help, about car and snow.

[ddldave]

help, i live in minnesota and we get snow all the time in winter, and we get icy rain once in awhile, well there's icy rain today and my sister's car is a toyota camry and it's a front wheel drive.

well we live on top of a hill and we have to climb this really steep hill and it's all icy so it's really hard, well yesterday she tried going uphill but it got caught on ice and it was just stuck there so we had to reverse it all the way down the hill and park on the side. and well she's not that good of a driver either and today when she was going downhill she oversteered and plunked into a huge pile of snow and it got stuck and we tried reversing but it got caught on ice again and it won't reverse back and we had to have our neighbors pull our car out with their 4wd suv, very embarassing lol.

well does this happen to all front wheel drive cars? why are they so bad like this in snow and uphill and downhill? are rear wheel drives like this? i know 4 wheel drive is the ultimate car for winter, but what about rear wheel drive does this happen too?

and also help, why does this have to happen! why is it so hard to drive on ice snow like this on front wheel drive? well i don't understand.

i'm so scared that when i get my s2000, and if i go uphill, it might get caught on ice and it won't go up but just slide it's wheel against it, and i heard driving manaul uphill is a bitch too! i'm so scared! help me! what can i do?

does anybody live in icy snow and have to go uphill a lot of times? i'm not worry about downhill, it's just that my sister is a bad driver but i'm so scared about going uphill, i mean what if my car gets trapped on ice and it won't go up.

please tell me everything of what you think and what was your experience and what is the trick to go up and stuff like that, thanks.

 

[Rykon Zero]

(I think I'll leave now.)

 

[Azuremen]

...

Dude, please, PLEASE formulate your posts better. It is like reading one long run on sentence. Capital letters help out a bit, as does some proper punctuation...

How much actual driving experience do you have? How are you getting an S2000? It sounds like you've never driven at all really, so I doubt you having an S2000 would make a wise first car.

FWD in the is just fine, and certainly a bit easier to get around than an FR layout RWD because the weight is on the drive wheels. From what it sounds like, your sister's Camry got high centered, which can happen to any vehicle. Honestly, what makes a bigger difference in snow is tires, rather than drive train. That, and a driver with a smooth foot on gas and brake that understands the much lower limits provided by snow and ice.

You can't do anything to trick the snow. Its just a matter of having the right tires and the right throttle control. I deliver pizza in the snow, and there are some roads I simply avoid going up or down when ice and snow are severe. The bigger concern with the S2000 would be ground clearance and getting high centered on any built up snow. If you car does get trapped going up a hill, you have no choice but to go back down the hill by rolling it backwards or maybe spinning it around (provided you are good at turning a car around in a cramped space) and trying again or taking a different road.

You will die. Okay, anyways, a front wheel drive up hill, has the weight distribution set to the back, away from the drive wheels. A rear wheel drive will be better up hill, but I have no experience with manuals, so I can't help you there.

And you have zero driving experience. The back end on a RWD while going up a hill will just dance around and you'll have no traction anyhow. The extra 20% weight on the front of the car is far more than the amount lost during acceleration from weight transfer or the shift from going up the hill. Just an FYI. Or the front will get pushed around if there is much snow. FWD is pretty much always superior to RWD in the snow.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Thou art Tree'd.

 

[Azuremen]

Thou art Tree'd.

Thou art clueless. Read my post. Yours is hypothetical nonsense.

 

[ddldave]

...

Dude, please, PLEASE formulate your posts better. It is like reading one long run on sentence. Capital letters help out a bit, as does some proper punctuation...

How much actual driving experience do you have? How are you getting an S2000? It sounds like you've never driven at all really, so I doubt you having an S2000 would make a wise first car.

FWD in the is just fine, and certainly a bit easier to get around than an FR layout RWD because the weight is on the drive wheels. From what it sounds like, your sister's Camry got high centered, which can happen to any vehicle. Honestly, what makes a bigger difference in snow is tires, rather than drive train. That, and a driver with a smooth foot on gas and brake that understands the much lower limits provided by snow and ice.

