HFS's car thread | Nearly-5000-miles update

[homeforsummer]

I've never driven one more than 500 yards but are S2000s like a faster MX5? The engine seems like one of the few modern four pots I'd like as much an inline/flat six and I've wanted one at times but insurance has always been loads on them for me when I've looked.

Oddly disinterested in them. Never been keen on the styling, and another part of me is put off because despite the internet fawning all over them, none of the reviews from journalists I've always respected were ever that positive with regards to their handling. Notably those from the magazine I work for.

Went back through the archives to read the previous MR2 reviews though and they bloody loved it. And conversely, always liked the styling of that one. Even the slightly odd back end, thanks to third-person view in Gran Turismo 2!

 

[Davis]

Great to drive in the right situation, but the rest of the time they feel like dull regular hatchbacks and I much prefer something that feels special regardless of how I'm driving it. Classics do, and two-seat open-topped cars do too..

This hits home so hard. I love my hot hatch but walking out to it and starting it up, it just doesn't make me feel anything. You hit it on the head: wanting something that always feels special. You're not content with what you have 90% of the time, then you have a nice long drive on the right roads... and you start to wonder why you ever thought about selling it. You consider modifying it, but when you look at the associated costs, it's easier just to buy something that's quick from factory.

It's part of the reason I went down the classic(ish) car route but after the constant hassle of reliability, there's no fun left in it anymore.

I drove an AP1 S2000 for a few miles a couple years back and also thought they were overhyped. Maybe it had something to do with the altitude, but the car was gutless. The problem isn't that you have to rev it out, it's that there's no significant power to be found up there. The handling was fine, it's not extraordinary. I suspect it has the same flaws as a hot hatch, it's not special enough.

MR2s are just exotic enough to continue to be special, in my opinion. I always find myself wanting a turbo SW20.

 

[niky]

I've heard from friends who've driven them hard is that the issue with the S2K is that they are a bit skittish and unpredictable.

As for power, I once paced one up to 220-230-ish km/h... they do have a lot of power, but you really have to wring the balls off of them to get anything going.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's part of the reason I went down the classic(ish) car route but after the constant hassle of reliability, there's no fun left in it anymore.

Reliability will always be a factor with a classic. The Mazda is new enough (well, Japanese enough) that it's not really a problem. A classic Mini would be different, but in that particular case it very much wouldn't be an everyday car, just something for occasional use. Well, any of my choices would really, but if I went down the Mini route I'd play to its strengths and only really use it for short or fun journeys. An MR2 or Prelude or similar would get more regular use.

With S2Ks, the power thing wouldn't be an issue for me, I don't think. I quite enjoyed driving the EP3 and FN2 Civic Type Rs I had for a week last year and ultimately such a thing would be quicker than the Mazda. But I've just never had any sort of desire for an S2000. If I wanted that element of sophistication from a roadster then my money would go towards a Boxster. Otherwise, light weight and compact size are the goals.

 

[Clark]

http://m.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C723882

 

[axletramp]

MR2, eh. What are you planning on spending? If it was me I'd go as early as possible and as stock as possible over the newer model. Something like this. Will also appreciate faster too.

Definitely a daily driver classic.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Wearing Ricken All-star tyres? Nope, nope, nope.

 

[homeforsummer]

http://m.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C723882

Can see the appeal, but my desire for British cars is very limited indeed. Much as it pains me to say it, most British stuff has been done by other countries to a much higher standard. Usually Japan, though the TR6 always strikes me as a classic version of the Z4 Coupe.

MR2, eh. What are you planning on spending? If it was me I'd go as early as possible and as stock as possible over the newer model. Something like this. Will also appreciate faster too.

Definitely a daily driver classic.

Considered them in the past, but the first-gen MR2 is another car that, for me, suffers by existing in the same universe as the MX-5. Toyota seems to have a knack of building better engines, but the Mazda for me is the looker of the bunch. Truth be told I prefer the Mazda to the third-gen MR2 too, but there's just something very compelling about the Toyota even before the fact it often beat the MX-5 (and often got within a whisker of the much more expensive Elise) in contemporary road tests.

Having seen the new MX-5 RF today though, I'm almost tempted to wait and see how much those are on finance. That, or I'll keep praying Toyota produces the S-FR.

 

[Clark]

I know you said you didn't like hot hatches but what about stuff like Alfasuds or whatever that one Alfa you wanted me to go and look at once? (It was a little black watch but I don't think it was a Sud)

 

[Katiegan]

I know where you can find a very clean example of an SW20.

Just a shame it's an automatic, otherwise I'd have snapped it up first.

