Help with tuning.

  • Thread starter Tank-Ceo
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Tank-Ceo

Tank-Ceo

142
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Tank-Z32TT
I want to start tuning cars myself instead of taking some one elses work, but I have found it to be a pretty tedious task because I don't know any rule of thumbs. I took a good amount of notes and wrote it on paper, so I understand the basics...

I know essentially what each setting does aand what creates over steer and under steer.

But what I am having a hard time with is ride height spring rate, and toe, and some what camber.

I generally drive FR vehicles.

When setting ride height, I don't know any rule of thumbs especially when it comes to adjusting the springs. I mean, its there a certain ratio I can go by when setting ride height? I would I know how low to go? I do I know how much spring rate to increase when lowering the ride height?

As far as toe goes, my main problem with FR cars is understeer, and I want to increase the oversteer. If I were to set toe, would it be wise to set the front toe inward, and the rear toe outward?

Also, camber for the rear, is it basically important especially for FR cars to have a low camber, if not a 0.0 camber for traction?

Essentially what I am looking for are rule of thumbs for setting the suspension. I mean, how high should I set the dampers or anti roll bars.

Should I just follow the default settings of a car and just adjust them slightly?

Is there a website that you know of that is the best tuning website. I have found some but they are mediocre at best.

Also, while setting toe, is there a value that is to high or to low? What is the threshold? Same with CAmber? What value is considered to be redundant?

I also read that if you beat the game, they auto tune cars for you. Is this true?
 
Last edited:
killerjimbag
Well you seem to be at the right place to start your tuning career.Try using the search function in the upper right corner.
Go here for a quick tuning guide https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135268

Then again use the search function to find what you want.
Click to expand...

I use the search button quiet frequently. That quick tuning guide is for GT4 which I have read already... Isn't there a Gt5 tuning guide that is up to date, and a good one?
 
Ride Height does not neccesarily mean anything for springs. But a rule of thumb is that the lower the ride height, the harder (higher number) your springs should be. You rarely set them below 10.0 unless it feels best.

If you want oversteer, set the Toe to a negative number, usually between -0.20 and 0.00.

I usually set Camber to around 2.0 no matter what drivetrain, again, it depends on how the car drives. But 2.0 is a good starting point for any car.

You should usually have compression a bit lower than extension, but tehre is no rule of thumb as to how much or what number it should be.

+/- 0.50 is probably as extreme as should go, and that's very extreme. As for camber, 4.0 is everyday tune max., but you can go all the way up to 9.0 as extreme, havent tried 10.0.

That is false.

Hope I helped.
 
Thanks for the info. However, I have to disagree with your comment about springs and ride height..

The lower you go with ride height, the higher the spring rate has to be to compensate for the lower height. My question is, what height/spring rate ratio should you have? Whats the rule?

Ex: If I have -26 / -24 ride height, should the spring rate be half of that but in positive value? Like for my G37 HPE, I have -26/-24 and 10.9/9.3 ride height. Thats about 70%/60% spring rate, give or take. I am looking for a rule of thumb. Like, should a spring rate be an x percentage amount of the ride height such as 60%, 50%, 70%? You get the idea?

But what about setting the Dampers? I know that the rule of thumb is that the dampers extension should be no less than 2 value points of the spring rate, and the compression should be always be within 1 value point of the extension. Should the anti-roll bars be the same as the compression?

Now, IF I wanted the car to oversteer more. Would I set the front to to for example, +20 and the rear toe to -30? Would that be a setting that would influence over steer?

Im really looking for rule of thumbs and tips you know.
 
If you want to get better, you have to learn to also think outside those figures. The ones you listed in in no way alpha and omega of tuning. Example: Supercars can often have Spring Rates around 13/14, but Dampers as low as 5/6. So within 2 points is far off. And Compression can also be something like 3 even if the extension is 7. I often to that to fix understeer.

As for AR Bars, I usually set it to about the average of the 2 compression figures, and use it as a baseline, and tune from there.

And toe... Something like -0.05/-0.10 would fix understeer. 0.20/-0.30 would counteract eachother =/

But TBH, it sounds like you've read too much on the theory. Get out there and tune some cars yourself, it'll be much easier to understand then.
 
Would you guys be willing to list some more guides for me. Top guides for GT5? Is it true though if you beat the game in A-Spec, that they automatically tune cars for you?
 
Tank-Ceo
Would you guys be willing to list some more guides for me. Top guides for GT5? Is it true though if you beat the game in A-Spec, that they automatically tune cars for you?
Click to expand...

I said no, it's not true. Why would they? And there aren't really any guides as such, but the ones I have bookmarked are...

http://gameguideworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/gran-turismo-5-car-tuning-guide.txt
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=176603#post4996982
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149604
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127310
 
Thanks for those links. Ill be sure to read them.

