GTP Debate Thread #2 - Space Exploration

[Duke]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
Can i suggest a topic?..

What about the money that governments spend on space exploration....US, Russia, and now China....and the European Space Agency too....

would these billions be better spend on improving teachers wages, hiring better doctors and nurses and helping underpriviliged children and getting more police in the inner city and cutting crime?

or do you think that the exploration of space and the planets is the way forward and we need to understand it if we are to survive?...

Originally posted by KosmikFool
Okay, Turbo, we're using your topic!

NEXT TOPIC: GOVERNMENT MONEY ON SPACE EXPLORATION!

The first viewpoint - that money spent on space exploration is wasted, and should be spent on social programs here on Earth - is very short-sighted. It is championed by the likes of Senator William Proxmire, who regularly awarded NASA his satirical "Golden Fleece" award for wasting tax dollars.

People of this view are neglecting two crucial ideas:

1) The Earth itself is entirely too fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in. Even outside our own environmental destruction, there are too many chances that natural disasters can cause severe damage to the human population. We need to explore space with an eye towards colonization. Yes, the technology is in its infancy, but we first managed powered flight 100 years ago this year. Another 100 years will likely see a similar increase in technology, provided we budget for it. 100 years after that could see a substantial population living in self-sustaining space colonies.

2) A huge volume of technology developed for aerospace programs filters down to all manner of Earthbound benefits. Everything from "thinsulate" clothing to microwave ovens has been derived from technology invented for the space program. There are enough home-market benefits to pay for the research itself; the space exploration is a bonus. However, based on my first point, I think it is a primary goal anyway.

 

[KosmikFool]

Ahhh...Good idea Duke! Thank you 👍

Personally, I think that instead of competing like these governments do (even if they say they don't) they should help each other. Have a world-wide Space Foundation that all money from every country that funds space exploration should go to. Might sound a bit weird, but I think it could work.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by KosmikFool
Have a world-wide Space Foundation that all money from every country that funds space exploration should go to.

i was thinking the same thing...the data that space exploration provides is of a benefit to mankind and not just the individual country who spent the money on the research...why should the US spend billions on space when other wealthy countries do not but still reap the benefits....

it would be useful for a central fund to be set up and each G3 country put in a certain amount....

that way it would leave enough money in the pot for each country to deal with its own issues of schooling and poverty..

however, it could be argued that if we spend the same amount of money on researching medicine instead of space, we would erradicate AIDS, cancer and other killier diseases in a much shorter time....

 

[regulate]

in my opinion the money spent in "space exploration" is not for the betterment (is that a word?) mankind, but to be the first nation to have offensive space technology in orbit to keep the other nations in check, and to have extreme leverage with those nations, buuuut yea ist a tough choice, invest in human capital, or in technology that will promote the ecconomy. so thats my view on this subject.

 

[Danoff]

I’ll need to caveat this post with the following:
“I work for US government funded space exploration.”

Some cutting edge research goes on at NASA while planning for space exploration. The technology that NASA develops goes directly to industry (sometimes directly and sometimes via the academic community). I would say that most of the research that goes on at NASA in the US goes to the world public directly. The result is the European and Chinese space agencies. Now I’m not saying that we built those space agencies, but we (and the Russians) certainly pioneered much of the science and technology that those agencies now stand on - that’s what happens when you’re behind.

The US and Russian space agencies have resulted in so much technology that has increased the everyday standard of living that I can’t mention them all. I will point out that geologists are crazy about the work going on right now at Mars, and that every service that you use that uses satellites (ie: internet, GPS, international cell phone calls, teleconferencing, satellite television…) owes a great deal to the space agency.

Space is, of course, expensive. No company’s R&D budget is going to allow them to launch exploratory probes to the corners of the solar system. In general, some government funded research is a good thing for a forward looking country. Space is one example, and it is arguably crucial for the country’s defense to have a solid understanding of rocketry, maintain a GPS system, etc. (defense of course being one of the things government is required to do in all cases).


Now some on this thread have already mentioned that if there is money for space, that money could be poured directly into more immediately tangible areas like AIDS and cancer research, or ending poverty or hunger.

I could make the argument that it is possible that GPS has saved more lives than have been claimed by AIDS or cancer, but it would require too many hypotheticals. Instead I will say that it is more important that we look ahead than to try to achieve the unachievable perfection of not having poverty or hunger anywhere in our country. No country will ever achieve perfection. There will always be inequities, so it doesn’t make sense for us to halt our technological progress to try to accomplish that.

