NCRthree
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- 1,797
- Virginia
- ncrthree/GTP_ncrthree
I just saw this gt5 tire reference guide myself and wanted the same thing.
Found that Road&Track has their road tests in a database online. I imagine other car rags do too.
GT5 Tire Model
- Thread starter machschnel
- 66 comments
- 17,682 views
I just saw this gt5 tire reference guide myself and wanted the same thing.
Found that Road&Track has their road tests in a database online. I imagine other car rags do too.
- 31
- Munich
- liated_mi_lefuet
I tried to draw the torque-curve of my G27 in GT5 into Scaff's chart:
For further explanation:
I drove some oversteer manoevers with a FR-car. There is no torque around the middle position of the wheel but as soon as you have resistance in steering it will be at a quite high and constant level. If I use percent instead of Nm I have a kind of torque baseline for all stearing manoevers which is around 80% for the G27 in my feeling. When I speed up in a curve without changing the turning radius I notice a further climb up of torque to the maximum of 100% (somewhere around 0.5 g). The difference of 20% is not that much but at least there is some kind of gradient. When the car finally loses grip the torque just falls straight down without any noticeable gradient. After that the torque jumps up to 80% again to virtually represent the regained grip or just keeps dropped when the car circles out of the track with zero friction between tires and ground.
I tried a FF-car too and had the feeling, that there is only a rectangular function without any climb of torque when raising lateral force during curve speed up. Can anybody confirm that? I'm also missing reduced torque during understeer. My G27 just keeps the self aligning torque baseline during understeer. That's really a weak point in GT5.
It would be interesting to know if there is a different behaviour for the different wheels which are supported by GT5. Perhaps some Thrustmaster and Fanatec owners could describe their torque behaviour and try to paint it into Scaff's chart?
Some additional comments about slick tires:
In the real world slicks need a certain amount of slippage (7 to 10%) to show their full potential (despite the expectations of laymen of glue-like sticking on the tarmac). For that reason driving on slicks is much more challenging than driving on road tires because you have to reach the 'Race Driver'-zone in Scaff's chart to unfold the potential of slicks. Also with slicks the transition path between grip and loss of grip is quite narrow. Actually it comes close to the behaviour of the tires in GT5. The problem is: All compounds in GT5 show the same behaviour, they only differ in grip-level, which of course is quite wrong as Scaff correctly states. There should be a noticable gradient between grip and loss of grip for street tires compared to racing tires.
For further explanation:
I drove some oversteer manoevers with a FR-car. There is no torque around the middle position of the wheel but as soon as you have resistance in steering it will be at a quite high and constant level. If I use percent instead of Nm I have a kind of torque baseline for all stearing manoevers which is around 80% for the G27 in my feeling. When I speed up in a curve without changing the turning radius I notice a further climb up of torque to the maximum of 100% (somewhere around 0.5 g). The difference of 20% is not that much but at least there is some kind of gradient. When the car finally loses grip the torque just falls straight down without any noticeable gradient. After that the torque jumps up to 80% again to virtually represent the regained grip or just keeps dropped when the car circles out of the track with zero friction between tires and ground.
I tried a FF-car too and had the feeling, that there is only a rectangular function without any climb of torque when raising lateral force during curve speed up. Can anybody confirm that? I'm also missing reduced torque during understeer. My G27 just keeps the self aligning torque baseline during understeer. That's really a weak point in GT5.
It would be interesting to know if there is a different behaviour for the different wheels which are supported by GT5. Perhaps some Thrustmaster and Fanatec owners could describe their torque behaviour and try to paint it into Scaff's chart?
Some additional comments about slick tires:
In the real world slicks need a certain amount of slippage (7 to 10%) to show their full potential (despite the expectations of laymen of glue-like sticking on the tarmac). For that reason driving on slicks is much more challenging than driving on road tires because you have to reach the 'Race Driver'-zone in Scaff's chart to unfold the potential of slicks. Also with slicks the transition path between grip and loss of grip is quite narrow. Actually it comes close to the behaviour of the tires in GT5. The problem is: All compounds in GT5 show the same behaviour, they only differ in grip-level, which of course is quite wrong as Scaff correctly states. There should be a noticable gradient between grip and loss of grip for street tires compared to racing tires.