 

[homeforsummer]

I know you said you didn't like hot hatches but what about stuff like Alfasuds or whatever that one Alfa you wanted me to go and look at once? (It was a little black watch but I don't think it was a Sud)

I think that was an Alfasud Sprint, if I remember correctly. But I've basically ruled out Suds now as I don't really think they're worth the money they're now attaining. They're being carried on the Alfa wave by those who can no longer afford 105-series cars so buy the 80s stuff instead.

Which incidentally is exactly why I don't see the classic market taking a proper crash any time soon, because there are prospective buyers at every price point and that means perpetual demand even if things take even a small dip. It's also why I'm deliberately looking at cars I'd simply quite like to drive, rather than things that may make me a bob or two.

 

[homeforsummer]

Very light, much LED, wow​

A while ago I replaced the worn-out incandescent instrument cluster bulbs for LEDs. The trouble was, like the sidelights, the LEDs were a cheap eBay purchase and soon started acting up, failing to illuminate (usually when the weather was cold - after a while they'd come back on). Anyway, after being impressed at the quality of the Osram LEDs I used for the sidelights I bought some more (it's the same bulb type) for the interior.

Before (incandescent top, LED bottom):

After:

​

Hard to tell the difference in photos, but the extra glow is noticeable as soon as you turn the lights on. We'll see how distracting it is at night Should be fine though - really, it should take the lights up to the level of something like a new car, where before it was a dim and not particularly reliable glow.

Now I just need to see if Osram also does some 286-type LED bulbs for the centre console, as the cheap ones blew the fuse last time and one of the old incandescent bulbs is out.

Incidentally, my short attention span means I've changed my mind on the car thing again. Currently unfussed by MR2s and Minis. Would still quite like a Prelude, which suggests it's not just a fad in my head (I've wanted one for ages realistically, and that's not going to go away) but the fifth-gen Celica is also a possibility. They're very cheap at the moment, you don't see many, and it's the sort of car I'd like a clean example of before they become hard to find. 90s stuff is ripe for sympathetic restoration at the moment.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

90s stuff is ripe for sympathetic restoration at the moment.

*Cough* Fiat Coupe *cough*​

 

[homeforsummer]

*Cough* Fiat Coupe *cough*​

Those are a consideration. Would err towards the naturally-aspirated ones (five-cylinder, preferably) as I suspect they'd require less attention in the long run, and people are likely to charge less for them too because most people aren't weird like me and want the faster versions of things.

An Alfa GTV also appeals. Possibly even more attractive than the Fiat, though I keep changing my mind. Early car on the original multi-hole alloys would be the one to go for I think. Any colour, though the dark green (which I think is known as Tropical Green) really suits it.

The Prelude/Celica line of thinking is partly because I just like Japanese cars, partly because I think fewer people will realistically give them the attention they deserve, and partly because I both like the engineering and suspect that engineering will allow me to be a bit more laissez faire when driving or looking after them. I keep my Mazda in good nick, for instance, but even if I didn't, or something slipped my attention, it'd just keep going without issue. While any Fiat or Alfa that's made it this long is probably fine, I do suspect they'd need more regular TLC.

 

[homeforsummer]

Mildly exhausting​

Finally had a new exhaust fitted. Pics first, words after.

It's a Klarius system, everything apart from a manifold. Same system as used in the Ma5da Racing Championship. As such it meets the series' noise regs, which are relatively strict. After fitting we measured it on the company's track (a necessary part of all their exhausts meeting EC noise and emissions regs, unlike most aftermarket ones in the UK) and it registered 88 db at 3/4 of the revs required for maximum power, around 4750rpm in this case.

Which actually makes it little different from normal at a cruise, or at least wind and road noise are still loud enough to drown out the exhaust, and unless you have the roof down you seem to hear more induction noise in an MX-5 anyway.

They don't make any power claims for it, but whether it's placebo effect or whatever, it does seem a little freer-revving than before, and it uses a high-flow cat so it's probably a little better. Either way, next job is to find myself a nice manifold and on @Famine's recommendation, a Jackson Racing cold air intake.

 

[homeforsummer]

Track day #2​

Attended the first of our summer trackdays today. Good chance to try out the car as last year, I'd yet to service it, yet to fit the new brakes, and I didn't have the exhaust as detailed above.

In summary: Much better. Brakes are an order of magnitude better than before. Didn't really experience any fade this time even after lap after lap (I think I put about 60 miles on the car today on track in total) and they bite harder. Could still be better - need a master cylinder brace and possibly some braded lines next. May also upgrade to a performance fluid.

Engine felt good too. Definitely freer-revving than it used to be and by the end of the long straight I was doing maybe 5-10mph more than last time, depending on how late I braked for the corner at the end.

Still lists like a supertanker in corners but it's as friendly and adjustable as ever. A few of my colleagues were out on the track in cars of similar performance (mk2 Golf GTI, 205 GTI) and said it looked hilarious - best technique to get it set up at the moment seems to be giving it a quick quarter turn of lock to get the back end interested and then get on the throttle as early as possible since it's got no power to either push into understeer or slide from the back. The result for those following is witnessing the car suddenly leaning onto its doorhandles and then shimmying all the way through the corner.