You can't do anything to trick the snow. Its just a matter of having the right tires and the right throttle control. I deliver pizza in the snow, and there are some roads I simply avoid going up or down when ice and snow are severe. The bigger concern with the S2000 would be ground clearance and getting high centered on any built up snow. If you car does get trapped going up a hill, you have no choice but to go back down the hill by rolling it backwards or maybe spinning it around (provided you are good at turning a car around in a cramped space) and trying again or taking a different road.



And you have zero driving experience. The back end on a RWD while going up a hill will just dance around and you'll have no traction anyhow. The extra 20% weight on the front of the car is far more than the amount lost during acceleration from weight transfer or the shift from going up the hill. Just an FYI. Or the front will get pushed around if there is much snow. FWD is pretty much always superior to RWD in the snow.

azureman thanks a lot for your posts, well what does high centered mean? i have a idea what it means but i dont' exactly know if i'm correct so don't laugh at me if i'm wrong okay? Does it mean that all the weight stop help pushing your car up and it just stumbles in the center and when you drive, the wheel will only slide against the ice but the car won't move?

and well i've driven a car before, a automatic, it was the camry i was talking about. and well i certainly drive better than my sister, i don't go around a lot, i do have my license, i only drive around with my dad because i don't know directions to anywhere. and well yeah the hill is pretty big, it has room for 4 cars to drive through. and it's not small at all lol, there's a big drive up hill and then there's a circle with houses around the circle and it's pretty big too, and it's nice place to learn how to drift because there's so much space.

and what tires should i need? is the real life tires like the one in gran turismo 4? if real life tires is like that, then what's the best? n1-3, s1-3 or what?

 

[Rykon Zero]

Yeah, I'll bite. You win, Azuremen. As for your question, N tires are like normal road tires that use tread for traction. S tires use primarily heat to utilize grip. S tires are bad in cold weather. If at all, buy chains, or even snow use only tires. (basically the snow tires in GT4.)

 

[ddldave]

azureman can you teach me how to drive rear wheel drive on the snow? what do i need to do? what can i work on to make my driving better on the snow with it? you talk about losing traction and dance around, how do i prevent this? how do i stop this a bit more? is there anything else i need to know? thanks.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well, the reason your sisters car does that is 1. She's a bad driver. 2. She should get a decent set of snow tires for the winter, and 3. She's a bad driver.

And for "when you get your s2000" buy a set of wheels with summer tires, and put a set of dedicated snow tires on the stock wheels. Try to avoid hills the best you can, and it possible, get a bit of speed in a straight line and maintain a steady throttle, jerky movements make you lose grip.

The starting on a hill thing goes away after a week or 2 of driving, or even a day if you really try to learn it. Its not really that hard, its just kind of hard if you have absolutely no idea how to drive a manual car. In that case, you have no purpose being in a manual s2000 in the snow.

Going downhill sometimes is harder than uphill. Lots of times you gain a bit of momentum and it's hard to stop.


Just get into a manual car, learn to drive and then all your problems will be solved. It's really not that difficult, just go try it. And when it snows, go out to a parking lot and experiment.

AND DO NOT DRIFT IN YOUR CIRCLE DRIVEWAY THING!.

EDIT: When you car gets "high centered" it basically sits on the snow like a big snow-shoe and doesn't sink down to the ground. That = no grip because you car is barely touching the ground.

 

[Azuremen]

azureman thanks a lot for your posts, well what does high centered mean? i have a idea what it means but i dont' exactly know if i'm correct so don't laugh at me if i'm wrong okay? Does it mean that all the weight stop help pushing your car up and it just stumbles in the center and when you drive, the wheel will only slide against the ice but the car won't move?

and well i've driven a car before, a automatic, it was the camry i was talking about. and well i certainly drive better than my sister, i don't go around a lot, i do have my license, i only drive around with my dad because i don't know directions to anywhere. and well yeah the hill is pretty big, it has room for 4 cars to drive through. and it's not small at all lol, there's a big drive up hill and then there's a circle with houses around the circle and it's pretty big too, and it's nice place to learn how to drift because there's so much space.

and what tires should i need? is the real life tires like the one in gran turismo 4? if real life tires is like that, then what's the best? n1-3, s1-3 or what?