Cancer, heart disease, and other health issues are tougher subjects. There is government funding in those areas, though. However, adding the funding of the space program to those endeavors would not stack linearly with the funding that is already there. The cost benefit ratio in government research programs falls off quickly after a certain amount. Therefore, it is good economic practice not to over-fund any particular government research.

Let’s say you don’t buy the unachievable perfection argument, and you don’t buy the cost-benefit ratio argument. Let’s look at this from the point of view of biology… new viruses and bacteria strains will always mutate and pop up and plague the human species. Does that mean that we should never have a space program?

 

[Danoff]

Have a world-wide Space Foundation that all money from every country that funds space exploration should go to.

So every country decides that they want their pet project to go forward. Every country wants the project that has their best interest to be the one everyone else is working on? Does everyone have to contribute equally - nobody contributes more than zimbabwe? This idea has an astounding number of holes in it.

Let's take an example scenario. ISS (international space station)

The thing cost billions more than it should have as a result of international funding problems. Think of the money that was lost while Russia was dragging their heals launching the propulsion module. Think of the money that is lost when two countries have to agree on every interface standard for every part on the station. It's rediculous and more of a PR move than actual science.

I'm going to go ahead and say it would be a terrible idea for all countries to pool their money for one world space program.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I think that the "pooled resources" idea is pretty much doomed to failure if each nation has a hand in "steering" the direction of the agency. Instead, it should probably fall under the auspices of the United Nations in order that political neutrality be maintained.

Is it possible to support the notion of multiple space agencies each competing against each other to try to gain as much of the commercial space traffic as possible? To do so would be to pretty much consign at least as many billions of dollars to waste as rival agencies independently develop the same technology.

I think that space exploration is extremely important for the human race. I can't believe that we are the only planet in the universe that has intelligent life, and I think it should be a defining purpose for us to go find it, and/or to maximise its chances of finding us.

And finally, I think that if governments were more efficient in the way that they run themselves, there would be several hundreds of millions of dollars per country that could be released back into the arena for actually performing some good, rather than feathering the politicians' nests.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by danoff


I'm going to go ahead and say it would be a terrible idea for all countries to pool their money for one world space program.

I'm inclined to agree. The human race grows through competition.

 

[emad]

i think space exploration won't advance in our lifteimes...not until they stop the damn beurocracy in NASA. China for one is, i think, attempting to go to the moon. that's why they've started with sending people. if they can prove travel to the moon is safe, they can move on using current technology to hit mars more accurately with the space probes. keep in mind that NASA has the worlds worst track record for sending sattelites up into orbit safely whereas Japan, the EU, and Russia have their launches as being far more successful. Russian Mars exploration probes have also been twice as successful as NASA's. Sombody is skimping on money here...i wonder who it is?

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Instead, it should probably fall under the auspices of the United Nations in order that political neutrality be maintained.

Giles. Re-read this sentence. Now go wash your mouth out with soap and burn your keyboard.

 

[Danoff]

Quick google search on Russian Mars probes:

A new effort in Mars exploration has set off successfully with the launch of two NASA probes in the span of a month. In early November the Mars Global Surveyor (orbiter) lifted off from Cape Canaveral, Florida aboard a Delta II three stage rocket, while the Mars Pathfinder (lander) escaped from Earth using a similar launch vehicle during the night of December 4. It is hoped that these two probes will renew the exploration of Mars, which has faltered in the 20 years since the Viking landers due to failures of many Soviet, Russian and US spacecraft, most recently with the major loss of the Russian Mars '96 probe.

i think space exploration won't advance in our lifteimes...not until they stop the damn beurocracy in NASA.

What about the following missions?

Deep Impact
Stardust
Cassinni
MER
DAWN

and countless other upcoming missions... you might want to check this link out: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/

Are you aware of Ion rocket propulsion? Solar Sails? Aerogel?

if they can prove travel to the moon is safe, they can move on using current technology to hit mars more accurately with the space probes.

Sounds like what the U.S. did 40 years ago.

keep in mind that NASA has the worlds worst track record for sending sattelites up into orbit safely whereas Japan, the EU, and Russia have their launches as being far more successful

Supporting evidence please.

