Hostility towards religion.

  • Thread starter Pako
  • 24 comments
  • 1,037 views

Pako

Staff Emeritus
16,455
United States
NW Montana
GTP-Pako
GTP Pako
Notes from the ACLJ:

It appears that in Burlington Township in New Jersey, the School District conducted a mock hostage taking. Taking precautions over school violence is certainly important. However, this particular school district decided that in their mock hostage taking, the group that engaged in the activity was right-wing religious fundamentalists. In fact, allegedly the group came in and took students hostage because one of the members of the organization's daughter was suspended for praying before the school day.

No other group in America would tolerate this kind of hostility. The School District's mock hostage taking program targeting Christians as the perpetrators is outrageous.​

Discuss....
 
I suppose people would be happier if the mock hostage scenario was based on muslim terrorists?
 
I suppose people would be happier if the mock hostage scenario was based on muslim terrorists?

How about a mock hostage scenario based on a non-specific group? Had it been any other group, this story would be on the front page of every news paper. As it turns out, it was the School District Superintendent that came up with this brilliant idea to portray the terrorist group as right-wing religious fundamentalists.
 
If this was portraying muslims, that school system would have a new superintendent right now becasue he wasn't "tolerant".

I love being a Christian and have no problem with people questioning my faith. However, when you portray us as looney nuts who will kidnap and take people hostage just "because" like what is currently going on with the muslim terrorists. Well that's just wrong.

As I said in the thread about the Hollocaust. Why do Christians just take this? I tell you what, I'm NOT going to just take this. I'm going to contact the place that is displaying that chocolate Jesus and this school system. I'm sick of people spitting in our face just because OUR book says to turn the other cheek. :grumpy:
 
How about a mock hostage scenario based on a non-specific group? Had it been any other group, this story would be on the front page of every news paper. As it turns out, it was the School District Superintendent that came up with this brilliant idea to portray the terrorist group as right-wing religious fundamentalists.

I didn't realise that you were so into the whole PC movement that you want schools to make sure that they don't put anything offensive in a hostage drill. Do you have a problem if the hostages are taken by men too? Do they need to be androgynous non-race-specific hostage takers? I, speaking as a white male, don't mind if white men are the hostage takers. I also wouldn't be bothered if they were white male engineers from California - because it's a hypothetical scenario.

You say no other groups would take this, and you're right, but does that mean that you shouldn't? Maybe all those other hyper-sensitive groups SHOULD be willing to take this. Maybe if they were willing to take this, you wouldn't get so upset. So your problem isn't necessarily about the school or the hostage drill - maybe your problem is with an overly sensitive PC crazed society (which ironically appears to be capturing you).


...I'm sick of people spitting in our face just because OUR book says to turn the other cheek. :grumpy:

That's not why people spit in your face. People spit in your face because:

a) they hate you because you don't believe in their god
b) they know you'll take it (not because of what your book says, but because of your actions)
c) because people have spat in their faces and they want some payback... and they don't care if the payback isn't against the same people that offended them in the first place.
 
I think the ideal scenario would be "a bunch of people come into the school and take some hostages. What do you do?" You avoid pointing anybody out and it would probably get the point across better.

That's not why people spit in your face. People spit in your face because:

a) they hate you because you don't believe in their god

This is generally true for Christians. We seem to be the ones to base our hate on religion. Not to say other groups don't, and I can't speak for them but my guess is that they have political animosity towards us, but they claim religion is the cause.

b) they know you'll take it (not because of what your book says, but because of your actions)

True. White christians have long been the dominant group here, and have discriminated against others. Now it seems that we are trying to be fair because we are sorry for what we did? Anyway, they know we don't want to "hurt their feelings."

c) because people have spat in their faces and they want some payback... and they don't care if the payback isn't against the same people that offended them in the first place.

I would imagine they would rather payback be against the same person, but yeah, they will get whoever they can. Although, quite a lot of the time, it was us who did the first spitting in the face.
 
It appears that in Burlington Township in New Jersey, the School District conducted a mock hostage taking. Taking precautions over school violence is certainly important. However, this particular school district decided that in their mock hostage taking, the group that engaged in the activity was right-wing religious fundamentalists. In fact, allegedly the group came in and took students hostage because one of the members of the organization's daughter was suspended for praying before the school day.

