Heel/Toe Downshift Problem

[GTPLam]

Hi for those who are consistent with their heel/toe downshift technique, how do you keep your brake pedal constant and keep it from fluctuating while blipping the throttle at the same time?

Every time I bend the right side of my foot to blip the throttle, I notice my big toe thumb that is holding the brake pedal will ease off the brake pedal a little and make it look like I'm pumping the brakes. How do I make my big toe stronger to hold the brakes steady or is the tiny fluctuations and pumping whilst blipping acceptable?

EDIT: Simply put, I just don’t want my brake pedal to be moving around while I’m blipping the throttle during heel/toe downshifting!

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

While I'd like to give you a simple "one trick" solution, I've been having the same and opposite problem, slightly, in my Accent. I've noticed, though, that it's getting better and better. The problem you have is not specific to GT5. It's actually a big part of all of motorsports. Those who can heel/toe will be much faster.

I'm 18, and have only been heel/toe downshifting for about a month, so I'm not an expert, BUT, I have never seen anyone else in my area do it, at all. Even trying this delicate technique puts you above the rest.


The main thing, though, is practice. The first time I tried it, I locked up the front right, and botched it up, a bit, by losing more speed than I would have gained. Since then, it's been getting better.

 

[Totzke8]

That is something you solve with practice for anything

 

[BJBEOSmitty]

Is the big toe big enough and strong enough to get the job done? I saw a video on YouTube of Ayrton Senna using much more than a toe. The position of his pedals may be quite different of course. Nice vid, it had a picture in picture of his footwork while the main picture was a on board camera showing his racing line.

I'm working at the moment and on my phone, somposting a direct link is tough. Apologies.

 

[Krizzay]

I always use the side of my foot in stead of my heel (allso in my real car on the track). I learned it that way, but it works just as good and is easyer for me to press the break consistently. Only side effect is it will make your shoes dirty in a real car

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I always use the side of my foot in stead of my heel (allso in my real car on the track). I learned it that way, but it works just as good and is easyer for me to press the break consistently. Only side effect is it will make your shoes dirty in a real car

This is also true. Imagine standing on your toe; doesn't work. In order to slow cars down, you have to stand on the brakes. A butterfly is too weak to stop a car. A rhinoceros will lock the brakes up. In the middle of both superlatives, are humans; strong enough to apply the brakes, but not so strong, that tapping them will lock them up.

 

[GTPLam]

These are some great points you guys made!

Well actually I don't seem to have a problem with heel/toe downshifting if I was using ABS1 as ABS1 does allow for the brake pedal to be fully depressed to the floor so I don't have to worry as much as holding the "position" of the brake pedal at a certain height compared to if using ABS OFF. But the real problem I have is when using ABS OFF where I need to hold the brake pedal at a certain "position" like 80% or 90% threshold I find it hard to keep it at that percent if I have to shift my foot a little to blip the throttle during heel/toe downshifting. For example if I'm pushing the brakes to 80% for the coming corner the instant I bend my foot to blip my big toe thumb fidgets a little up and down causing my brake pedal to drop a little here and there to like 79% or 78% (I notice this a lot if you look at the brake bar indicator on the TV screen when driving). I want to know how to keep my brake pedal at 80% constant.

I should've stated it another way, let me give it another shot at explaining it more clearly this time. Okay so imagine sitting on a seesaw effect (The right side of the seesaw end is the right side of your foot and the left side of the seesaw being the left side of your foot used for braking) if I blip with my right side the left side goes up the opposite way like a seesaw. Another way of looking at this or testing out what I mean is try braking your brake pedal to 50% and hold it there at 50% while blipping. Now notice as you begin to blip the throttle with your right side your toe thumb on the left side of your foot fidgets around a little and messes up your braking. It's so difficult to keep it at 50% "position".

I'm trying to find a vid that has a perfect example of what I'm talking about but am having a hard time doing so at the moment. I believe it was a segment off ISR during the commercials a guy is seen heel/toe downshifting inside a new racing rig product or something. But till I find it I'll make sure to edit it back in to the post when I do. I hope you guys can understand what I wrote it's the best I can explain till I find it

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

This is also true. Imagine standing on your toe; doesn't work. In order to slow cars down, you have to stand on the brakes. A butterfly is too weak to stop a car. A rhinoceros will lock the brakes up. In the middle of both superlatives, are humans; strong enough to apply the brakes, but not so strong, that tapping them will lock them up.

This advice still applies. Again, I've done this sort of braking in real life, on a track, with no ABS. It takes talent. It's almost always a choice, between smoother cornering (with heel/toe) or later braking (without heel/toe.)