 

[jay wilkie]

this idea of a world wide space exploration fund would never work in my opinion.. look at how humans live on earth... we CANT get along on ONE planet !!! how the hell do people expect us all to forget our differences and suddenly pull together on this subject? think about it.. we are all on the planet, the planet is like a circle, a circle only has ONE side!! do we act like we are all standing on the SAME side?? christ people on this small forum cant even get on civally...

 

[emad]

Originally posted by danoff
Quick google search on Russian Mars probes:

ok...i had recieved wrong information there. sattelite launches are still more successful

What about the following missions?

Deep Impact
Stardust
Cassinni
MER
DAWN

and countless other upcoming missions... you might want to check this link out: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/

well...we'll find out if/when they happen won't we? cape canaveral launches tend to be easily delayed.

Are you aware of Ion rocket propulsion? Solar Sails? Aerogel?

fully aware. do u really think they will be used within our lifetimes though? the idea of solar sails was around for a very very long time but nobody has done anything to assess the possibilities or begin to attempt creating them.

Sounds like what the U.S. did 40 years ago.

understood...but why did nobody attempt afterwords? i'm split on this possibility since a good part of me sez it's bull****, but people say that the moon landings were staged.

Supporting evidence please.

I got this info from Wired Magazine - October
should have been more detailed and i should have looked at the article more thoroughly b4 posting.

it's based on commercial sattelite launches are by commercial companies i think? anyways, 2002 had only 24 launches of the predicted 85.

worst success rate, i heard that in one of my history classes

just some numbers that were of interest to me...from the same article

how much sattelite $1 million puts into low-earth orbit (approximates):
Europe-Russia - 320
Europe - 320
Ukraine - 250
India - 280-290
Russia - 150
USA - 125-135
US-Russia - 110-125
Japan - 80 (but the highest success rates)


one more thing b4 i head off to sleep...
wasn't the last mars mission fubar caused by mixups between metric and imperial?

 

[TurboSmoke]

The point on pooled recources i wanted to make was mainly concerning input from on the richest countries in the world and each making an equal payment...US, Japan, France, Aus, UK, Germany etc....i was thinking something more like an organisation similar to the UN (despite its recent bad exposure)..

third world countries would be exempt...

Its true that the Chinese and Euro space projects wouldnt exist if it wasnt for thr research done @ Nasa and Russia and the world sure is a better place for that research....


but moving away from the point of hypothetical agencies, i was wondering if you think that the money would be better spent on projects on earth...not just medicine but also the research into renewable energies and the reduction of pollution...crime reduction and education.....?

 

[emad]

renewable energies won't happen anytime soon...too many people refuse to live without their damnable suv's

crime reduction...never gonna happen completely in a western world...only a few countries can do it right. look at canada for example.

education - the usa needs to stop pulling money OUT of education for a start. then they gotta stop brainwashing students saying that the US is the only country in the world. then they gotta show kids how to recognize their OWN NEIGHBORS oon a map...when i moved here, only 2 of my friends knew where canada was on a map.


it's true that china and euro agencies exist because of russia, but NASA is restricted on giving out their research data thanks to outdated regulations...again, that's from the article in Wired

pooling resources - would work...IF people could agree on standards. the UK and US still refuse to use the metric system though the UK is better and more open about it. an international space agency would be nice, but lets see how the European Union handles theirs first. they're operating with...is it 20 countries? not to mention that the EU wants to create their own GPS network since the US one is outdated as their sattelites are just too old to keep going on now.

 

[Danoff]

sigh I shouldn't have read your posts emad. They're difficult for me to not respond to because they're so misguided with blind hatred toward the U.S. I have trouble not responding when I see blatantly wrong information, but there is a limit to how much patience I will have in this discussion. Please start citing your claims more carefully because I'm having trouble believing any of them. " I saw it in Wired" or "heard it in history" is not sufficient. I want to see the article for myself, so please post a link. Now, I'll do my best to straighten this mess out:

ok...i had recieved wrong information there. sattelite launches are still more successful

Perhaps you have received wrong information elsewhere as well. Show me a statistic that says any country besides the U.S. has the highest success rate for satellite launches. I'm willing to believe it but I won't take your assertion as fact on your word alone.

well...we'll find out if/when they happen won't we? cape canaveral launches tend to be easily delayed.

Several of those missions are already underway. Again, see the link I posted.

fully aware. do u really think they will be used within our lifetimes though? the idea of solar sails was around for a very very long time but nobody has done anything to assess the possibilities or begin to attempt creating them.