Also, is there a dedicated website that lists tunes for cars?

AS a matter of fact, is there a tune that a employee of GT5 created for a street car? I want to see his perfect tune you know?

Actually, is there any way to view the tunes for race cars that are preset?
 
Also, when tuning a car, what should I tackle first?

Camber, toe, height, spring, damper, roll bar, aerodynamics? Which should I adjust each first if i were to test on the track? In what order?
 
Tank-Ceo
Also, when tuning a car, what should I tackle first?

Camber, toe, height, spring, damper, roll bar, aerodynamics? Which should I adjust each first if i were to test on the track? In what order?
Click to expand...

I usually lower the height, adjust the springs and dampers to fix initial impression of flaws at first, then fine tune from there.
 
What is a good course to perform tuning on excluding transmission tuning? Something fairly short that you can tune quickly, and a course that wouldn't be prone to human error?

Generally when you tune against a default setting, how much faster can you generally be time wise? Like a second faster or more? Just trying to get this down.
 
Grand Valley East Reverse is good for tuning, especially LSD. It's listed in one of teh links I gave you I believe.
 
Ride Height does have an effect on spring rate, but it also controls weight transfer. Some variables go into multiple calculations so you have to look at the big picture when tuning.

As for camber, unless there is a default setup, I generally leave it at 0/0 until I have tweaked the suspension to taste. Then I use it as a trim adjustment for understeer and oversteer. Most people do the same with toe or to add stability, though, if you have balanced the suspension, camber, dampers, stabilizers, and aerodynamics all the toe ever does is slow the car down. I generally end up spec'ing the car without toe if possible.

Rule of thumb on dampers and stabilizers. Notice the trend on stock, sport kit, height adjustable, and fully customized suspensions? The spring rates always retain a proportion of FR:RR to within a small margin due to only one decimal of accuracy. Example, if you divided the front by rear and get 1.3214 then the ratio is probably 4:3 and any combination of front/rear closer to 1.333 will be balanced, adjust the stiffness to your preferred level. Did you notice stock and sport kit default to dampers 1 and stabilizers 1? Once you go up to height adjustable, dampers are adjustable to 3 (1:1 extension:compression) but stabilizers are still locked to 1. Wonder why this is? Range of dampers is 10, range of stabilizers of 7; look at the trend on default fully customized suspension setups for most cars. Extension+Compression/2 - 2 = Stabilizers. There is a more precise calculation for that but it is a general rule of thumb, chassis rigidity does factor into these calculations as well so spec'ing a tune from the used car lot for others to use, you should perform a chassis maintenance on the car to be tuned, and recommend that service as a requisite for your tune to ensure consistent results. Adding chassis reinforcement further complicates (or normalizes) this equation.
 
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budious
Since I can't reply there... that looked much more readable to me being left justified before than being thrust into the center.

Maybe you should return to left justified, then place a bold manufacturer title at intervals and break the tunes up under those.
Click to expand...

I was just playing around with some things while I was alphabetizing it.
Although, the entire post is dedicated to the Cntrl+F usage, readability wasn't a concern of mine.

I'm working hard to find all the independent tunes I can, then I'll get back to presentation. Although the Mods don't feel it's worthy of a sticky, so it might be a total waste of time.
 
Though, if you set it up to be scrolling friendly and not for ctrl+f it is a good way for tuners to identify which cars have tunes, and how many, and identify stuff that hasn't been tuned yet. Also, ctrl+f may be more difficult for viewing from mobiles or tablets, setting it for easy scrolling makes sense as well.

Frankly, it is infinitely more useful than the outdated GT Tuning Guides sticky and Garage Database sticky if you can keep it up to date. Moderators, sticky it!
 
When tuning a car, which suspension default is considered to be worst to best?

I am assuming that the order for default setting from worst to best would be:

Stock
Sport
Height
Custom

With that in mind, should I follow the trend it supplies and then adjust from there? Or, is the height and custom suspension have the same defaults for every car?
 
Wow, ok, so you're over-thinking it a bit for just getting started.

Every person who tunes has a different logic that they follow or different reasons for adjusting settings the way they do. Most of it has to do with personal feel for the car based on their driving style. There's no such thing as an end-all, be-all best tune for a specific car, so you have to keep that in mind. Just because it works great for 1 or 1000 other people means absolutely nothing if it doesn't work for you. I've tried several tunes from various tuners on here that I'm sure were fantastic tunes, I just wasn't the type of driver that worked with the tune.

As for the action of tuning, the only thing I can really suggest, just to learn, is to try a car like this.

Get a mild car, such as a Silvia or RX-8, around 200-250hp. Put sport tires on it, even sport mediums or softs are fine. Then add the fully customizable parts (suspension, LSD, etc.).