Do need new tyres though...

 

[Bram Turismo]

I don't even dare to push my GT86 if I were to go on a trackday. As much as I'd love to visit Spa, and give it a good go, it's my daily driver and insurance is already too kind on me. Ultimately I'd probably get overconfident, and bin it since I've never had a car before that likes to be tossed around a bit.

Nice to hear the MX-5 gets enough love, though. It looks great!

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't even dare to push my GT86 if I were to go on a trackday. As much as I'd love to visit Spa, and give it a good go, it's my daily driver and insurance is already too kind on me. Ultimately I'd probably get overconfident, and bin it since I've never had a car before that likes to be tossed around a bit.

I dunno what the situation is in Belgium, but in the UK you can get trackday insurance to cover you for such things. I don't have any, for the record - the Mazda is low enough value that I'd prefer to take my chances - but it'd be worth looking into if you ever decided to take the car on track.

Overconfidence is definitely a thing, though it depends on your personality. I take a few liberties with my car as the handling is quite benign so I'd have to do something really stupid to spin, but people do make mistakes on trackdays. My colleague in the 205 had a big moment in front of me, locking up into the tightest corner of the track and doing a smoky pirouette. I missed my braking point on one particular corner as I was concentrating on something else, but it's not a race situation so I always leave something in reserve with the braking on trackdays anyway, just in case I leave it a little late one lap!

Nice to hear the MX-5 gets enough love, though. It looks great!

Thanks! It's good to be back behind the wheel of it. I've only really driven it a couple of times in the past month or so, but I checked the oil and tyre pressures today before taking it on track and generally it just behaves itself.

I was lapping until the temperature would start creeping up, but half a lap of steadier driving and it drops right back to normal. The circuit we used today is about 2.8 miles, so I did probably 21-22 laps over three sessions, and one of those sessions probably made up 11 or 12 of those laps. The car just feels like it'll keep going for hours.

 

[jjaisli]

Do need new tyres though...

That could be from running too high pressures. How many heat cycles do they have?

 

[homeforsummer]

That could be from running too high pressures. How many heat cycles do they have?

Not many. Only used the car on track twice and really, they're not track-biased tyres. Pressure could be the issue though - they're at the standard 28psi cold at the moment and I didn't have the means to check them at the track so they almost certainly went up.

 

[jjaisli]

It's a very general premise which doesn't necessarily hold true under all conditions or circumstances.

- too much heat and wear on the outside: you're rolling over on the tire and need more camber. ( from the amount of body roll you were talking about, this is what I would've expected and where I would've thought to see the most to wear on your tires, at least on the front )

- too much heat and wear on the inside: you were running too much camber and the contact patch is not even.

- too much heat and wear in the middle usually indicates you're running too much pressure. Given the fact that you have seemingly more wear down the middle and don't have that many heat cycles on the tire would be a good indication. However, you have very deep grooves and channels on those tires and perhaps, as you say, they are just not up to handling the abuse of repeated hard laps when it's dry.

From my experience, depending on the track, configuration, the ratio of left and right corners, how hard I'm pushing, ambient temperature etc. I usually gain anywhere from 6 to 9 psi in the tires during a session. So that would seem about right and you're probably on target. However, I would really recommend you bring a tire pressure gauge with you next time and measure pressures when cold and immediately after coming off the track to compare. If pressures are too high, too low, completely out of whack left or right or front to rear, you know you have to make adjustments as it can completely change the grip and balance of the car. And if you run a cooldown lap back to the pits and it takes you a minute or two to circle around in the paddock until you get to a place where you could measure pressure, calculate about 2 PSI to compensate.

Anyway, just my two cents worth unsolicited advice.

 

[homeforsummer]

Anyway, just my two cents worth unsolicited advice.

Unsolicited but welcome I think points one and three are closest to the mark - the tyres are still fairly high profile and round-shouldered and the suspension is stock, so the car is certainly working the outside of the tyres hard - there was a photographer there, so I expect I'll see just how much the car was rolling onto its sidewalls when the pics come through!

I thought about extra camber myself yesterday. Not sure how much adjustment there is stock, but that maybe something I'll wait on until I've tackled the chassis bracing and coilover steps. The aim with the car is ultimately a balance between fast road and occasional track use, with the caveat that fast road in the UK means something that can deal with really crappy surfaces so I'll be staying away from anything too stiff.

But you're right, tyre pressures are definitely something I'll be checking at the next one. Ultimately I need to look into more track-suitable tyres too. These ones are Dunlops and they're certainly a good all-rounder - decent wet and dry grip, decent ride quality, pretty good economy (averaged just under 28mpg US in my ownership), and I've put maybe 5000 fairly enthusiastic road miles and two trackdays on them so far.

