Help driving the LMP cars.

[Grayman222]

I took a quick search and read most of the threads that appeared relevant. I haven't read the long thread on group-c physics yet though.

Normally I just drive unmodified cars on N2s for fun or whatever tire is appropriate for winning sim mode races, but n2s all the rest of times.

I want some advice on driving LMP race cars. I cannot keep them on the track without a huge amount of practice on that particular track and luck. I've been doing the real world track series and am done up until nurburging in A-spec using a minolta(no engine upgrades, tuned with duck's settings) and cheap pit strategy(not pitting).

I drive with a driving force pro in 900 degree mode with the lower force feedback(ingame options are strong ff, no assist, sim mode) in real life do the car's steering wheels lock at 180 and should i do the same?

For the time being i've been using TCS just to remove one element from my laps and make progress possible.

I crash or destroy my car on almost every corner the first time i take it. I'm spending a lot of time brushing into grass then spinning out from that. The margins of error are so much lower than my normal driving even on R3s.

Should I spend more time coasting through a long corner not being on the gas pedal? Do I have to be absolutely certain of myself and steer very hard and early to keep lines at high speed and does that relate to my wheel settings from above?

What should I practice specifically to go fast?

I was trying the ring tonight(pescalo duck's settings softened for the ring) and can't get through a lap decently at all. I can in a road car though. When I am getting it right though and zooming through the sections it feels great but then I don't turn tight enough and go off the track somewhere. This is how most of the real world tracks go. I suspect i'd have less problems with the original ones since i've been on them since GT1 but my driving still isn't great.

I'll check this thread in the morning.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Have you done all the license tests? The one I´m particularly thinking about the the one where you drive the Nissan R92CP on a section of Le Mans. If you want to learn how to handle a Group C or LMP/GTP car, I recommend you to go for a gold on that test.
Otherwise I can give you a few pointers settingswise, here and here. All those settings are however made for endurance racing, hence the strong TCS settings.

 

[Kent]

Well,
I'll be the first to tell you that I don't like Duck's settings.
I'm hard on the guy- I know.
The thing is, I just don't like the settings. They always have this one-size-fits-all feel to them.
The bound is always softer than the rebound (and even front to rear). The toe is always perverted somehow and the ride height is so out of whack I have a hard time believing the settings are even use-able.
Just how I feel of course.
Btw, if you have a link to his settings you are using, please post it. 👍

So with that in mind...
I suggest you setup the "Default" settings in the settings menu for each part. Then go in and practice driving the car on the Ring with those settings.
Then, once you've got a car picked, post your progress and we will all come together to give you a new set of settings.
(don't forget that all of duck's setups are tested and built for Midfield, which isn't exactly a Nurburgring simulator)

So to recap really simply...
Decide on one car and practice with it on default settings. Meanwhile, post the car and someone here (maybe me) will come up with Ring settings for you to try out. 👍

Finally, I doubt it would be a bad idea to use your wheel in the "least turning needed" mode (I don't know much about that though since I use the DS2).

Good luck, hope this helps and likewise, I hope we can help you later today after you've taken the advice posted so far.

 

[AMG.]

....
I drive with a driving force pro in 900 degree mode with the lower force feedback(ingame options are strong ff, no assist, sim mode) in real life do the car's steering wheels lock at 180 and should i do the same?
....

That's highly personal. I've got the same wheel and I tried 900 once or twice and cannot handle it. I love to 200 setting despite others telling me to use 900. So there you go, try both and use the one you're most comfortable with.
Wrt LMPs I can after a lot of practice deal better with these than I could a while ago. I'm not an expert though. Nurb isn't exactly the easiest track to learn how to drive LMPs. Practice is the way to go and build up those skills.
Good luck in mastering these cars.👍

AMG.

 

[BobK]

That's highly personal. I've got the same wheel and I tried 900 once or twice and cannot handle it. I love to 200 setting despite others telling me to use 900. So there you go, try both and use the one you're most comfortable with.
Wrt LMPs I can after a lot of practice deal better with these than I could a while ago. I'm not an expert though. Nurb isn't exactly the easiest track to learn how to drive LMPs. Practice is the way to go and build up those skills.
Good luck in mastering these cars.👍

AMG.