Hmmm. A solar sail satellite has been launched but malfunctioned (deployment mechanism). It will happen. Ion propulsion has already been used to great success and will continue to be used in almost all future space missions. Aerogel is being used on stardust and will continue to be used. Did you even look at that link???

understood...but why did nobody attempt afterwords? i'm split on this possibility since a good part of me sez it's bull****, but people say that the moon landings were staged.

I've looked into it, the moon landing wasn't staged, its retarded to think that it was so don't concern yourself with the possibility. I'm sure that a quick perusal of the websites making the claim will convince you. We didn't go back because people in this country felt that it would be more worthwhile to give money away to people who don't work than to fund additional trips / new bases on the moon.

I got this info from Wired Magazine - October
should have been more detailed and i should have looked at the article more thoroughly b4 posting.

it's based on commercial sattelite launches are by commercial companies i think? anyways, 2002 had only 24 launches of the predicted 85.

worst success rate, i heard that in one of my history classes

just some numbers that were of interest to me...from the same article

how much sattelite $1 million puts into low-earth orbit (approximates):
Europe-Russia - 320
Europe - 320
Ukraine - 250
India - 280-290
Russia - 150
USA - 125-135
US-Russia - 110-125
Japan - 80 (but the highest success rates)

How much satellite they're willing to put into orbit for a certain amount of money doesn't really say much. It makes sense that the smallest amount of satellite for the money would have the highest success rate, but I'd like to see that. Does this wired article assert that Japan has the highest success rate or is that from your history class also?

one more thing b4 i head off to sleep...
wasn't the last mars mission fubar caused by mixups between metric and imperial?

Yup. It was a miscommunication between international space agencies (exactly the thing that many people on this thread are claiming won't happen). Except it wasn't the last Mars mission. I believe odyssey was the last mars mission and there are two more US satellites and one European satellite on their way to Mars now.

renewable energies won't happen anytime soon...too many people refuse to live without their damnable suv's

Woah. Yes, it is SUV owners fault. Not sports car, or pickup truck or jeep owners. Not people who own sedans... no no no it's SUV owners. Clearly. Because before SUV's were even around the country wasn't at all dependent on oil... sure thing.

crime reduction...never gonna happen completely in a western world...only a few countries can do it right. look at canada for example.

Show me a free society that does it better than the US.

education - the usa needs to stop pulling money OUT of education for a start. then they gotta stop brainwashing students saying that the US is the only country in the world. then they gotta show kids how to recognize their OWN NEIGHBORS oon a map...when i moved here, only 2 of my friends knew where canada was on a map.

That's because Canada isn't important . Piling tax dollars into government sponsored education is getting us further into this mess, not out of it. Check out www.cato.org under school choice.

it's true that china and euro agencies exist because of russia, but NASA is restricted on giving out their research data thanks to outdated regulations...again, that's from the article in Wired

Actually, NASA has done way more for spaceflight than Russia has. Russia has been way more guarded about their research (find that hard to believe?) than NASA. I've seen NASA turn over countless amounts of research in the form of technical papers. That last quote of yours is just a completely wrong.

pooling resources - would work...IF people could agree on standards. the UK and US still refuse to use the metric system though the UK is better and more open about it. an international space agency would be nice, but lets see how the European Union handles theirs first. they're operating with...is it 20 countries? not to mention that the EU wants to create their own GPS network since the US one is outdated as their sattelites are just too old to keep going on now.

No. In the technical community (especially space) the US has adopted the metric system to a large degree. Yes, let's see how the European union stacks up to the US space agency.
The last bit about the US GPS network is totally wrong. I don't know where you get your information from but it's a complete lie. You should punch whoever told you that. The US GPS system (I'll spare you much of the lecture) has backup satellites in every orbit plane. There is no way that those aging satellites (which are lasting way longer than they were designed to last) are going to cause an interruption in our network. EU wants to create their own GPS network because they just can't stand that the US has one and they don't. We let them use ours, but since it's American they want their own toy... no sharing.
Please try to verify your claims about the US space agency before you make them. Some of what you said is completely incorrect , other things are in direct contradiction to the sources I provided you (indicating that you did not look at them), the rest of what you said is filled with half truths. I prefer debating subjects with people who are willing to go out and find information for themselves rather than just taking the nationalistic rhetoric you get handed (no, that's not hypocritical).

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by danoff



Show me a free society that does it better than the US.



