GTPSP as a gateway drug

[Frederik82]

Hey people,

After a making a few comments here and there I decided to make my first meaty thread I am actually having a couple of things going around in my head right now so I tried to compress this into a hopefully not too redundant post.

First off: I am a total newbie to the GT series and driving/racing sims in general. I am still far away from spending cash on a nice wheel or something like that, so I´m trying to use the upcoming GTPSP as a "gateway drug" into serious driving games. I don´t have PS2 or PS3, I don´t even have a TV other than a dingy, small and outdated one that´s almost unusable for almost anything, let alone gaming.

I don´t have much cash to throw around either, so things like buying a recent console or a new TV are far out of reach at the moment - the only thing relatively nice I have is a only few-months-old PC with a nice wide screen, i7 processor and 8gb RAM (which I bought for Photoshop work, I´m an illustration student, hence my being broke all the time ). So I´m going to use GTPSP as my first more intense experience into this genre (I´ve spent some time with Toca2 on the PSP before, and liked it a lot). Maybe after I exhausted GTPSP (which will likely take quite a few months) and decide to go for a more full-fledged experience I might try some PC sims for the reasons mentioned above, but then I would also want to invest into a wheel, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it Feel free to suggest some, thought - I´ve heard GTR and rFactor are supposed to be good.

I have following question:

-Are there any compact newcomer guides to racing physics and car mechanics, either real-life or sim-centric? I don´t even have car, nor do I have a drivers license (I´ve been living in big cities all my life, so it never was really necessary), so stuff like gear ratios, suspension, different tires, switching gears etc is something I really want to dive into. I just barely know about stuff like curve apex and braking points, but that´s about it. I´ve tried searching for some condensed info on this site and the web in general, but haven´t found anything comprehensive so far.

-What camera mode would you suggest in GTPSP? I´ve used to switch between chase view and bumper cam in other racing games, mostly Ridge Racer, but somebody here said something about the need to "feel" how the car reacts in more realistic games (weight shift etc). Is the hood cam usable in this regard, or is the first-person view the best? I´d love to hear different opinions about that. (Yeah, the game isn´t out yet, but maybe we can assume most views work like in GT4?)

-What are the advantages of shifting manually as opposed to automatic? I´ve seen people mention this even in games as simple as Ridge Racer. This is very likely another complete newbie question

I´ve been very excited about this game recently, looking up different cars that will be in the game (I really loved the Mitsubishi Lancer models in Toca2), watching replays of tracks that will (re)appear in the game, reading up on physics and all that, so I´m curious about your input. (I will be having some work ahead of me in the next few days so excuse if I don´t post again here right away, I will most certainly read it though!) By the way, I´m really enjoying this board so far! 👍

 

[Tornado]

-Are there any compact newcomer guides to racing physics and car mechanics, either real-life or sim-centric? I don´t even have car, nor do I have a drivers license (I´ve been living in big cities all my life, so it never was really necessary), so stuff like gear ratios, suspension, different tires, switching gears etc is something I really want to dive into. I just barely know about stuff like curve apex and braking points, but that´s about it. I´ve tried searching for some condensed info on this site and the web in general, but haven´t found anything comprehensive so far.

Find an online scan of the Gran Turismo 2 Reference Manual (I would check some PSP homebrew sites if Google isn't helping, because GT2 is a very popular homebrew game on the PSP. If you still can't find anything, PM me and I can scan it for you), or just buy a used copy of GT2 to get one. That is how I learned most of the stuff you want to know about. It discusses pretty much everything you need to know to start out, and its only 50-60 pages long. It talks about the benefits of certain drivetrain configurations, some general tuning information and guidelines, and some other neat stuff. Its also written in pretty simple language, and explains most of its terminology.

-What camera mode would you suggest in GTPSP? I´ve used to switch between chase view and bumper cam in other racing games, mostly Ridge Racer, but somebody here said something about the need to "feel" how the car reacts in more realistic games (weight shift etc). Is the hood cam usable in this regard, or is the first-person view the best? I´d love to hear different opinions about that. (Yeah, the game isn´t out yet, but maybe we can assume most views work like in GT4?)

This is a huge "depends," but I used the hood cam exclusively throughout GT4. This is a depends because:

1. The chase camera of GT4 was too tight to the car compared to in GT3 and GT2 (and, indeed, most racing games). This might not apply to GTM.
2. The HUD was oversimplified in the chase cam in GT4. This does not apply to GTM because the HUD is oversimplified in all views based on screenshots.

If you were to choose between chase cam and a first person cam, and the chase cam did not act like GT4, I would use chase cam. The difference in the ability to see your car's behavior is negligible, and you have a better view of your surroundings. If it does, however, I would choose the hood cam.