Interesting. As you say, it's highly personal. Myself, I use 900 degree mode. I find it gives me a much finer level of control. I find I seldom have to turn the wheel much more than 90 degrees anyway, the notable exceptions being the extremely tight hairpins such as Monaco and Costa di Amalfi. If I find myself trying to turn the wheel more than 180 degrees, it means I'm trying to take the corner way too fast.

Race cars in real life do have quicker steering than street machines, generally speaking. I don't know how much quicker, but I have seen a picture of Jim Clarke with his wrists crossed from which I assume the F1's of the day had at least 360 degrees.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Another thing:

It doesn't matter wether your DP stands on Beginner or Simulation, Pro or whatever, these options are for the DF and not the DFP

 

[Kent]

Thanks for cleaning the double post famine (PC and net were slow for me this morning and wires must have crossed).

Now to Grayman222, I have a new message.
After testing with the Pescarolo on the Ring...

All you need to do to the car is...
(using Default settings)
Lower Springs by 5 on front and rear.

Adjust transmission to fit the course (I simply move the final drive and nothing else).

Lower the rear dowforce to be slightly lower than it is... All that rearward bias on downforce isn't needed, simply having about 10 extra on the rear is enough (although 12 to 15 isn't a bad idea if you're still getting used to the course and car).

Finally, reduce driving aids to 0 all the way around and apply TCS as you need it (start with TCS 1 and work your way up until it is just right).

That should do the trick.
The Pesky (I used the V6 version) handled the Ring quite well with that exact setup (which is about 85% stock).

Also, remember that when it comes to the Ring, settings will not save you.
Take things slow and stay off the grass at all cost.
Try to remember that the car is good enough to win with you putting in a clean lap even if the clean lap isn't a fast lap.

Good luck!

PS. if you insist on using 0 TCS then your settings will need some actual refinement beyond what is mentioned above.
(In any case, drop those Midfield created and tested settings- they will do you no good on the Ring!)

 

[CRXnut]

Use ASM (oh no he said the A word ) until you learn the track and get used to the speed. When I strated driving LMP cars I had mine setup to 3 3 3

 

[Kent]

I strongly suggest you do not use ASM.
ASM has a funny way of kicking on as you reach the point where you need the car to be more predictable than ever.
Once that ASM hits it can really ruin the turn.

Of course, I've run with plenty of racers who will resort to ASM in a one-sided fashion (can't remember if it's ASM under or over). That's a great trick for cars that don't seem to be turning well no matter what your settings.

However, on an LMP, your turning is excellent and so is your braking... So much so that you may oversteer quite often and that's why I say not to use ASM. While using ASM on an LMP you are taking away your own ability to walk the tight rope of LMP limits.

My best suggestion is simply this...
Pick a car and learn to drive that car as an individual. Learn the character of the car and adjust your driving to fit the car, don't adjust the car to fit your driving. 👍

 

[Mt. Lynx]

My best suggestion is simply this...
Pick a car and learn to drive that car as an individual. Learn the character of the car and adjust your driving to fit the car, don't adjust the car to fit your driving. 👍

I actually advice the opposite! Pick any car of your liking, drive it, and then adapt it to you own style, to get that extra little oomph!! out of it! To really get to a cars limit, you have to somewhat adapt it to your own style.

Now, I actually don´t practise this "philosophy" myself, since I hardly ever tune a car. If a car comes with adjustable parts however, I adjust things to my liking. This is common practise on any racetrack around the world!

Allthough Kent´s advice is a little flawed in my eyes, it really is a good advice if you are not acustomed to a car and or track. If you can get a clean and fast lap in a stock brick, just imagine how fast it will be when you have adjusted the brick to your own preferances!

 

[Metar]

Thanks for cleaning the double post famine (PC and net were slow for me this morning and wires must have crossed).

Now to Grayman222, I have a new message.
After testing with the Pescarolo on the Ring...