In terms of tread depth there's still quite a bit left, but condition-wise I'm not sure I'll do another trackday on them! I'll have to look at other options - finding performance tyres in this size (185/60 R14) isn't easy.

 

[homeforsummer]

Outta my way!​

Quick pro snap from the most recent track day. Well, the one before last. I was in Le Mans for the most recent one, so it's about a month before the next. Hopefully I'll have my latest purchase installed by then...

Also, note comical levels of body roll. The headlights, incidentally, were because some berk in a Panda 100HP wasn't looking in his mirrors and since there's only a marginal performance difference between the two I had to sit behind him going slowly around most of the circuit.

Edit: I'm also not missing the apex by a huge margin, as it appears - that corner is a late-apex!

 

[daan]

Outta my way!​

​

Thought you'd bought an Audi...

 

[homeforsummer]

Thought you'd bought an Audi...

The only Audi I actually genuinely want to buy is an A2 and those aren't fast enough to tailgate people.

 

[homeforsummer]

The other track car​

For those of you who don't know, this is my other car - a Kia Proceed GT I'm lucky enough to run as a long-termer with work. I've probably been running it for about six months now and as a sensible, fairly fun daily driver it's taken some pressure off the Mazda and allowed me to keep that for shorter, fun trips and track days.

But the Mazda is currently awaiting a few tweaks so I decided I'd take the Kia to the most recent trackday. After all, it makes around 200bhp, it's fairly firmly set-up, and it's on decent tyres (Michelin Pilot Sport 3s, if I recall correctly).

And it was actually bloody brilliant. It's already a good road car, but I was expecting it to feel less than special on track, as it's one of the "colder" hot hatches on the market.

Not a bit of it. Has more front-end grip than I was expecting, and really nice balance - there's a long, full-throttle fourth-gear right-hander on the circuit and you can really feel the rear axle helping out, as if it's just on the cusp of a four-wheel drift. Lovely. Doesn't feel too slow - it's certainly a lot faster than my MX-5 (doing about 15mph more down the long back straight), the steering is really quite nice once there's some load through the front tyres, and the pedals are absolutely perfect for heel/toe.

My only concern is the braking. It's strong, but the Kia is a relatively heavy car (between 1400-1500kg, IIRC) and it works them hard. Admittedly the car got a lot of use - two of my colleagues also drove it, and both reckoned it was more fun than the Golf R we'd also brought along - but the brakes were certainly feeling soft by the end of the day. In contrast, the brakes on our long-term ND MX-5 (at almost half a ton lighter) felt nearly as fresh at the end as they had at the start.

Otherwise, the Kia did brilliantly. May even take it along to another of our track days later in the year.

But it has got me thinking about track car motivations again. Obviously the MX-5 is being steadily made better for track use, but I don't want to go too extreme on it as I want it to work well on the road too. But the appeal of buying something really cheap that's quite light (sub-1000kg ideally), stripping it all out to make it even lighter, and using that for track stuff is really quite appealing. Going fast is fun, but being able to corner and brake hard for lap after lap with no degradation in performance is even better. Hmm...

 

[Katiegan]

I went to a track day yesterday, and now I've caught the bug too. Due to my insurance and black box I won't be taking the Panda on track any time soon, but I can't help but look at other cheap little cars to throw about. I've just found this Cordoba and I have to say it's quite tempting.

 

[homeforsummer]

I went to a track day yesterday, and now I've caught the bug too. Due to my insurance and black box I won't be taking the Panda on track any time soon, but I can't help but look at other cheap little cars to throw about. I've just found this Cordoba and I have to say it's quite tempting.

Do it. So much fun, no worries about knackering a car you need to get to work with, and if you buy the car cheap enough then there's no worries about any mishaps either. Obviously if it's road-registered then you'd still need insurance etc (in fact, I'd expect most track days only accept cars with full MOTs and so-on) but for the sake of a car you can absolutely hammer on without many worries the idea is a tempting one.

 

[TheCracker]

I went to a track day yesterday, and now I've caught the bug too. Due to my insurance and black box I won't be taking the Panda on track any time soon, but I can't help but look at other cheap little cars to throw about. I've just found this Cordoba and I have to say it's quite tempting.

Wrong marque. How about this as a project for a budding mechanic?

 

[Katiegan]

Wrong marque. How about this as a project for a budding mechanic?

That one is very tempting too, and probably more 'me', but I'm more tempted by the Cordoba since the guys at work have spent a lot of time tinkering with Mk3 Golfs which the Cordoba is very similar to. A lot simpler than a Fiesta ST too, I've done a clutch on one before and I'm in no hurry to do another.