That's because Canada isn't important . [/B]

All I hear from you Danof is USA this USA that, USA is the best .. bla bla bla.. I think your kind of attitude is quite common and that is what Emad meant by US schools stopping the brainwashing of their students into this kind of thinking.. Dont get me wrong it is important to love the country that you are from but you also have to not be so naive to think that your USA does EVERYTHING better than anyone else.. because its quite simple... THEY DONT !! To come out and say show me another society that deals with crime reduction better than the US is such a crock of SH#T !! come on man , you cant be serious here !! wait a minute im starting to believe that you think you ARE right.. na.. the US society is a mess!! you have metal detectors in the schools for christ sake..
i'll tell you a society that does it better: HONK KONG... last year their police made around 5 million recorded contacts with their public. it's the safest city in the world..7 million people..they also have a far better complaint system for people who have a problem with the police. in the year 2000 out of some 6000 complaints about the police 2200 were fully investigated. if you make a complaint about police in the US you get the brush off.

you are 5 times more likely to get murdered in the US and 3 times more likely to get raped !! i'll give it to you that your crime rate is dropping but thats only thanks to NAFTA, much of the US crime is commited in Mexico and because all the losers and deadbeats have been in California running for govenor

 

[Danoff]

Hong Kong is a good example (well... used to be anyway) . I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just asked for the example. I'm interested in these numbers about the increased chance of being murdered in the US vs. Hong Kong. Is that for all US cities, or the US as a whole? Where did those numbers come from?

All I hear from everyone else is US sucks, US is the worst, I hate the US blah blah blah. You'd better expect an argument against that.

The smiley face after the quote "that's because canada isn't important" is meant to imply that I wasn't serious.

Finally, the point of this statement:

Show me a free society that does it better than the US.

Is the word free .

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
All I hear from you Danof is USA this USA that, USA is the best .. bla bla bla.. I think your kind of attitude is quite common and that is what Emad meant by US schools stopping the brainwashing of their students into this kind of thinking.. Dont get me wrong it is important to love the country that you are from but you also have to not be so naive to think that your USA does EVERYTHING better than anyone else.. because its quite simple... THEY DONT !! To come out and say show me another society that deals with crime reduction better than the US is such a crock of SH#T !! come on man , you cant be serious here !! wait a minute im starting to believe that you think you ARE right.. na.. the US society is a mess!! you have metal detectors in the schools for christ sake..
i'll tell you a society that does it better: HONK KONG... last year their police made around 5 million recorded contacts with their public. it's the safest city in the world..7 million people..they also have a far better complaint system for people who have a problem with the police. in the year 2000 out of some 6000 complaints about the police 2200 were fully investigated. if you make a complaint about police in the US you get the brush off.

you are 5 times more likely to get murdered in the US and 3 times more likely to get raped !! i'll give it to you that your crime rate is dropping but thats only thanks to NAFTA, much of the US crime is commited in Mexico and because all the losers and deadbeats have been in California running for govenor

You have got to be kidding me. You're saying that all Americans should be ashamed of themselves for being American. You're saying that we should teach our school children that other countries do things better than us. You're saying that to be proud to be an American means we are brainwashed and bad. America has contributed more to the development of the industrial/technological world than anyone. Period. As Americans we enjoy the benefits of it, unapologetically. Sour grapes and envy are pathetic.

I meant to say popular socialistic sentiment is degenerate.

Why does it anger you so that an American would favor his country and it's ways? What would you expect? Something a little more European? Then go to Europe.

Lastly I just have to point out that like all anti-Americans, you resort to base insults devoid of principle because you have nothing else to say. You've proven right in this thread that you simply wish to create a semblance of American decline or inferiority. When it's proven to be false you become angry and call Americans brainwashed. You are not the only person I've seen do this. It's pitiful. You prove in your weak struggle, characterized by desperation, lies, and malevolence, precisely what Amercans are polite enough not to say. Don't provoke us.

 

[milefile]

And by the way...Hong Kong? There are tribes in the mountains of Paupa New Guinea who have zero crime. Maybe we should model their society.

 

[emad]

FREE society you say?
CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we got gun control to the point where you almost NEVER hear about shootings. you're allowed to buy, but the laws are very strict - in ontario anyways, u gotta have a gun license to be able to own one and u can only buy from a few special places. robberies are extremely minimal and are limited in locations. u wanted free? here's free. to top that, our government is actually putting forth a REAL effort against drug dealers.

oh...crime free...have u looked around in some european countries? they're also good places. how bout australia? yet another free country without oppression.

did u even bother to see my signature? i used to live in the USA...believe me, i wouldn't want to live in houston any more. i'd love to visit sometimes to see old friends, but i can't see myself in the us anymore.