No other group in America would tolerate this kind of hostility. The School District's mock hostage taking program targeting Christians as the perpetrators is outrageous.​

Discuss....
The key word here in "fundamentalists". It's a very important distinction to make. Most Christians are not fundamentalists. Most fundamentalists are not Christian either. In this example, we are talking about Christian fundamentalists, and as I'm sure you will agree, a fundamentalist interpretation of any religion can differ vastly from what most people of that same religion believes (or advocates as acceptable behaviour). Just look at the people of the Westboro Baptist Church (see my review of a documentary about them here...) for example.

Two key points here are these: 1) If it upsets you that religious fundamentalists get a bad name, then don't tar yourself with the same brush. Fundamentalists, even Christian fundamentalists, are likely to hold many of your beliefs (even as a Christian) with equal distain as they would someone of another persuasion. This is precisely why fundamentalism (not religion itself) is wrong. Moderate (normal), personal religious conviction is far from fundamentalism, and it is a good idea to distance yourself from this epiteth. 2) This is only one of any number of possible scenarios involving fundamentalists. The fact that they are Christian fundamentalists (although you actually said "right-wing religious") is totally irrelevant, in my opinion anyway.

In this regard, I thing a more fitting thread title would be 'Hostility towards fundamentalism'... to me, religion (or the word of the Bible) is (relatively) constant - unchanging. Fundamentalism is a way of describing an attitude (or a set of attitudes) towards a religion - quite a different thing. Most people are not hostile towards religion, but most moderate people (religious or otherwise) are decidely uneasy (if not outright hostile) to fundamentalists of any description.

I love being a Christian and have no problem with people questioning my faith. However, when you portray us as looney nuts who will kidnap and take people hostage just "because" like what is currently going on with the muslim terrorists. Well that's just wrong.

Although I can understand why this sort of thing might upset you, I think it's important that you step back for a second and consider what I've written above - 'right-wing religious fundamentalist' does not equate to 'Christian'. Fundamentalists, almost by definition, are prepared to go to extremes of behaviour and actions that most other people - moderate, tolerant folks - would consider beyond the pale. This said, it really doesn't matter either way if in this scenario we're talking about Christian fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists, or whatever. The distinction is between moderate and extreme types of behaviour. If a merely hypothetical scenario is enough to upset a moderate Christian, maybe we should count our lucky stars that it is extremely unlikely to actually happen.

Swift
Why do Christians just take this? I tell you what, I'm NOT going to just take this

It is simply not the case that Christians are sitting back and taking abuse while every other religion gets treated with kid-gloves. People of all religions need to accept that their chosen religion/belief system is not shared by the rest of the population on Earth, and as such, absolutely nothing is going to be 100% acceptable to everyone all of the time.... for as long as their is religion, there will be things that offend the faithful...

There is a paradox between being tolerant and sticking up for your religion. Where do you draw the line? One simple way of finding out is to ask yourself what you personally achieve by getting angry at something that you needn't get angry about - like the Chocolate Jesus, for example. What did that small group of antagonistic Islamic fundamentalists achieve by stirring up the whole Prophet Mohammed cartoon debacle in Denmark, other than to upset the very people they claim to want to 'protect' from insult? In my book, they achieved absolutely nothing other than to make their brand of religious fundamentalism look petty, intolerant and utterly ridiculous. Ironically, their despicable behaviour (which resulted in the deaths of several innocent people) brought more shame to the good name of moderate Muslims the world over than any drawing of a Prophet ever could. (Bear in mind that the really offensive cartoons never appeared in the Danish press at all, and were in fact 'added' to the portfolio of 'offensive' images by the Islamists who were seeking to stir up a controversy themselves).

Art has for centuries played a significant role in portraying religion to the masses, long before the mass media came on the scene. As such, I always balk when I see a knee-jerk reaction to a piece of religiously relevant art being attacked by religious campaigners. I ask, what is so offensive about a chocolate Jesus? Is it because it represents Jesus? In that case, you need to take down a whole lot of other pieces of art across the world too. Is it because it shows his genitalia? Ok, maybe that is a question of good taste, but it's hardly blasphemy to be anatomically correct. Is it because making a statue out of chocolate is disrespectful? I reckon that is closer to the mark, but again, I don't really see why. It is a work of art - a sculpture, and a rather good one at that... I don't see what getting upset about it is going to achieve.
 
If this was portraying muslims, that school system would have a new superintendent right now becasue he wasn't "tolerant".

I love being a Christian and have no problem with people questioning my faith. However, when you portray us as looney nuts who will kidnap and take people hostage just "because" like what is currently going on with the muslim terrorists. Well that's just wrong.