Now, to learn how to tune it, learn what each function does by exploring the extremes.
Run a few laps around a course lime Tsukuba with the default settings and see how the car drives. See if it understeers on corner entry, on exit, under braking, on power.
Set the ride height all the way down and do a few more laps. See how it changed. Now set the height all the way up and do the same thing. Afterwards set it back to the default height.

Repeat that step with all the settings, bound, rebound, stabilizer bars, camber, toe, spring rates. By the end of that day, you should know what every setting does, and how to use it to improve the car.

As for rules of thumb, the only thongs I can think of are:
Set extension stronger than compression.
Use the springs first to adjust over/understeer, and fine tune different tracks with the stabilizers.
Find the softest spring rates that you can use and still be able to keep your lap times close. This will help consistency and stop you from losing control if you hit the rumble strips.
Toe should be a last resort. I never go more than 0.1 positive toe in rear and rarely ever do anything but 0.0 front, but it's a personal preference.
 
Tank-Ceo
When tuning a car, which suspension default is considered to be worst to best?

I am assuming that the order for default setting from worst to best would be:

Stock
Sport
Height
Custom

With that in mind, should I follow the trend it supplies and then adjust from there? Or, is the height and custom suspension have the same defaults for every car?
Click to expand...

Depends on the car, but most, especially premiums are fairly well tuned at stock weight on stock suspension. They may exhibit some rolling behavior but you can purchase an upgrade kit, port the spring rates over and simply bump up the damper settings. A car like Ferrari has fairly good stock suspension but again, those stock defaults are tuned for stock weight in mind. Dampers and stabilizers are used according to the types of tracks you want to tune for, there is no one fits all solution.
 
Whats the formula for determining the appropriate ride height and spring rate ratio? Obviously if you have a - ride height, you have to increase the spring rate value... Now is increase spring rate mean stiffing the spring rate or loosening?
 
No offense, but it appears as if you don't even understand the basic principles of physics in relation to automotive technology. Asking to be taught how to effectively and successfully tune from that much of a knowledge deficit, is too much to ask.

Your best bet, is 1 of the 2 'spreadsheet' tuning devices on the forum.
It literally sets the car up for you and even if that's not good enough for your racing needs, you can compare before and after on a multitude of adjustments, both in visual learning form and physical experience.

Watch the spread sheet change X, Y & Z, then drive the car and you should start to learn 'why those 3 were adjusted in relation to each other' as well as their combined 'cause and effect'.
 
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I'm a bit late to the party, but hope this helps. :dopey:
Tank-Ceo
When setting ride height, I don't know any rule of thumbs especially when it comes to adjusting the springs. I mean, its there a certain ratio I can go by when setting ride height? I would I know how low to go? I do I know how much spring rate to increase when lowering the ride height?
Click to expand...
Increase spring rates until you are happy with how the car feels, make sure you keep the same ratio between front and rear though.

Once the spring rate is set, then lower the car (10mm front and rear each time) until you notice strange effects of the car bottoming out. 99% of the time you'll be able to fully lower it without any bottoming out.
(This advice goes against some real-life tuning theory, but IMHO it works for GT5's physics. **puts on flame suit...**)

Tank-Ceo
As far as toe goes, my main problem with FR cars is understeer, and I want to increase the oversteer. If I were to set toe, would it be wise to set the front toe inward, and the rear toe outward?
Click to expand...
To reduce understeer, you'd be best tuning the rear toe, not front toe. Negative rear toe is what you want, as much as -0.30 (I believe the default is positive only because manufacturers use positive rear toe to make the handling "safe" and Polyphony chose to replicate this. Racing cars don't need to be "safe", "un-safe" is faster!)

Try out these settings for starters:
springs: default
ride height: default
dampers: default
stabilisers: 4 / 4
toe: 0.0 / 0.0
camber: 2.0 / 1.5
LSD Accel: 20
LSD Initial: 5
LSD Decel: 5
They're not "perfect" settings by any means, but they will reduce the understeer and free up your chassis so that you can better notice the effect of changing settings. So I reckon they're a good starting point.

Tank-Ceo
Generally when you tune against a default setting, how much faster can you generally be time wise? Like a second faster or more? Just trying to get this down.
Click to expand...
2 seconds is doing well. Sometimes more if the default tune sucks.

Tank-Ceo
When tuning a car, which suspension default is considered to be worst to best?

...

With that in mind, should I follow the trend it supplies and then adjust from there? Or, is the height and custom suspension have the same defaults for every car?
Click to expand...
As bodius said, stock settings are often good for stock parts. But I'm guessing you'll be throwing on better tyres as part of your tune, so use the Custom as a starting point.



