I'm going to be really excited.
 
It wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, I was just using your posts as context 👍
Bass notes are definitely more noticeable in general (they require a lot of power though), but having been to a drag-racing event I can tell you it's not the only thing that stands out, and I was more worried about my squishy bits than my ears!

I think it's safe to say that the average person knows more about how their vision works than how their hearing works. That said, the physics are simple enough if you stick with an introduction, and the majority of the important stuff is psychological anyway (which is presently way beyond anyone's "understanding!") ;)

I definitely get what you mean with the 5.1 music thing. By the way, I find that headphones are great for first person shooters, or for late-night / non-disruptive gaming in general :dopey:
Yep, I'd say a lot of how how we perceive sound is to do with our own experiences and likes/dislikes.

As for the late night gaming, I'm lucky in that my gaming den is at the end of our house, which is long and thin, with two rooms and a big hallway between them 👍 If I have my way I'll be moving even further out over the garage so I can be totally separate from the house and use my old room as a master bedroom again (yes, I was that demanding when we moved in - I took the largest bedroom!)
 
Yep, I'd say a lot of how how we perceive sound is to do with our own experiences and likes/dislikes.

As for the late night gaming, I'm lucky in that my gaming den is at the end of our house, which is long and thin, with two rooms and a big hallway between them 👍 If I have my way I'll be moving even further out over the garage so I can be totally separate from the house and use my old room as a master bedroom again (yes, I was that demanding when we moved in - I took the largest bedroom!)

Great info guys. It just Sucks that some people feel the sounds sucks. I can understand some of the cars sounding weird, but in all GT5P sounds great and i know GT5 will be even better 👍
 
Great info guys. It just Sucks that some people feel the sounds sucks. I can understand some of the cars sounding weird, but in all GT5P sounds great and i know GT5 will be even better 👍
That's exactly my feeling too JDMKING13, even though I know that the cars may not sound totally authentic in GT5P, I know that they still sound great through my audio system. Just a shame I couldn't run the Time Trial through it, but I'm sure that as you say, GT5 will improve things even more.
 
That's exactly my feeling too JDMKING13, even though I know that the cars may not sound totally authentic in GT5P, I know that they still sound great through my audio system. Just a shame I couldn't run the Time Trial through it, but I'm sure that as you say, GT5 will improve things even more.

Aww man I wish you got a chance to hear the demo it was really good man 👍 Im driving the Skyline 350GT right now on Suzuka, and TokyoDrift if you have time PLEASE go to Suzuka and on your second lap before you hit that small tunnel, the camera during replay mode gets real close to the car. This is a great opportunity to hear the sounds GT has to offer. The camera angle stays close until you get to the 1st turn after the small tunnel 👍
 
Aww man I wish you got a chance to hear the demo it was really good man 👍 Im driving the Skyline 350GT right now on Suzuka, and TokyoDrift if you have time PLEASE go to Suzuka and on your second lap before you hit that small tunnel, the camera during replay mode gets real close to the car. This is a great opportunity to hear the sounds GT has to offer. The camera angle stays close until you get to the 1st turn after the small tunnel 👍
Cool, maybe I'll dig out my copy of Prologue and check that out. Yeah, it's a shame I didn't get to hear the demo through my new system, but I'll hear the full game soon enough ;)
 
Do you mean that little tunnel without appropriate echo, guys? :ill:

I know this game really well and I like sound system of the game even in Prologue. But I hate the work with samples - badly performed recording in the beginning, then not exactly well and distinctively replicated sound, simply not enough samples through whole rpm range. As well as changing engine sound along gas pedal position in the game.

So few mistakes and so badly it sounds then, even in the best audio engine of the racing game.
 
Aww man I wish you got a chance to hear the demo it was really good man 👍 Im driving the Skyline 350GT right now on Suzuka, and TokyoDrift if you have time PLEASE go to Suzuka and on your second lap before you hit that small tunnel, the camera during replay mode gets real close to the car. This is a great opportunity to hear the sounds GT has to offer. The camera angle stays close until you get to the 1st turn after the small tunnel 👍

I always find I've set my audio level too high at that point... :dopey:

Do you mean that little tunnel without appropriate echo, guys? :ill:

I know this game really well and I like sound system of the game even in Prologue. But I hate the work with samples - badly performed recording in the beginning, then not exactly well and distinctively replicated sound, simply not enough samples through whole rpm range. As well as changing engine sound along gas pedal position in the game.

So few mistakes and so badly it sounds then, even in the best audio engine of the racing game.

The engine sound does change with throttle position, rpm, ascending / descending etc. It's just not quite distinct enough, mostly because there's no real volume change.

It doesn't sound that bad, really.
 
I stumbled on this site a while ago. I'm not sure if I believe these are all synthesized sounds. They sound too good.

http://www.sonory.org/examples.html

So I know this was posted like 10 pages back but I never saw it before...Do they use there sounds for anything?? That's quite impressive for not taking any samples...if we could only get engine sounds close to this depth in GT....I honestly think the other sounds PD does are just fine....wind is fine...doppler effects in replays are already awesome...just get the tones right!!