- 4,182
- Ottawa
I tried to draw the torque-curve of my G27 in GT5 into Scaff's chart:
For further explanation:
I drove some oversteer manoevers with a FR-car. There is no torque around the middle position of the wheel but as soon as you have resistance in steering it will be at a quite high and constant level. If I use percent instead of Nm I have a kind of torque baseline for all stearing manoevers which is around 80% for the G27 in my feeling. When I speed up in a curve without changing the turning radius I notice a further climb up of torque to the maximum of 100% (somewhere around 0.5 g). The difference of 20% is not that much but at least there is some kind of gradient. When the car finally loses grip the torque just falls straight down without any noticeable gradient. After that the torque jumps up to 80% again to virtually represent the regained grip or just keeps dropped when the car circles out of the track with zero friction between tires and ground.
.
When you did this, was FF strenght setting in gt5 at 10? I have notice an increase in sensibility, easier to feel the feedback when I went from a setting of 10 to a setting of 7. I understand it as if it is a 10 ( maximum ) then when you are sollicitating at the maximum, as when loosing grip, it creates a distortion/saturation. The distortion takes away the ability to feel the difference when the Force Feedback is near the limit.
I would like to try your analisys with my Carrera, but I need to understand first how you get the .g values for the bottom scale of the graph.
- 31
- Munich
- liated_mi_lefuet
Hi Cote Dazur!
Usually I also prefer a lower setting for FF than 10. Setting 10 does work for me though but on that setting it seems that when regaining grip after a slide the torque on the wheel is so strong, that it's nearly impossible to over react on a counter stear and it therefore almost feels like a kind of driving aid to me. And you might be right with the saturation effect you describe, on setting 10 the subtile FF effects seem to get covered by sheer torque. But that might be a specific G27 problem as well. In general it's quite hard to describe and measure wheel forces just by judging them with your hands.
Nevertheless, I tried different FF-setting from 1 to 10 and there is no difference concerning the effects I have described. Only the quantity of forces chance, but not the quality of the procedure.
After all my curve is just a kind of generic representation of what I feel on the wheel. Different tire compounds will just result in a shift along the x-axis (g-force) but won't change the characteristic of the curve itself.
I used the Top Gear test track for testing. What I did was the following:
The runway is wide enough to drive slow circles on it. I turn in the wheel for about 90° and slowly and continuously accelerate. During that maneuver I hold the wheel with only one finger (for more sensitivity). When I reach about 0.5g on the g-force scale (which is conntected to a speed of somewhere between 50 an 60 km/h) I can recognize a kind of tipping point with a distinctiv increase of torque to the maximum of whatever the current setting of FF-level is.
That's what I tried to visually capture in my curve. It might be that I'm not able to correctly dissolve the initial rise of the torque curve, maybe it doesn't have that constant self aligning base line as I assumed it.
Perhaps with a tension spring balance there would be a chance to measure the steering forces more accurate. I wish PD had included a circular skid pad for proper testing and comparison with real cars. But who knows, perhaps they forgot that on purpose...on a skid pad you can find out a whole lot of things concerning the basic driving dynamics of a car!
Btw: I also tested FF-cars again and in contrast to my first statement there is no difference in the behaviour. They are all the same.
Usually I also prefer a lower setting for FF than 10. Setting 10 does work for me though but on that setting it seems that when regaining grip after a slide the torque on the wheel is so strong, that it's nearly impossible to over react on a counter stear and it therefore almost feels like a kind of driving aid to me. And you might be right with the saturation effect you describe, on setting 10 the subtile FF effects seem to get covered by sheer torque. But that might be a specific G27 problem as well. In general it's quite hard to describe and measure wheel forces just by judging them with your hands.
Nevertheless, I tried different FF-setting from 1 to 10 and there is no difference concerning the effects I have described. Only the quantity of forces chance, but not the quality of the procedure.
After all my curve is just a kind of generic representation of what I feel on the wheel. Different tire compounds will just result in a shift along the x-axis (g-force) but won't change the characteristic of the curve itself.