If I may blow my own trumpet, check out this method. Ok it could do with some tweaking for GT5 (ignore steps 2 & 3, also use rear toe/stabilisers after step 9 to tweak mid-corner over/understeer), but it should at least get you thinking and developing your own method.

Simon
 
Last edited:
nomis3613
As bodius said, stock settings are often good for stock parts. But I'm guessing you'll be throwing on better tyres as part of your tune, so use the Custom as a starting point.
Click to expand...

That wasn't what I was trying to say at all... and why do you always spell my name as bodius in just above every post you make mention of me? I could understand a one or two time spelling mistake, but how many times you got to see it to remember it?

You want a tuning assignment to help you learn a bit about suspension? Let's take a car that drives considerably well on its stock suspension, say go purchase the Ferrari 458 Italia, then purchase some Sport Soft tires and the Fully Customizable Suspension and nothing else for the time being.

First, reequip the stock suspension and drive a few laps on a track you are interested in tuning for. Note any qualities you like or dislike about the car. Next, reequip the full custom suspension and drive a few laps and note any qualities you like or dislike. Now, copy over the spring rates from the stock suspension to the full custom suspension and set all the dampers and stabilizers to 1s, leave the default camber if any but zero out the rear toe. Drive a few more laps and note the handling, it should be identical to the stock suspension (or actually leave the stock toe to really re-achieve the stock feel), but now you have a baseline to start tuning your custom suspension.

The idea here is that for the stock weight at the stock ride height of the car, the stock spring rates are fairly decent (6.2 FR / 7.0 RR - if I recall correctly). Your tuning assignment is to not adjust ride height or spring rates, but only to make adjustments to dampers and stabilizers and note the effects on handling and to tune the car to the track using only those three adjustments (extension, compression, anti-roll bars). This should get you on your way to tuning like a pro.
 
It makes me sad when people ask for tuning advice, are direceted to Scaff's tuning guides, then say something like "but that's for GT4 maaannn!!".

Scaff's guides are great for learning the basic concepts involved in tuning. They are a great place to start learning the fundamentals. The suspension tuning concepts are the same whether you're playing GT4 or GT5.

Go read Scaff's guides, tune a few cars as you read them, then come back and read what Motor City Hami has to say about LSD tuning.
 
budious
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all... and why do you always spell my name as bodius in just above every post you make mention of me? I could understand a one or two time spelling mistake, but how many times you got to see it to remember it?

You want a tuning assignment to help you learn a bit about suspension? Let's take a car that drives considerably well on its stock suspension, say go purchase the Ferrari 458 Italia, then purchase some Sport Soft tires and the Fully Customizable Suspension and nothing else for the time being.

First, reequip the stock suspension and drive a few laps on a track you are interested in tuning for. Note any qualities you like or dislike about the car. Next, reequip the full custom suspension and drive a few laps and note any qualities you like or dislike. Now, copy over the spring rates from the stock suspension to the full custom suspension and set all the dampers and stabilizers to 1s, leave the default camber if any but zero out the rear toe. Drive a few more laps and note the handling, it should be identical to the stock suspension (or actually leave the stock toe to really re-achieve the stock feel), but now you have a baseline to start tuning your custom suspension.

The idea here is that for the stock weight at the stock ride height of the car, the stock spring rates are fairly decent (6.2 FR / 7.0 RR - if I recall correctly). Your tuning assignment is to not adjust ride height or spring rates, but only to make adjustments to dampers and stabilizers and note the effects on handling and to tune the car to the track using only those three adjustments (extension, compression, anti-roll bars). This should get you on your way to tuning like a pro.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a good way to tune while keeping the car as true to it's characteristics as possible. I also strive to keep the cars feeling truer then a general generic feel.

Good show!
 
grymey
It makes me sad when people ask for tuning advice, are direceted to Scaff's tuning guides, then say something like "but that's for GT4 maaannn!!".

Scaff's guides are great for learning the basic concepts involved in tuning. They are a great place to start learning the fundamentals. The suspension tuning concepts are the same whether you're playing GT4 or GT5.

Go read Scaff's guides, tune a few cars as you read them, then come back and read what Motor City Hami has to say about LSD tuning.
Click to expand...

Those guides a good pieces of information, I used them for reference when I started out. However, that doesn't mean they couldn't be vastly improved upon. I find them to be highly one dimensional in their view of tuning and biased towards the author's preferences, not that he did a bad job, it's just one style to setting up a car. The methodology is very symptom and remedy in nature rather than intuitive and restricted. I think you can merge an exercise like mine and use those guides as a reference to help teach yourself the relationship between dampers and stabilizers and how those features alone can be used to deliver a high degree of stabilization and desired handling for the particular course being tuned for.
 

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