First and foremost, tires in GT4 are modeled like crap. As is alot of the rest of the game, so don't relate it often to real life. I use moderately decent all season tires, Falken Ziex. Though, roads are cleared pretty quickly here, so its not as much an issue. I have thought about getting some studded snow tires so I can make my deliveries a bit faster and safer though, on those bad days.

I meant about turning around in tight spaces is doing a 180 in a single lane from a near standstill on snow. Learning how to control a slide in the snow is handy, but better left to large parking lots at 2am than streets with houses.

High centered is where snow gets under the chassis and basically holds it up so the drive wheels can't make contact with the ground effectively. In this situation, you can't do much besides dig out under the car or have someone tow you out.

And on driving experience, how many miles/years have you driven? I average about 25,000 miles a year in a place that has all four seasons, along with auto-cross and track time. From what you are saying, it sounds like you just recently got you license and have a few hundred miles logged perhaps?

Yeah, I'll bite. You win, Azuremen. As for your question, N tires are like normal road tires that use tread for traction. S tires use primarily heat to utilize grip. S tires are bad in cold weather. If at all, buy chains, or even snow use only tires. (basically the snow tires in GT4.)

Chains are rarely needed, ever. I pretty much hate the people that use them because they are clueless tards that put them on in an inch of snow and then leave them on after it melts or is cleared and trash the roads.

azureman can you teach me how to drive rear wheel drive on the snow? what do i need to do? what can i work on to make my driving better on the snow with it? you talk about losing traction and dance around, how do i prevent this? how do i stop this a bit more? is there anything else i need to know? thanks.

I can't teach you anything, but I can give some advice. The only way you'll learn how to do something is to do it. Go get in a stick and drive it around. Driving on snow has the same basic elements regardless of the drivetrain: smooth, gradual inputs combined with all around slower speeds. For a RWD, maybe put some weight in the trunk with sand bags or such, and just learn to be smooth. But thats a matter of practice and learning your car and the conditions.

 

[ddldave]

ok thanks a lot perfect balance i should try a manual sometime, my sister's bf was going to teach me how to drive manual along tiem ago but i turn it down because i was scared i might screw up his nice car. he got a acura integra gs-r with jdm front end conversion as well as type-r conversion and it's turbocharged 300hp. well i heard that a clutch costs a lot to replace, like 1000 usd, and well did you think i did wrong to turn down his offer? you think i should ask him next time to teach me? he's the only one i know that have a manual car that can actually teach me, my other freinds wouldn't let me drive their cars for sure because they're not really my friends.

and what good beginner FR car do you think i should get?
i wanted either AE86, FC3S, or S14. these are the only FR car used ones that i know because i watch drifting on youtube. but they're soooo hard to find one here in minnesota, very hard to find even a used one. i don't think i should get s2000 anymore because i'm scared i might screw up so i might get a less costly car to try out first. so yeah man.

 

[ddldave]

First and foremost, tires in GT4 are modeled like crap. As is alot of the rest of the game, so don't relate it often to real life. I use moderately decent all season tires, Falken Ziex. Though, roads are cleared pretty quickly here, so its not as much an issue. I have thought about getting some studded snow tires so I can make my deliveries a bit faster and safer though, on those bad days.

I meant about turning around in tight spaces is doing a 180 in a single lane from a near standstill on snow. Learning how to control a slide in the snow is handy, but better left to large parking lots at 2am than streets with houses.

High centered is where snow gets under the chassis and basically holds it up so the drive wheels can't make contact with the ground effectively. In this situation, you can't do much besides dig out under the car or have someone tow you out.