Originally posted by danoff
sigh they're so misguided with blind hatred toward the U.S. I have trouble not responding when I see blatantly wrong information, but there is a limit to how much patience I will have in this discussion.

i i spent 10 years of my life living there. my blind hatred is towards the bush administration and the things they're doing to muslims. not to the country's people.

" I saw it in Wired" or "heard it in history" is not sufficient. I want to see the article for myself, so please post a link. Now, I'll do my best to straighten this mess out:

i quoted the magazine there. the history thing was outta my notes. if u want, i could scan them in for you.

Hmmm. A solar sail satellite has been launched but malfunctioned (deployment mechanism). It will happen. Ion propulsion has already been used to great success and will continue to be used in almost all future space missions. Aerogel is being used on stardust and will continue to be used. Did you even look at that link???

yes i did...i didn't see anything. if they did start testing them, this would be the first time i'm ever hearing about it. ion propulsion is atm nowhere near to being powerful enough at this point. that's why i said it won't happen in our lifetimes.

I've looked into it, the moon landing wasn't staged, its retarded to think that it was so don't concern yourself with the possibility. I'm sure that a quick perusal of the websites making the claim will convince you. We didn't go back because people in this country felt that it would be more worthwhile to give money away to people who don't work than to fund additional trips / new bases on the moon.

if that were true, there wouldn't be so many homeless. the money went into military spendings - what were all those hippy riots about? u listen to rage against the machine? i hate hard rock/metal, but everything they say in their lyrics is true

How much satellite they're willing to put into orbit for a certain amount of money doesn't really say much. It makes sense that the smallest amount of satellite for the money would have the highest success rate, but I'd like to see that. Does this wired article assert that Japan has the highest success rate or is that from your history class also?

not necessarily true. it's all markup and overpriced, unneeded technology.

Woah. Yes, it is SUV owners fault. Not sports car, or pickup truck or jeep owners. Not people who own sedans... no no no it's SUV owners. Clearly. Because before SUV's were even around the country wasn't at all dependent on oil... sure thing.

i'm guessing ur in one of those categories? my family only has 2 small hondas. it's enuf for us since only one of them is ever being driven long distance. oh...and do u bike to anyplace like I do to save gas? i thought not.

Actually, NASA has done way more for spaceflight than Russia has. Russia has been way more guarded about their research (find that hard to believe?) than NASA. I've seen NASA turn over countless amounts of research in the form of technical papers. That last quote of yours is just a completely wrong.

russia is open to all buyers u know...show some money and they'll hook u up to technology/help. granted, it's because they're poor but alot of countries are using russian tech to jump start their space programs.

No. In the technical community (especially space) the US has adopted the metric system to a large degree. Yes, let's see how the European union stacks up to the US space agency.
The last bit about the US GPS network is totally wrong. I don't know where you get your information from but it's a complete lie. You should punch whoever told you that. The US GPS system (I'll spare you much of the lecture) has backup satellites in every orbit plane. There is no way that those aging satellites (which are lasting way longer than they were designed to last) are going to cause an interruption in our network. EU wants to create their own GPS network because they just can't stand that the US has one and they don't. We let them use ours, but since it's American they want their own toy... no sharing.

actually, the eu wants it because they want their own technology in it. the american gps IS aging, their sattelites ARE dying off slowly, and they WONT last forever. keep in mind that MIR lasted over 18 years out of the maximum reccomended 10. but MIR needed CONSTANT repairs and maintenance and even caught fire once. no sattelite will last forever, and YES, there are tons of them, but how long u think they'll die off? the've reached their lifespans or are close to it. that's the primary reason that EU and China are both working on it. i'll find the article tonight...if i get a link, even better.

As reported by Scientific American, the U.S. Air Force is considering a new global positioning system, which would resolve these problems. But the earliest the military could launch next-generation GPS satellites would be 2010.

as quoted by wired.com
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=000B4F14-3F8A-1F45-B0B980A841890000 - link to the scientific american article


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00001004-9FF8-1F46-B0B980A841890000
that article shows that the EU is may possibly try to integrate WITH the american GPS

- keep in mind gps is 20 years old...not all of the sattelites are that old, but they are obviously reaching the age where they're ready to replace.


anyways...i got class in 15 minutes...cya
and stop sayin i'm a us hater...i only hate what ur government is doing and what the american media is doing by putting all muslims under a bad light

 

[Solid Fro]

Back to the point, please.