As I said in the thread about the Hollocaust. Why do Christians just take this? I tell you what, I'm NOT going to just take this. I'm going to contact the place that is displaying that chocolate Jesus and this school system. I'm sick of people spitting in our face just because OUR book says to turn the other cheek. :grumpy:

And that, My Good Man, is EXACTLY why you have a Quality Stamp and I don't - Well put Sir - Thank you !...
 
Not that I want to throw more logs into the fire here, but if the chocolate Jesus has got you sor worked up, what ever happened to Andres Serrano and the Piss Christ?

Surely that is a worse example, and just because that one still lives as an example, the 'artist' making the chocolate Jesus didn't feel he was being blasphemous... or maybe not as blasphemous as...

The point in this case is what's referred to as "artistic freedom"... remember Madonna did it also with her Like a Prayer music video.

Furthermore, the exhibition Ecce Homo also depicted Jesus among or as homosexuals, trans people, leatherpeople and AIDS victims.

In short, Christianity always takes the spit in the face because Christianity has always brushed it off after complaining a bit. Look at what the Muslims did when the cartoons controversy came out... we could learn a bit about them in that case.
 
@Touring Mars,

The school district called this fictional group, "New Crusaders" ... who do not believe in separation of church and state. Although I agree with what you are saying, they were targeting more than just Fundamentalists I'm afraid.
 
I have to agree with Pako here. If the supposed terrorists were heaven forbid Muslim or blacks, the ACLU would be all over this. There'd be such a damn stink you'd hear about it for weeks.

Personally, I think the terrorists should be like the "L33T Crew" guys in Counter-Strike. When the drill is over and everyone dies, the superintendent can get on the school PA and announce:

"Terrorists Win".


M
 
///M-Spec
If the supposed terrorists were heaven forbid Muslim or blacks, the ACLU would be all over this. There'd be such a damn stink you'd hear about it for weeks.
The irony is that there is a stink brewing here that we won't here the end of for weeks anyway, and why? Because people like Bob Pawson of the Scriptures In Schools Project are making an unnecessary claim that the whole point of the exercise was to "denigrate Christians" when it wasn't. However, I agree that the choice of scenario is frankly silly, but I applaud them for atleast attempting to drill a situation that is all too possible.
 
*snip* I agree that the choice of scenario is frankly silly, but I applaud them for atleast attempting to drill a situation that is all too possible.

I totally agree. The drill is, unfortunately, necessary and should be done on a regular basis in high risk environments.
 
@Touring Mars,

The school district called this fictional group, "New Crusaders" ... who do not believe in separation of church and state. Although I agree with what you are saying, they were targeting more than just Fundamentalists I'm afraid.

Sadly I can see some fundies doing something like that, I've never been so bashed by one group in my entire life. I'm not Christian, I'm not even religious, but I'm not an Atheist. We have a Christian group on campus, which is cool and everything but they feel the need to have members join Anthropology classes and make a huge fuss about evolution, to the point where it is disruptive and angers students actually trying to learn.

You can believe in the Bible's version of creation, that's what makes this country so great, you are supposed to have the freedom of religion (I don't think we do but another story, another time). But really don't be shoving your views of your religion on to me, I just don't care and it only makes people dislike you and your faith even more.
 
Sadly I can see some fundies doing something like that, I've never been so bashed by one group in my entire life. I'm not Christian, I'm not even religious, but I'm not an Atheist. We have a Christian group on campus, which is cool and everything but they feel the need to have members join Anthropology classes and make a huge fuss about evolution, to the point where it is disruptive and angers students actually trying to learn.

You can believe in the Bible's version of creation, that's what makes this country so great, you are supposed to have the freedom of religion (I don't think we do but another story, another time). But really don't be shoving your views of your religion on to me, I just don't care and it only makes people dislike you and your faith even more.

The school district was justified in their actions? You're apposed to it? I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say as it relates to this thread.
 
Terrorist drills are something that needs to be done, sadly. In this day and age it's not if it's going to happen but more of a when, and if you are trained for it than all the better.

Terrorist also do not have to be Muslim extremist, I've seen what some hard core fundies can do. Look at the abortion clinics that are bombed, do you think a liberal, baby eating, Atheist would do that? I don't think so and the only people extreme enough to blow up an abortion clinic are uber right wing fundies.

With schools, fundies are constantly bashing schools for teaching evolution and the big bang, sex ed that isn't just abstinence, not allowing school prayer (once again freedom of religion), and so on. I can seriously see a terrorist act being carried out by some disgruntled fundies. To be prepared we have to plan for everything.
 