-What are the advantages of shifting manually as opposed to automatic? I´ve seen people mention this even in games as simple as Ridge Racer. This is very likely another complete newbie question

Gives you more control over shift points, which is especially helpful in cars that make peak power above or far below redline.

 

[G.T.Ace]

-Are there any compact newcomer guides to racing physics and car mechanics, either real-life or sim-centric? I don´t even have car, nor do I have a drivers license (I´ve been living in big cities all my life, so it never was really necessary), so stuff like gear ratios, suspension, different tires, switching gears etc is something I really want to dive into. I just barely know about stuff like curve apex and braking points, but that´s about it. I´ve tried searching for some condensed info on this site and the web in general, but haven´t found anything comprehensive so far.

Oh, there are tons of guides, also here in this forum.
Most technically stuff should be illustrated in the game and its basic driving lessons/set-up menus, at least it was like that in the past GTs.

-What camera mode would you suggest in GTPSP? I´ve used to switch between chase view and bumper cam in other racing games, mostly Ridge Racer, but somebody here said something about the need to "feel" how the car reacts in more realistic games (weight shift etc). Is the hood cam usable in this regard, or is the first-person view the best? I´d love to hear different opinions about that. (Yeah, the game isn´t out yet, but maybe we can assume most views work like in GT4?)

Cockpit view would be the one i would use, because its more immersive. But the hood cam should be pretty good if youre trying to learn where your car ends.

-What are the advantages of shifting manually as opposed to automatic? I´ve seen people mention this even in games as simple as Ridge Racer. This is very likely another complete newbie question

Manual is faster, the automatic shifts to early up and down, this can cost you lots of speeds in corners.

About everything else:
I doubt GTPSP will be really realistic because its on PSP, it should be good enough to learn what racing is about though.

But if your PC is good enough, i would recommend to get a demo of a racing sim like Live for Speed or GTR Evolution. Get yourself a gaming controller if you dont want to buy a wheel and try to learn how to move a car (in a videogame).

 

[Frederik82]

Thank you two, this is exactly the info I was looking for. I will try to get my hands on the GT2 Ref Manual. Live For Speed and GTR Evo sound nice as well, I have a pretty nice gamepad for my PC so I might play around with this for a while. 👍👍👍

1. The chase camera of GT4 was too tight to the car compared to in GT3 and GT2 (and, indeed, most racing games). This might not apply to GTM.

1. 
   
   I think the chase cam in GTPSP is "loose" enough - in some of the videos you can see the sides of the car from time to time, I believe this is what you were talking about?
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBk4LGN6rCk (around 1:19)

 

[Tornado]

That doesn't look too bad, actually. The one in GT4 was much more like the camera used @ 1:05, only pulled back; so it seems PD did fix that.

 

[G.T.Ace]

By the way, what widescreen monitor do you own?
Because you were talking about the lack of a proper TV, you could hook up a PS3 to a monitor.

 

[Frederik82]

By the way, what widescreen monitor do you own?
Because you were talking about the lack of a proper TV, you could hook up a PS3 to a monitor.

It´s a Dell Ultrasharp, has VGA and DVI input. I also have a HD Box Pro, which converts component input to VGA, which is neat (I used it to play import NTSC shmups until I got bored of it and sold the PS2, which I now regret, obviously!). The next best thing I might wanna do is buy a used PS2 again and hook it to my monitor to play GT3 and 4, but my wallet is really thin right now, so it´s GTPSP and maybe a cheap PC sim for the time being. The screen certainly big enough for gaming, though And I think I will be satisfied with GTPSP for quite a while, since I work on my PC for many hours a day, and enjoy taking a break on the sofa with my handhelds - the primary reason I love handhelds in general

 

[Nomino]

Personally, I think you are wasting your time with all this "theoretical nonsense". It's a handheld racing game - dumbed down accordingly. If you want to learn how to drive around courses properly, use the racing line option in the game. If you have no knowledge at all, reading up on gear ratios is not going to help you much at all. For the rest, in very simplistic terms:

- Soft suspension = absorbs the bumps better but can be sloppy in the corners
- Hard suspension = bounces around on the bumps more, but hugs flatter roads and can be more stable in the corners
- Lots of wing = higher downforce = more grip = reduced speed
- Less wing = lower downforce = less grip = increased speed
- Soft tyres = better grip, but wear out faster
- Hard tyres = lowers grip, but last longer

Sure, you can mess with things like ride height, brake bias, camber, toe-in/out, but at the end of the day, 90% of gamers would only ever mess with the things listed above because they are the only things that people will really notice any difference by tweaking.