I used the Top Gear test track for testing. What I did was the following:
The runway is wide enough to drive slow circles on it. I turn in the wheel for about 90° and slowly and continuously accelerate. During that maneuver I hold the wheel with only one finger (for more sensitivity). When I reach about 0.5g on the g-force scale (which is conntected to a speed of somewhere between 50 an 60 km/h) I can recognize a kind of tipping point with a distinctiv increase of torque to the maximum of whatever the current setting of FF-level is.
That's what I tried to visually capture in my curve. It might be that I'm not able to correctly dissolve the initial rise of the torque curve, maybe it doesn't have that constant self aligning base line as I assumed it.
Perhaps with a tension spring balance there would be a chance to measure the steering forces more accurate. I wish PD had included a circular skid pad for proper testing and comparison with real cars. But who knows, perhaps they forgot that on purpose...on a skid pad you can find out a whole lot of things concerning the basic driving dynamics of a car!
Btw: I also tested FF-cars again and in contrast to my first statement there is no difference in the behaviour. They are all the same.
- 7,765
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
Yes, follow this link for more info in the form of a Google Doc Spreadsheet. You'll also find many more real life skidpad numbers & links to the original sources scattered throughout the thread.
👍
EDIT: Here's another useful link; http://carranking.com/skidpad
Last edited:
- 4,182
- Ottawa
VBR
The second link is very good. Thank you.
hello.
i have a question. i have not read all posts, but i have seen someone mention that tire width is not computed into the equations for tire grip (the post with the google docs recommendations list)
now..since that is the case and most sport car tire combinations have different tire widths front to rear (front being less wide than rear), shouldn't it be necessary to put one harder mix on the front tires and - depending on the amount of difference between front and rear width - one or even two mixes softer on the back?
for example, i tried this with the yellowbird and the btr. in real life, they both have "skinny" (comparably, of course) tires up front and wide rubber on the back, so i used - for both, trying for somewhat period accuracy - comfort medium on the front and sport hard on the back. they were still, as they are supposed to be, skidding around easily, but they felt a lot more like a porsche should (having driven and co-driven a few normal porsches, i at least know a tiny little bit of the feel) and not break traction everywhere, immediately
problem is, it induces understeer (obviously), which, for those two cars is fine, but on a zonda, for example, there should be close to no understeer. BUT it's much harder to judge (for me. perhaps i need to try to fiddle with the FFB setting) when the front tire loses all grip. and that's strangely unlike gt4, where it was easy to drive around the horrid understeer and make the car (compared the YB, btr and zonda) behave like it should (except for almost no oversteer).
what do you think?
i also managed to get only very slightly faster lap times than in real life, but that may just be my quality of (gt5) driving. since i'm nowhere near the real fast (gt5) drivers, it doesn't mean much, perhaps.
i have a question. i have not read all posts, but i have seen someone mention that tire width is not computed into the equations for tire grip (the post with the google docs recommendations list)
now..since that is the case and most sport car tire combinations have different tire widths front to rear (front being less wide than rear), shouldn't it be necessary to put one harder mix on the front tires and - depending on the amount of difference between front and rear width - one or even two mixes softer on the back?
for example, i tried this with the yellowbird and the btr. in real life, they both have "skinny" (comparably, of course) tires up front and wide rubber on the back, so i used - for both, trying for somewhat period accuracy - comfort medium on the front and sport hard on the back. they were still, as they are supposed to be, skidding around easily, but they felt a lot more like a porsche should (having driven and co-driven a few normal porsches, i at least know a tiny little bit of the feel) and not break traction everywhere, immediately
problem is, it induces understeer (obviously), which, for those two cars is fine, but on a zonda, for example, there should be close to no understeer. BUT it's much harder to judge (for me. perhaps i need to try to fiddle with the FFB setting) when the front tire loses all grip. and that's strangely unlike gt4, where it was easy to drive around the horrid understeer and make the car (compared the YB, btr and zonda) behave like it should (except for almost no oversteer).
what do you think?
i also managed to get only very slightly faster lap times than in real life, but that may just be my quality of (gt5) driving. since i'm nowhere near the real fast (gt5) drivers, it doesn't mean much, perhaps.
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