And on driving experience, how many miles/years have you driven? I average about 25,000 miles a year in a place that has all four seasons, along with auto-cross and track time. From what you are saying, it sounds like you just recently got you license and have a few hundred miles logged perhaps?



Please keep your nonsense to yourself; you've made three posts in this thread and two of them contribute absolutely nothing.

wait, so you're able to drive your very own car while doing pizza delivery? do you get paid well in tip? how much you even make a hour? is it hard to get the position to deliver pizza's?

 

[Perfect Balance]

ok thanks a lot perfect balance i should try a manual sometime, my sister's bf was going to teach me how to drive manual along tiem ago but i turn it down because i was scared i might screw up his nice car. he got a acura integra gs-r with jdm front end conversion as well as type-r conversion and it's turbocharged 300hp. well i heard that a clutch costs a lot to replace, like 1000 usd, and well did you think i did wrong to turn down his offer? you think i should ask him next time to teach me? he's the only one i know that have a manual car that can actually teach me, my other freinds wouldn't let me drive their cars for sure because they're not really my friends.

and what good beginner FR car do you think i should get?
i wanted either AE86, FC3S, or S14. these are the only FR car used ones that i know because i watch drifting on youtube. but they're soooo hard to find one here in minnesota, very hard to find even a used one. i don't think i should get s2000 anymore because i'm scared i might screw up so i might get a less costly car to try out first. so yeah man.

For a beginner FR car, get a miata. More reliable than any of the cars you posted, probably cheaper, more fuel economic, and one of the best cars to learn how to drive, it's very well balanced and easy to control.

As for the manual car, if he has a car like that, it may be one of the hardest cars to learn to drive manual on, as it might have a really grabby high performance clutch. But, clutches don't cost that much (mine cost $80) and there's almost no chance whatsoever of you messing up a car or wearing out the clutch just from learning how to drive manual.


EDIT: If that's your only option though, DO IT. Even if you don't master it, it will help you understand a LOT better about everything we've talked about.

 

[Azuremen]

Your first car should be a piece of crap FWD. Why? Because you have nothing to benefit from RWD till you understand the fundamental basics to driving.

I started autocrossing in a Toyota Tercel, a 84 HP 2000 lb fwd car with a 4 speed manual. I still miss that car because it was so cheap to run and maintain, while still being fun to toss around on gravel roads.

On the pizza delivery bit, I make okay money doing it right now, but there are certainly better jobs out there.

If you want to learn more, go pick up some car magazines, use google, and just go out and drive. And for the love of god, do not read Super Street. That magazine fails at everything in life, hard.

And please, PLEASE, start posting in a more proper fashion. This isn't AIM or MSN; please use capital letters and perhaps a bit more structure. Right now, your posts are a bit hard to follow and, honestly, remind me of a 13 year olds.

 

[ddldave]

For a beginner FR car, get a miata. More reliable than any of the cars you posted, probably cheaper, more fuel economic, and one of the best cars to learn how to drive, it's very well balanced and easy to control.

As for the manual car, if he has a car like that, it may be one of the hardest cars to learn to drive manual on, as it might have a really grabby high performance clutch. But, clutches don't cost that much (mine cost $80) and there's almost no chance whatsoever of you messing up a car or wearing out the clutch just from learning how to drive manual.


EDIT: If that's your only option though, DO IT. Even if you don't master it, it will help you understand a LOT better about everything we've talked about.

dude wtf man, i was looking at the pricing on that thing on mazda website, WTF MAN! it's around 21-27k depending on the type. i mean 166 horsepower. but with that much money man, that's a brand new honda civic si sedan right there, nearly 200hp 6 speed man.

 

[Perfect Balance]

dude wtf man, i was looking at the pricing on that thing on mazda website, WTF MAN! it's around 21-27k depending on the type. i mean 166 horsepower. but with that much money man, that's a brand new honda civic si sedan right there, nearly 200hp 6 speed man.