If you try to be smooth and still brake at your later point, it takes a bit more finesse; which can still only be learned with practice.


The best thing, though, is to use more than just a tiny bit of the left side of your foot. Use about a quarter of your foot, for the brake pedal; the brake pedal's more important than the gas pedal, when braking.

 

[GTPLam]

Thank you MrMelancholy you have been the most helpful to me here by far, I hope to race with you one day so I can learn from your driving.

Anyway it would be wonderful if GTP could open up a section just solely dedicated to discussing driving techniques/methods and such

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Thank you MrMelancholy you have been the most helpful to me here by far, I hope to race with you one day so I can learn from your driving.

Anyway it would be wonderful if GTP could open up a section just solely dedicated to discussing driving techniques/methods and such

I second this.

Unfortunately, I have a DS3 controller, and only have the chance to heel-toe in a real car.

Regarding the GTP Section, I agree. I'm actually writing a small "Driver's Handbook" for the World Motorsports Association (Link in signature.) I'll stay subscribed here, and once I figure it out/finish it, I'll post the link.

My computer has been arguing; it just will not work. ;( I can't continue until it's fixed.

 

[GTPLam]

Wow that’s awesome, I’ll be looking forward to your contribution of the “Driver’s Handbook” someday!! It will be a nice addition to the lack of sources out there on the internet to help improving our knowledge of proper driving in this world!

Anyhow I’m going to reword some or the phrasing in my original post to make it less confusing as it already is for others to understand much easier

Edit: “Simply put, I just don’t want my brake pedal to be moving around while I’m blipping the throttle during heel/toe downshifting.”

 

[TheRealPhattyJ]

You could always try doing what i did when i taught myself to heel-toe with no outside instruction, even though it's the "wrong" way it works for me.

Heel on the brake, toes on the accelerator. At least for me there's much more strength and control.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

You could always try doing what i did when i taught myself to heel-toe with no outside instruction, even though it's the "wrong" way it works for me.

Heel on the brake, toes on the accelerator. At least for me there's much more strength and control.

I've never tried that. 👍 for creativity, but, I'm not sure how it will work. Certainly, a larger portion of the foot should be on the brake, but, the heel is a very non-precise part of the human body. That's one of the reasons why tippy-toeing is easier on the toes, and not on the heel; the heel is more like an American football (as you know the NFL) player, as compared to a toe, which is more like a ballerina.

 

[generationlost]

OP, I understand what you are saying and I think it's a matter of practice and experience to build up the muscle memory. There are two common heel-toe techniques I have seen. One is applying the brakes with the ball/toes of your foot and pivoting the heel in a to blip the throttle. Another is to apply the brakes with the left side of your foot and sliding/rolling the right side of the foot to reach the gas pedal in order to blip the throttle. Use whatever technique is most comfortable for you.


here are some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-3xIZK-Bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU

 

[GTPLam]

Another way to put this problem into perspective is how is one supposed to modulate the brake pedal or ease off the brakes during trail braking and blip at the same time? What if I need to double pump the brakes because I braked too late but find that my foot was still in the process of blipping?

I'm just getting immensely frustrated every time I try to heel/toe downshift especially when driving with ABSOFF. I always ease off the brakes when I sense wheel lock and pump it back to threshold but I can't do that anymore when I have to blip the throttle at the same time. It's like I either commit the foot entirely to focusing on brake control or none at all.

I'm just starting to think now that heel/toe downshift is the most nonsense unnecessary thing ever invented for motorsports or at least for GT5 that is. The benefits of heel/toe downshift just aren't worth it compared to the importance of focusing on brake control. But I'm sure someone out there has come across this problem before in real life as well. In terms of real life, it's like so far everything I've seen in vids from youtube, the internet and such, drivers just blip the throttle like its nothing and forget all about keeping control of the brake pedal at the same time. Maybe GT5 just has too sensitive brake physics

 

[1241Penguin]

You mean like this?:



Notice the braking in the NSX-R at 3:02 and 8:44. Seems like even the pros have to deal with this.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Gan-san time attack at Suzuka in the NSX, his heel/toe technique is one of the best.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Gan-san time attack at Suzuka in the NSX, his heel/toe technique is one of the best.

Those shoes must've made it mighty hard! I have a pair of "skater shoes" too, and they're way too thick for precise throttle control. Driving with shoes makes me want to take my shoes off, and only wear socks...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

But socks are prone to slip ... wear thin ballet shoes

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

But socks are prone to slip ... wear thin ballet shoes

Nah, if I ever win the lottery, I'm getting Alpinestars in red.