All you need to do to the car is...
(using Default settings)
Lower Springs by 5 on front and rear.

Adjust transmission to fit the course (I simply move the final drive and nothing else).

Lower the rear dowforce to be slightly lower than it is... All that rearward bias on downforce isn't needed, simply having about 10 extra on the rear is enough (although 12 to 15 isn't a bad idea if you're still getting used to the course and car).

Finally, reduce driving aids to 0 all the way around and apply TCS as you need it (start with TCS 1 and work your way up until it is just right).

That should do the trick.
The Pesky (I used the V6 version) handled the Ring quite well with that exact setup (which is about 85% stock).

Also, remember that when it comes to the Ring, settings will not save you.
Take things slow and stay off the grass at all cost.
Try to remember that the car is good enough to win with you putting in a clean lap even if the clean lap isn't a fast lap.

Good luck!

PS. if you insist on using 0 TCS then your settings will need some actual refinement beyond what is mentioned above.
(In any case, drop those Midfield created and tested settings- they will do you no good on the Ring!)

I like those settings (tested on the Judd/C60 car)...

And the settings Duck posted aren't enough, even when running midfield. Example: Caterham. His time is 1'19, while even with the poor settings I made up from my had, I had 1'13ers. His settings don't seems to really fit that car, which leads me to think they're formula-based.

 

[Alfaholic]

Hmmm. Lots of good advice. Particularly car setup. If the car is doing unexpected things like turning too tightly so you keep running up the grass on the inside of the turn, then it's a good idea to tune that tendency out in the settings... give yourself a bit more understeer by taking off a touch of front wing. Or go the opposite direction and loosen the front anti-roll bar. This will give the front more grip but make it slower to respond to the steering.

If you keep getting wheels on the grass while braking for a corner, or find the car fidgety when braking and difficult to keep straight, then try increasing the tightness of the diff on the braking side. I often find it also helps to loosen the acceleration side a bit. A single spinning wheel on the exit of a corner is easier to control than two spinning wheels and oversteer. Loosening the accel side in other words makes the car less sensitive to changes in throttle when exiting a corner.

In other words, tune the car to stop catching you out.

Setup is more important on the LMPs in my opinion because things happen so much faster. In a road car, even a fast one, you can often react to little unexpected twitches of under or oversteer and contain them. In an LMP car, the speed at which you are travelling often means that any twitch will throw you a significant distance off your line before you can react, so twitches are best avoided in the first place. Car setup is very important for this. The car should be as predictable as possible. Tune for driveability and not speed. The other significant factor in this is your approach to driving the car. With road cars I tend to drive a bit by feel... I have braking markers and so on but sort of use them in an advisory manner. If I feel that I am three feet offline I will brake a tad earlier or later, and I will start playing with the throttle as soon as the car is settled into the corner, and then make throttle and steering adjustments to control my exit line. In an LMP car this approach makes me crash. Often. For me to drive the LMPs or even worse the Group Cs, I have to approach the track in a strictly regimented way without deviation. Hit the brakes HERE. While braking aim for that tree / post / red bit of tyre wall until rear tyre crosses small bump in road and release brakes, hesitate, TURN. Move eyes to focus on vanishing point / post in distance / furthest visible point of inside kerb. Wait until corner opens, stare at left side of bridge in distance and smoothly apply power NOW, having faith that the car will go where you want it because it did the lap before, and the one before that, etc.

As for the 900 degree wheel, I think you will find that in LMPs and Group C cars, like formula 1 cars, the steering is high geared such that the driver can go from full left lock to full right lock without removing a hand from the steering wheel. Therefore I would suppose that 200 degree mode on a DFP would be more realistic for the racing cars than 900 degree mode, but I don't know for sure because I do not own a DFP, and I have never driven a proper LMP car.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

As for the 900 degree wheel, I think you will find that in LMPs and Group C cars, like formula 1 cars, the steering is high geared such that the driver can go from full left lock to full right lock without removing a hand from the steering wheel. Therefore I would suppose that 200 degree mode on a DFP would be more realistic for the racing cars than 900 degree mode, but I don't know for sure because I do not own a DFP, and I have never driven a proper LMP car.