Not a new Miata. Like 89-98 model.


I just thought since you said 86, s14, fc, you would expect me to say an old car.

EDIT: Well, you're gonna get an S2000 remember? A miata shouldn't be out of reach then.

EDIT #2: Don't ever buy a new car, it's a waste of money.

 

[ddldave]

yeah perfect balance, i'm planning to buy a used AP2 for maybe around 20-25k. what pricing should you think it be if it's in good condition and less than 20k mileage on a AP2?

 

[Azuremen]

dude wtf man, i was looking at the pricing on that thing on mazda website, WTF MAN! it's around 21-27k depending on the type. i mean 166 horsepower. but with that much money man, that's a brand new honda civic si sedan right there, nearly 200hp 6 speed man.

...

Okay... its humbling time.

You need to learn stuff, now. Do not get a NEW car period for a first car. Ever. You'll get raped on insurance, likely destroy it, and then have car payments on a car that doesn't exist. Awesome, I know.

Secondly, a Miata will be 10 times more fun to drive than a Civic Si.

Go look at getting like a 89 Miata or something. Maybe an early 90's.

You are stuck on numbers, the name, and thats about it. Get a slower, modest car first if you ever want to drive fast. You have lower limits to push and thus get to experience them without putting yourself in a situation to die.

While you claim to better than your sister, you knowledge of both cars and driving is so vastly limited its some what scary. Now, I know you want to learn, but please post better and don't try our patience so much or we will simply get annoyed.

 

[Perfect Balance]

yeah perfect balance, i'm planning to buy a used AP2 for maybe around 20-25k. what pricing should you think it be if it's in good condition and less than 20k mileage on a AP2?

You shouldn't plan on an s2000 for another 2 years at least IMO.

You have nearly 0 experience in driving. I have over a year and I knew a lot more than you when I started out. I would not go out and buy an s2000 right now, even if I could afford it.

And by that time, who knows what the prices will be like.

EDIT: An early 90's miata's limits are surprisingly high. Tuned up, there is few cars that can keep up in the corners.

 

[ddldave]

do you think i can train myself with a logitech g25 on gran turismo 5 prologue?

 

[Perfect Balance]

No.

 

[Azuremen]

do you think i can train myself with a logitech g25 on gran turismo 5 prologue?

No. There is no substitute for real driving. You can study theory in a video game, and maybe come to better understand racing lines, but as far as real world driving goes, its very different.

There is just too much a racing sim with a wheel can't properly convey.

And do not get a nice car till you have track time and such; you'll simply end up killing yourself. I am glad I had 3 years to learn driving on a piece of crap before I got my MR2, because if my MR2 had been my first car, I would have destroyed it, and probably part of my body.

 

[ddldave]

i do understand racing lines a bit man. i played gran turismo 4 and went for license tests, i got a lot more silvers than bronze, and i got like 2 gold medals. and nice man a mr2, it's hard to find here in minnesota also.

by the way, why is new car waste of money again? my dad never likes used cars because he always think there's something wrong with it.

 

[Azuremen]

i do understand racing lines a bit man. i played gran turismo 4 and went for license tests, i got a lot more silvers than bronze, and i got like 2 gold medals. and nice man a mr2, it's hard to find here in minnesota also.

by the way, why is new car waste of money again? my dad never likes used cars because he always think there's something wrong with it.

Because a new car effectively loses 20% of its value the second it leaves the car lot. Thats why. Your dad is just paranoid.

You "understand" racing lines, great. Stop relating video games to anything in the real world, its comical. I have 72 golds and 8 silvers in GT4, if counting matters though.

Basically, you should learn how to drive on the cheapest car possible. Like a 1994 Tercel, which you could pick up for a few hundred dollars. The kind of car you can bounce off curbs, get dents in, and chip the paint up with. And then go trash it on dirt roads and such.