On a GT on PSP though...that's not where the focus is, for obvious reasons. If you want to learn about that stuff, go ahead and get GTR on the PC and start with the basics.

 

[opladener]

GTR is pretty much undriveable without a proper wheel though, especially the high-powered cars.

Unless you turn the driving aids up, to the point where the car almost drives itself.


Getting a (used) PS2 and GT4 would IMHO be the best way to start

P.S. your screen needs to support HDCP in order to work with a PS3 IIRC

 

[G.T.Ace]

GTR is pretty much undriveable without a proper wheel though, especially the high-powered cars.

GTR2 yes, GTR Evo big fat WRONG.
The game is perfectly playable with a Pad, just like GTL (yes without driving aids).
Of course a wheel is faster and more precise.

LFS is a bit more problematic, because the deadzone settings suck.
But its still playable.

 

[Alonsomania]

GTR is undrivable without a wheel due to silly slip angles, which rFactor seems to suffer from as well. GTR Evo is much better that way, and more importantly, more enjoyable (to me atleast!).

I've been really surprised by iRacing. The physics are excellent but I race far too less to justify its price.

 

[Yenrot]

What's everyones preference when playing GT without a wheel? Manual or Automatic?

 

[Frederik82]

Thanks to all for your input!

If you want to learn how to drive around courses properly, use the racing line option in the game.

Well, the racing lines always seemed to much like "Drive HERE, dumbass" to me, and I end up concentrating on the line instead on the road, corners and all that.
I prefer just learning through trial and error You´re right on the "grey theory" part of course, I am just trying to get some facts behind why cars behave the way they do - just enough to understand a semi-sim game.

As G.T.Ace pointed out, the challenges in GTPSP will be a nice introduction as well, looking forward to these!

 

[G.T.Ace]

What's everyones preference when playing GT without a wheel? Manual or Automatic?

Manual.
The driving is more rewarding and its faster.

 

[opladener]

I was talking about GTR 1, i haven't played the newer ones (my PC sucks).
I haven't tried GTL without a wheel

GT PSP will be a nice introduction into more "realistic" racing games, though.
Order it from the UK, if you haven't already. Game prices in Germany are a huge ripoff !

 

[MarcoM]

Hi Frederik,

Nice 'opening' topic.

About the view to use. You should not have asked me. Actually I am in treatment because I cannot decide what to use. I find myself switching back and forward. Chase, dials only (the classic), cockpit or hood.

Right now I have my hood period. The hood view in GTpsp is different from all other gt games. It is fixed a the back of the car looking forward (ahum yead duh). I think I will use that view for starters in GTpsp. The cars will hopefully feel controllable and you can still look at the great car you're racing. But I might just use the bumper cam also for speed kicks.

I hope GT and racing games in general will not distract you too much from your study. Not meant to be patronizing, but I just know how enjoyable these racing games can be

 

[Frederik82]

I hope GT and racing games in general will not distract you too much from your study. Not meant to be patronizing, but I just know how enjoyable these racing games can be

Hehe, no worries One of the reasons I like racing games is that they can be played in short, intense bursts. I usually have my PSP on sleep during the day and play on it for half an hour during long working periods - refreshing for the mind as well as my back 👍 But the first two days are still reserved for more prolonged sessions, I really need that once or twice a year

 

[Tornado]

Personally, I think you are wasting your time with all this "theoretical nonsense". It's a handheld racing game - dumbed down accordingly.

I can't see how it would hurt to learn up about it if he wants to use GTM as an entrance into the genre as a whole.

 

[Frederik82]

Yeah, the reviews seem to say that the mechanics of GT4 are mostly intact in the game, so the basic rules of racing physics will still apply. Of course you learn it by doing it, but I think it´s a good idea to actually know WHY a car behaves a certain way, especially if I have almost zero knowledge on these mechanics so far I´m really looking forward to do both things - playing and learning - once it finally arrives.

 

[GTveteran]

Well you're certainly keen Frederik. Thats a good sign.

I'll start off with my preferences and beliefs about them for you. I use the bumper camera usually (cockpit cam in GT5P) because I feel it offers the nearest view to realistic. This was certainly the case with GT1 to 3. I didn't like the bonnet cam in GT4 because it was too high (on the roof).

For transmission I use manual in all instances allowable. It gives you more control over the engine and, as has been said, is faster on upshift and, possibly more crucially, downshift. Also if you time your downshifts correctly they actually help slow the car down faster as you brake but that's maybe a tad advanced for you at the moment. Don't worry though, you will learn.

I am of the belief though, that if a car if only available in reality with an automatic transmission then it should only be in the game, but that's just my opinion.

Now some racing 101 for you. I do not intend for this to be patronising to you in anyway. I'm just trying to give you an idea of some of the things to consider while trying out racing.