Actually not advisable at all. The 200 degree mode makes the DFP wheel shutter like mad, and steering is almost impossible when using a LMP or Group C car. The 900 mode is by far the better one when it comes to these high end cars. Like someone else mentioned here earlier, you seldom need to turn the wheel more than 90 degrees anyway.

 

[Grayman222]

Team666,
I think I am done all the license tests but only with gold and silver. I'll take your posts into consideration when picking a car.

Kent,
i'll try defaults for awhile but also use your tweaks from post 7. I'll have to check which version was the v6 when i get back to the ps2 later. I want to improve all around, but for the particular race i need to do a 6'12 and a 6'06 on lap 2 to win according to b-spec. I don't know if I can hit these just by driving clean yet. I had a 6'50 but i don't know how much time was spent mowing the lawn or turning the parked car around.

Alfaholic,
I'll have to try and adopt that less feeling based driving style for corners that I am having trouble with and learn a formulamatic(is this a word?) way of taking them. After my experiance with infinion I can see that having faith that the car will do what it should would have me accelerating out of corners before I can see the exit fully. By feeling I was exiting corners and able to hold at the inside wall because I didn't accelerate early enough for fear of hitting the outside wall.

AMG., thanks, nurb is just one of the only ones left to learn. I could go practice suzuka endlessly but I think that would only make me better at suzuka.

As was asked for,
Duck's settings thread (c60 judd and minolta settings i've used)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67969

Nurburging changes for those settings:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2265207&postcount=8

I'll take the advice from this thread when I get to the game after some homework.

team666 #13,
I had that problem with the dfp when I quickly tried the 200 lock as well but thought I could try to get over it. Turning the wheel 90 degrees(of 900) though there are corners like the degner curve at suzuka(boy did that take a long time to look up) leaves me going off track even at speeds that seem acceptable. the ring also has a lot of those corners for me.

 

[shabba]

If I may add another suggestion, how familiar are you with Nurb? I found the easiest way was to take a slower car and run the track until you were very familiar with it - that way you can anticipate the corners. Then move up to the LMP cars and do a nice, easy free run. At this stage you know the corners from your previous practice, and you can then begin to fine tune your technique and settings with the LMP.

 

[|ncary]

Also, remember the gear you were in and where the revs were (just listen for the engine note) for each particular corner, then put it in the same gear and brake to that same engine note for the same corner next lap.

What a train wreck of a sentence haaaha ^^

 

[Kent]

Mind you, these are his midfield settings.

Suspension
-Spring Rate: 18.0 / 17.7
-Ride Height: 55 / 75
-Bound: 7 / 7
-Rebound: 8 / 8
-Camber: 2.0 / 1.5
-Toe: 0 / -1
-Stabilizers: 3 / 3

LSD
-Initial: 10
-Acceleration: 40
-Deceleration: 20

Downforce
Amount: 63 / 88

Driving Aids
-ASM Oversteer: 0
-ASM Understeer: 0
-TCS: 4

Brake Controller
-Brakes: 9 / 9

Transmission
Autoset 24.

Ballast
-Weight: 0
-Location:0

The Ring Subject...

Soften the springs by 4, and soften each damper by 1.

(Info provide by grayman222)

The Springs are hard, I mean really hard. Even when you take away 5 on the springs you'll be well over 10 front and rear. For a 900kg LMP that's still hard on the Ring.
The next thing that stands out to me is the ride height. "20" difference makes for some serious changes under braking. The LMP itself is designed to corner well on even RH settings. Manipulating 20mm of difference would not positively contribute more than a different setting. But with use of the +20 you can distort the balance of the LMP and possibly change the basic character of the LMP's handling (especially under braking).

Finally the stabilizers stuck out because of the setup they were paired with. Those stabilizers should mimic the overall suspension setup. Duck's Pescarolo had 3/3 on a 15+ spring setting.

The other elements in the suspension seemed like they could work just fine (although I wouldn't follow that model).

So with that said... Let me go find you some settings GrayMan222.
Just do me the honor of trying them and responding.
(back shortly ... within 2 hours)
Later.