 

[Perfect Balance]

i do understand racing lines a bit man. i played gran turismo 4 and went for license tests, i got a lot more silvers than bronze, and i got like 2 gold medals. and nice man a mr2, it's hard to find here in minnesota also.

by the way, why is new car waste of money again? my dad never likes used cars because he always think there's something wrong with it.

Lets say you want to get a car that you can take to a track on weekends and then drive around town normally.

You can buy a 25k Miata. Or you can buy a 3k 240sx, put a 2 k sr20det in it. Tune it for another 5k, and then you can get a nice suspension for it, and still have a huge amount of money left over for making the body perfect so it doesn't look like a beater.

You can sculpt the car EXACTLY how you want it, with no extras that you don't want, and you'll end up with the exact car that you want, and it will perform loads better, and considering how new cars look today, look much better too.

If you don't want to tune a car, for 25k you could get a very good car that will be much better than a new car for that same price.

I'm not sure about prices for european cars, but 25k would get you a great luxury car if you want to go that way.

 

[ddldave]

ok thanks man, i guess i'll try to find one then, problem is i can't find those cars really easily, the only cars that i can easily find here are maybe dc2's and eg6's.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Then wait until you do. Ask people, look in newspapers, check the internet, ebay. These aren't rare cars.

EDIT: And its 5am.


Goodnight everyone.

 

[ddldave]

Then wait until you do. Ask people, look in newspapers, check the internet, ebay. These aren't rare cars.

EDIT: And its 5am.


Goodnight everyone.

hey man, what car do you drive? and the AP2 is cheaper than i thought man, it can go as low as 18,000 for a super low mileage one. hey also what do you think about a rsx type-s?

 

[Wolfe]

ddldave, you're going to have a hard time getting anything light and 2WD up that hill in snow/ice. FWD and RWD are equally capable in winter conditions, and they both fail miserably next to a good AWD/4WD system. Also, as Azuremen said, tires are probably the biggest factor, followed by weight (assuming a comparison between two 2WDs or two AWD/4WDs).

In any case, unless it's 100% necessary for you to make it up that hill, I wouldn't worry too much about it. As I'm sure you've noticed, many of us midwesterners get by with less-than-ideal winter vehicles.

As for the talk about what you should get for a first car, Perfect Balance and Azuremen pretty much have you covered -- something relatively cheap and old that won't be an emotional and financial disaster if wrecked. Although I would definitely steer you clear of the popular Japanese imports you mentioned ("AE86, FC3S, or S14"), I don't exactly subscribe to the idea of "FWD and as cheap as possible," either, as Azuremen is recommending in the Tercel.

If you can find something you like from the '90s or earlier that makes less than 200hp and costs less than $2000, you'll probably be in good shape. That's about where everyone I know started.

 

[Joey D]

I don't really agree that AWD is better in poor weather conditions. My grandma owns a AWD Saturn Vue that I drive quite frequently and this being Michigan I end up in less than ideal weather conditions from time to time. In the snow it helps a little but on ice all you do is spin four tires instead of two. Most AWD vehicles come with sub-par all-season tires from the factory so you really are not getting the benefit from the system...I'm sure it is a different story with better tires.

RWD is worthless in the snow, I had a Blazer that went through 5 winters, I even had some of the best all-seasons that would fit on the truck. By the end I was used to driving it, but it still liked to kick the tail out around corners when I wasn't even trying to. That is something you do not want to experience in traffic. Now I have a FWD Mini Cooper which is awesome in the snow, aside from a little bit a FWD walk.

But I suppose most of this has to do with tire choices, if you put winter tires on something it will be better no matter what. I know people who drive their Firebird's all winter long just by swapping out the tires. As soon as I can afford them I will be getting them for the Cooper.

Look at it this way, you wouldn't wear your running shoes out to shovel the driveway after a 10 inch snow fall, just like you wouldn't wear you winter boots to the beach in July. The same goes for your car.

Oh and playing a video game is about the worse thing you can do for your driving...it makes you think you are better than you are and does NOT give you any real world experience.