GT5 TT is a step in a good direction as long as they can get that close with the sounds for all the other cars.
 
@ RacingFreak2k3: Apparently they have ties with developers; for what I know not, but either way, their technology is very promising indeed! Hope to see this stuff making its way into games - "Indy" games will benefit particularly, since you can generate huge numbers of unique sounds for tuned cars, just by fiddling with some numbers! 👍


Mildly on topic: I think I've just noticed a bug in GT5:P. :eek: The procedural exhaust-tip and intake hiss seem to be calculated wrongly for "multi-tipped" engines.

A key example is the S2 Elise, with the twin-tipped exhaust - it sounds overly noisy / "windy" at high revs.
Even worse is the Ferrari 512 BB, with its quad-tip exhaust and four, triple-barrel carburettors whistling away...

What I think they do is calculate the hiss sounds, per tip, according to the engine speed, engine capacity and tip dimensions.
However, it seems they fail to divide the total gas flow across all the tips and each tip ends up being fed the whole lot...


When they stack up all the individual tip sounds to make the final mix, not only is it roughly the wrong pitch / "shape" (because the flow is too high per tip), but it's also far too loud (because the higher flow is automatically louder).

So to compensate, they tweak the parameters, but it ends up less than satisfactory for single tipped exhausts etc. as well. The exhaust and intake sounds, whilst impressive, do often sound a bit odd and too heavily mixed... - it's obviously not the only culprit for "oddness" in GT5:P's sound, but it's really easy to fix and will probably sound fairly awesome once it is fixed! :dopey:
 
I watching youtube videos last night and i notice very clearly that car sound IN COCKPIT different (less "driving" and agresive) than outside the car.Strangely most of the games have "cockpit" sound outside the car...
And WOW, some Shift and Forza sounds are "almost" identical to the real in cockpit view!!!
(very precise samples).
But overall GT5TT sound is more real when you pickup at least headphones.Better on technical side.Stereo image is superb, no comparison. (you hear all the tires, engine exactly where it was).
PD "just" need to re sample all the cars since GT4...
 
3 different cars - same tyre squeal while braking and cornering...
Only just got around to watching these.

Similar tyre squeal, not same tyre squeal. After all, they are different cars, different weights, different tyres etc. In Gran Turismo I find that the pitch of the squeal is often too high and often kicks in at silly (read, low) speeds. I think they improved things as Prologue got its updates, but for me it still needs a bit of work. Sure it's a minor thing, but it's the kind of sound that after a while can get very annoying if its not right, as opposed to adding to the experience.
 
Only just got around to watching these.

Similar tyre squeal, not same tyre squeal. After all, they are different cars, different weights, different tyres etc. In Gran Turismo I find that the pitch of the squeal is often too high and often kicks in at silly (read, low) speeds. I think they improved things as Prologue got its updates, but for me it still needs a bit of work. Sure it's a minor thing, but it's the kind of sound that after a while can get very annoying if its not right, as opposed to adding to the experience.

Well you have some people complaining now that they can't hear the brakes working in Prologue, due to this low tyre scratching sound it has instead now, which is usually masked by the engine sound. So they over brake causing understeer

PD can't win! :)

The tyres squeal under heavy braking, due to the same forces at work when cornering hard, and don't when braking light. That's the point I was making. Most people brake hard in GT, hence the noise. So people complain about said noise. Brake lightly and you have minimal noise, just like how most people brake in real life, lightly...
 
I will agree with one thing, PD cannot win! They will never be able to please everybody.
Even themselves.But it's a heart of a genius.Perfection.And perfection has no limit so they used to be always angry after release.I'm a professional musician and understand them perfectly...
 
Even themselves.But it's a heart of a genius.Perfection.And perfection has no limit so they used to be always angry after release.I'm a professional musician and understand them perfectly...
I was a programmer/developer myself, and am also a bit of a perfectionist. However, I also know that constantly shifting the goalposts is not the right way to do things. There is always something else that can be done better, something else that can be added to improve things even more. Not knowing when to stop is a sign you actually have no idea where it is you want to end up. Being angry at your own release is also not healthy, and that anger should be channeled into enthusiasm and inspiration.

Sure, when I had a customer paying me to develop something, when they could have gone to any number of other developers, and who has very fixed expectations on content and delivery, I was forced to discipline myself. Developing a high profile game like Kaz is doing is clearly a bit different, and he can put things back if he likes because we as paying customers have very little choice in the matter if we want to play GT5. It's not like we can go elsewhere and have somebody else develop it faster and embrace DLC for updates.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with being a perfectionist, but when you are an indecisive perfectionist, you'll never be happy with anything, and ultimately that filters down to us, the fans, who wait and wait and wait... It's not like he's just doing it for the love of it - it's a business at the end of the day, and it needs to make money.
 
it_are_a_fact.png

hihihi:D

Seriously people, is this the best aguement you can come up with? I know primary school kids who could come up with better than that.

Bottom line is this, I am pleased with the sounds I get when I play, you are not, thats your loss, maybe you should invest in a set of ear plugs?