 

[Grayman222]

Have fun with the settings Kent, you can take your time testing them because I will be at class for four hours.

If I may add another suggestion, how familiar are you with Nurb? I found the easiest way was to take a slower car and run the track until you were very familiar with it - that way you can anticipate the corners. Then move up to the LMP cars and do a nice, easy free run. At this stage you know the corners from your previous practice, and you can then begin to fine tune your technique and settings with the LMP.

I am pretty good at taking road cars around the course. Of course I have a lot more reaction time in them.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Team666,
I think I am done all the license tests but only with gold and silver. I'll take your posts into consideration when picking a car.

Do so! And feel free to use the setups too! If you are only doing hotlaps, then reduce TCS to 2 or 3 for a faster lap.

team666 #13,
I had that problem with the dfp when I quickly tried the 200 lock as well but thought I could try to get over it. Turning the wheel 90 degrees(of 900) though there are corners like the degner curve at suzuka(boy did that take a long time to look up) leaves me going off track even at speeds that seem acceptable. the ring also has a lot of those corners for me.

Hmmm, I don´t have that problem really. I only drive 900 degrees, and I have no problems with the Degnars 1 or 2. Loews at Monaco is however a different story. That requires virtually 180 degrees of turning. I think the key to driving with 900 degree mode is simply getting used to it. If you want to practise I recommend you to use a fast, but easy to control car, like a DTM car. I can recommend this! Go to the Nürburgring and drive until you are confident enough to step up to faster cars.

 

[Doggie]

If I may add another suggestion, how familiar are you with Nurb? I found the easiest way was to take a slower car and run the track until you were very familiar with it - that way you can anticipate the corners. Then move up to the LMP cars and do a nice, easy free run. At this stage you know the corners from your previous practice, and you can then begin to fine tune your technique and settings with the LMP.

Also you might want to get familiar with the car and practice throttle control on a flat track and short track (Tsukuba comes to mind at first) If the track is easy and you remember it well just after couple of laps, you can fully start to test the limits of your car and yourself. After you feel comfortable with it, then start to conquer the ring.

 

[Dave A]

LMP cars in real life don't have nearly the full 900 degrees lock, the same can be said of most race cars that you'll use in GT games. The game doesn't simulate the real cars lock to lock on a model to model basis. It's not practical for a race car to have that much lock on the wheel as it doesn't allow for fast enough sudden changes in direction. Some people may actually prefer usinfg the 900 degree mode but it's not as realistic, the most realistic setting is the 200 degree mode in this instance.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

LMP cars in real life don't have nearly the full 900 degrees lock, the same can be said of most race cars that you'll use in GT games. The game doesn't simulate the real cars lock to lock on a model to model basis. It's not practical for a race car to have that much lock on the wheel as it doesn't allow for fast enough sudden changes in direction. Some people may actually prefer usinfg the 900 degree mode but it's not as realistic, the most realistic setting is the 200 degree mode in this instance.

Perhaps, but that makes the DFP too shaky for my liking. And the cars are way harder to control too! Driving down the Mulsanne straight in full throttle with a Group C car gets extremely shaky, and you may even experince going off into the barriers for no apparent reason, just like the AI does!

 

[shabba]

Also you might want to get familiar with the car and practice throttle control on a flat track and short track (Tsukuba comes to mind at first) If the track is easy and you remember it well just after couple of laps, you can fully start to test the limits of your car and yourself. After you feel comfortable with it, then start to conquer the ring.

Yep, that's a very good suggestion as well. Eliminate as many of the 'human error' factors as possible... then you can blame the machine.

 

[Grayman222]

Before I got distracted with god of war last week I did some practice on autum ring mini and wasn't very consistant so that needs a lot of work.

I did a lap in a mercedes clk touring car(r3, tranny tricked to do 175-180 on the straight quickly) on the ring in 6'59 with a car i hardly drive so I know the track decently.

 

[S!Lpheed]

One word. BRAKING, brake mega early and then take some laps on the nurb and then find times to brake later.