Hopefully, there will be a new space race, since China has joined the club.

 

[jay wilkie]

milefile what is your problem? didn't you read the part when i said it is very important to love the country that you are from? i am not saying anything like that you should teach your kids other countries are better. danof asked the question show me a society that reduces crime better than the US, and that made me make my point that alot of americans can't comprehend that other countries just might do some things better than them. my example is quite simple with a crime rate so bad how can any american clame to be the best at reducing crime? how can you say that i have nothing to say? he asked a question, I answered it with HONG KONG.. you have also answered the same question with your clever answer.. thanks for proving my point for a second time.

 

[Klostrophobic]

A space race would be nizza. With more competition, countries like the US and USSR would begin to invest more money into their respective space programs. This can only be good for mankind, because new technologies you use everyday are a result of NASA.

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by milefile

Lastly I just have to point out that like all anti-Americans, you resort to base insults devoid of principle because you have nothing else to say.

lastly i would just like to say that i am far from being an Anti-American.. i love America, I have spent a lot of my life there, i have been to school there .. so i know from first hand experience what the people are like, which is to say they are on the whole very great people. I am NOT resorting to base insults without principle I am simply saying that Hong Kong was just one example of a society that done a particular thing better than the US.. what happened next? An American slams me saying i have no principle to make that argument. so you see you have proved me RIGHT by reacting the way you have. if you had answered back : " hey your right they do a better job than us "... then i would have been wrong, wouldn't I.. truth hurts sometimes

 

[Danoff]

i only hate what ur government is doing and what the american media is doing by putting all muslims under a bad light

…random I hate the US sentiment.

actually, the eu wants it because they want their own technology in it. the american gps IS aging, their sattelites ARE dying off slowly, and they WONT last forever

I have literally had graduate education in the US GPS system, but I’m sure you know what’s going to happen. I guarantee the US military considers it top priority. As I said before… backup satellites in every orbit plane. Oh but you don’t listen to what I say so what’s the point.

i'm guessing ur in one of those categories? my family only has 2 small hondas. it's enuf for us since only one of them is ever being driven long distance. oh...and do u bike to anyplace like I do to save gas? i thought not.

I live within walking distance of most things I need. I only own one small Honda. But that’s NOT THE GODDAM POINT!

yes i did...i didn't see anything. if they did start testing them, this would be the first time i'm ever hearing about it. ion propulsion is atm nowhere near to being powerful enough at this point. that's why i said it won't happen in our lifetimes.

Ok that does it. I told you I don’t have patience for this kind of irresponsibility with facts and I meant it. We have launched (past tense) Deep Space I, a famous mission that used (past tense) ion propulsion. Almost every new interplanetary mission the US puts up will use ion propulsion. I work in this area and I know it for certain. I tried to supply the link for you but you’re not interested in facts. I’m done with this discussion.

 

[Danoff]

what happened next? An American slams me saying i have no principle to make that argument

... actually he slammed you on a legitimate point. Please note that I didn't argue with your example of Hong Kong. But, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they aren't free anymore right? Aren't they under Chinese (communist) rule now?

... and you didn't get my point. Hong Kong is a city. Did they have to worry about a military? It's not the same comparing a country against a city.

You totally presumed that when I said show me a free country that does it better that I didn't think you could do it. That couldn't have been farther from the truth. I figured you could. But it made you think about it pretty hard didn't it. You couldn't just go say Canada or Britain or Zimbabwe. You had to sit and think about the fact that its not a fair comparison to compare crime levels in a country that oppresses its people (like Canada) against a country that does not.

 

[TurboSmoke]

This subject is getting waaaaayyy off topic (as usual)..

its turned into another of those 'america is best and dont argue' threads that prolifirate this board...

time for a new subject, someone please suggest one..

 

[Duke]

You could also say it turned into another of those "[A]merica sucks and dont argue" threads, Turbo Smoke. It just depends on where your agenda is, so don't act so holier-than-thou, please.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by neon_duke
You could also say it turned into another of those "[A]merica sucks and dont argue" threads, Turbo Smoke. It just depends on where your agenda is, so don't act so holier-than-thou, please.

okay ND, i'll try not to mate...

right, *rubs hands*...new topic anyone?