Anyway, it's much too childish in here for me, I'm off to listen to some "music" by Ferrari through my super dooper sound system, you have a nice day now.......... ;)
 
Damn those sounds are impressive. GT5 should have that sound engine.

edit: i mean this: http://www.sonory.org/examples.html

I don't mean to put you down, I just want to point out a minor inaccuracy...
The Sonory system is some sort of pre-computation (which I suppose you could call an "engine", but it doesn't run in real time and doesn't even need to be on the same system) which generates audio samples.

These samples can then be used in any way you like, and in any audio engine (provided it supports the format). The sound engine is the part that takes all the sounds (samples, or synth'd) and applies all the necessary "effects" like volume changes, doppler, 3D positioning etc. etc. before the sound device (hardware) mixes it all together, or applies effects of its own e.g. canned reverb. The key point, though, is that this latter stuff is done in real time, as you play the game.

Much the same as a graphics engine uses textures applied to polygons at a given position in 3D space, and applies (via the hardware) diffuse, specular and other shading techniques before it gets passed to the frame buffer.
There are many sophisticated ways of "generating" textures from scratch, and Sonory's method is analogous in that respect (samples = textures) - at least until it becomes possible in realtime.

Sonory are not selling an audio engine, so much as they are selling a service to create audio samples based on information you give them, so it seems. Their demonstrations are running on an audio engine based on the FMod sound library.
 
I was a programmer/developer myself, and am also a bit of a perfectionist. However, I also know that constantly shifting the goalposts is not the right way to do things. There is always something else that can be done better, something else that can be added to improve things even more. Not knowing when to stop is a sign you actually have no idea where it is you want to end up. Being angry at your own release is also not healthy, and that anger should be channeled into enthusiasm and inspiration.

Sure, when I had a customer paying me to develop something, when they could have gone to any number of other developers, and who has very fixed expectations on content and delivery, I was forced to discipline myself. Developing a high profile game like Kaz is doing is clearly a bit different, and he can put things back if he likes because we as paying customers have very little choice in the matter if we want to play GT5. It's not like we can go elsewhere and have somebody else develop it faster and embrace DLC for updates.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with being a perfectionist, but when you are an indecisive perfectionist, you'll never be happy with anything, and ultimately that filters down to us, the fans, who wait and wait and wait... It's not like he's just doing it for the love of it - it's a business at the end of the day, and it needs to make money.

You right man.I feel like i am a "teen maximalist" in that question.:crazy:

Its funny but if I do work that i love and want it good i'm usually late with this.But after that all ppl appriciate my work and im feel good.
Maybe (like you said) setting goals right is answer to this.For me it's doing what you love AND make it your own way.If it's your way and you love it - quality will be good.But it's about non-commecial things at most.PD have resposibillity.That's whole new story i think.

Off-topic here! :sly:
 
Not really off-topic at all... I think you're right; if you want quality, you'd better be prepared to wait for it.

Commercialism isn't about quality, it's about money. I think it's good that Kaz can take his time in what is increasingly a commercially driven industry, including any disappointments we may get. Just think how disappointed we'd be if he rushed it ;)
 
I don't mean to put you down, I just want to point out a minor inaccuracy...
The Sonory system is some sort of pre-computation (which I suppose you could call an "engine", but it doesn't run in real time and doesn't even need to be on the same system) which generates audio samples.

These samples can then be used in any way you like, and in any audio engine (provided it supports the format). The sound engine is the part that takes all the sounds (samples, or synth'd) and applies all the necessary "effects" like volume changes, doppler, 3D positioning etc. etc. before the sound device (hardware) mixes it all together, or applies effects of its own e.g. canned reverb. The key point, though, is that this latter stuff is done in real time, as you play the game.

Much the same as a graphics engine uses textures applied to polygons at a given position in 3D space, and applies (via the hardware) diffuse, specular and other shading techniques before it gets passed to the frame buffer.
There are many sophisticated ways of "generating" textures from scratch, and Sonory's method is analogous in that respect (samples = textures) - at least until it becomes possible in realtime.

Sonory are not selling an audio engine, so much as they are selling a service to create audio samples based on information you give them, so it seems. Their demonstrations are running on an audio engine based on the FMod sound library.
Nice overview there 👍 Very nice audio indeed as well.

@alucard0712, you are right, if you do something you love, it's often difficult to accept anything less than perfection (whatever that is), and on a non-commercial basis, that's fine. Just plug away until you are happy! When customers and money are involved, you need to learn to manage, and at least meet their expectations, as well as producing quality work that you are happy to put your name to. You can only achieve this (reliably) by defining the goals up-front, and planning things properly. Clearly this has not happened at PD, as you can see by they way things went from Vision GT > GTHD > Prologue > GT5, along with talk of "everything being DLC", to "now everything will ship on the disc"...
 
Firstly, thanks :)

Secondly, I think PD are fine the way they are doing things - they handle the artistry, as it were, whilst Sony manage the commerce side of things.

Nothing you said was incorrect, of course; I mean it's just that Sony must know what they're doing, right? :scared:
 
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