The racing line is usually the line of least resistance around a track. This means it is the line around the track which takes the least amount of effort for you to drive your car around a lap. It is entirely possible to learn the lines for tracks without the guides now included in games. In fact it will make you remember the tracks better.

One of the things I find key to being a good driver (both in the game and in reality) is to be smooth with your inputs. This helps to keep your car stable and more predictable.

 

[Frederik82]

Thanks for your input!

The racing line is usually the line of least resistance around a track. This means it is the line around the track which takes the least amount of effort for you to drive your car around a lap. It is entirely possible to learn the lines for tracks without the guides now included in games. In fact it will make you remember the tracks better.

One of the things I find key to being a good driver (both in the game and in reality) is to be smooth with your inputs. This helps to keep your car stable and more predictable.

Yeah, I actually enjoy driving without the racing line more, as I usually mostly drive time trials the ideal line becomes obvious very soon. I guess I will activate it once I memorized the track to see where I´m far off the ideal way of driving, but figuring out these things on my own is part of the fun and challenge. Among the more dedicated players of 2D shmups the opinion on "superplays" (very high score replays) is torn: Some say it´s necessary to score better, others say it spoils half the fun of exploring the game on your own. I´m certainly the latter type of gamer. Racing lines usually give me a much worse performance than when I memorize the track without them - I find them rather distracting, but can see how they can be helpful when trying to shave off seconds and miliseconds. I think driving lines might even frustrate newcomers since they already can see the perfect way of driving, and struggling to follow it strictly might be a lot less fun than starting off with a more relaxed mindset (these are my 2 cents on this subject, anyways).

As for smooth inputs - I´ve played Toca 2 PSP quite a lot and after a while started to really notice the different handling of the cars and got into the groove for each car. This moment of feeling like you´re working with the car rather than against it is very rewarding Now I don´t know how realistic the handling in that game is compared to GTPSP, but I was surprised how good this game felt even on something as limited as a handheld. This feeling of being in control of a machine is what I like about racing games the most, aside from trying to perfect lap times and figuring out strategies. That´s why I don´t mind a missing career mode - 35 tracks + variations and 800 cars will last me a very, very long time for a score/record oriented gamer like me

And actually, the vibe I´m getting from a lot of reviews and random gamers comments is that they think GTPSP is "slow", sterile and not flashy enough, compared to, say, Burnout, NFS or Ridge Racer. What little I have played in (semi)serious racing games so far is that to me it´s mostly about learning to handle different, monstrous cars around challenging tracks, trying to get better and better at it, not for the simple audiovisual shock value. I actually love how comparatively dry and clean this game looks, judging from gameplay footage and all that - the serious look, as opposed to more flashy arcade racers. The videos of NFS SHIFT looked impressive, with the rumbling cockpit view, the "fuzzy view" when you get hit, and the screaming presentation, but I prefer a more subdued presentation recently, usually even without any soundtrack, so that I can concentrate on the car sounds and the track alone. That might not be the general mainstream taste, but I´ve really starting to enjoy this less videogamey, more dry and realistic type of games.

 

[Frederik82]

Thanks for your input!

The racing line is usually the line of least resistance around a track. This means it is the line around the track which takes the least amount of effort for you to drive your car around a lap. It is entirely possible to learn the lines for tracks without the guides now included in games. In fact it will make you remember the tracks better.

One of the things I find key to being a good driver (both in the game and in reality) is to be smooth with your inputs. This helps to keep your car stable and more predictable.

Yeah, I actually enjoy driving without the racing line more, as I usually mostly drive time trials the ideal line becomes obvious very soon. I guess I will activate it once I memorized the track to see where I´m far off the ideal way of driving, but figuring out these things on my own is part of the fun and challenge. Among the more dedicated players of 2D shmups the opinion on "superplays" (very high score replays) is torn: Some say it´s necessary to score better, others say it spoils half the fun of exploring the game on your own. I´m certainly the latter type of gamer. Racing lines usually give me a much worse performance than when I memorized the track without them - I find them rather distracting, but can see how they can be helpful when trying to shave off seconds and miliseconds.

As for smooth inputs - I´ve played Toca 2 PSP quite a lot and after a while started to really notice the different handling of the cars and got into the groove for each car. This moment of feeling like you´re working with the car rather than against it is very rewarding Now I don´t know how realistic the handling in that game is compared to GTPSP, but I was surprised how good this game felt even on something as limited as a handheld. This feeling of being in control of a machine is what I like about racing games the most, aside from trying to perfect lap times and figuring out strategies. That´s why I don´t mind a missing career mode - 35 tracks + variations and 800 cars will last me a very, very long time for a score/record oriented gamer like me