Terrorist drills are something that needs to be done, sadly. In this day and age it's not if it's going to happen but more of a when, and if you are trained for it than all the better.

Terrorist also do not have to be Muslim extremist, I've seen what some hard core fundies can do. Look at the abortion clinics that are bombed, do you think a liberal, baby eating, Atheist would do that? I don't think so and the only people extreme enough to blow up an abortion clinic are uber right wing fundies.

With schools, fundies are constantly bashing schools for teaching evolution and the big bang, sex ed that isn't just abstinence, not allowing school prayer (once again freedom of religion), and so on. I can seriously see a terrorist act being carried out by some disgruntled fundies. To be prepared we have to plan for everything.

So do you think that right-wing religious fundamentalists, ... who do not believe in separation of church and state requires a different drill than if they were just running a drill for terrorist and a hostage situation?
 
Yes, different groups would and do carry out hostage/terrorist situations differently. Do you think if a group of fundie terrorist took over a school they would do any harm to anyone carrying a Bible, wearing a crucifix, and praying? Probably not. But would they target someone who had a copy of The God Delusion on their desk and had on a t-shirt saying something against God? Probably so. You have to be prepared for everything and you have to expect these sorts of things, if they don't happen (and hopefully nothing like this will happen) you just have the secure feeling that you were prepared.

Look at the military, they plan for things that will more than likely never happen, but since they do have an plan for it, all the better.
 
So if a group takes over a school, are we supposed to stop them and ask them what group they belong to and who's their god and later prepare the contingency attack? As opposed to just performing the drill regardless.
 
Just my take on this...
Using the scenerio they did was a way to avoid trouble.
If they had picked anything else it would have been a great story for the media in all sorts of ways (mostly bad for the school though).

Can they do this? Yes (just be sure to claim the first for yourself when reacting ;) ).
Should Christians accept this sort of incident? That's up to individual Christians on a personal level (imo).

Was there malice in this action? Possibly but I hope not. :indiff:

What kind of action should or should not be taken?
:scared: Hard to say... Apology from the school if any party has claimed offense.

What legal consequences could occur?
Depending on the school's status as a public school, this could lead to legislation to limit "mach event information creation and distribution." (or other similar ways of limiting labels in a mach event)
In the event of most terrorist & hostage events, hostages know very little information of their capturers. Police and response units know more but must either rely on event specific info or a set routine. In either of those cases, using a specific religion or personality may prove to be difficult due to events like those in Burlington (provided legal action does ensue).

Is this event indicative of a greater societal issue?
Possibly, again, I hope not but it might be. Just depends on the local area and the small town politics.

Will this become a trend?
I hope so (assuming there is no malice behind the concept and execution).
I may have objections to Christians being the scapegoat of terrorist attacks but I would rather see students learn to deal with trouble than crumble under pressure when terrorists do attack. 👍
(which, my guess is, in the end will most likely not be a fundamentalist Christian parent... as it seems they preffer to seclude themselves in communes of paligamy and firearms) :ouch: :sly:
 
So if a group takes over a school, are we supposed to stop them and ask them what group they belong to and who's their god and later prepare the contingency attack? As opposed to just performing the drill regardless.

If you can't tell who the terrorist belong to then you are probably blind. If a group of Middle Eastern men invade a school screaming Allah there is a good chance they are Muslim. If a group comes in waving Bibles and saying kill the non-believing Atheist than they are probably Christian. You can figure it out.

Christians are not exempt from committing acts of terrorism. They have their extremist. We can not just profile Muslims. Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, Timothy McVeigh was not Muslim and was certainly not middle eastern as far as I can tell.

Actually here is somthing on McVeigh's religion from TIME magazine.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,109478,00.html

TIME
TIME: Are you religious?

MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

TIME: Do you believe in God?

MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.
 
If you can't tell who the terrorist belong to then you are probably blind. If a group of Middle Eastern men invade a school screaming Allah there is a good chance they are Muslim. If a group comes in waving Bibles and saying kill the non-believing Atheist than they are probably Christian. You can figure it out.

Christians are not exempt from committing acts of terrorism. They have their extremist. We can not just profile Muslims. Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, Timothy McVeigh was not Muslim and was certainly not middle eastern as far as I can tell.

Actually here is somthing on McVeigh's religion from TIME magazine.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,109478,00.html

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christ followers, aka Christians are not murderers. Unfortunately, many people have been killed in the name of Christianity, but they were NOT Christians, and they were not following the teachings of Christ.
 
If you can't tell who the terrorist belong to then you are probably blind. If a group of Middle Eastern men invade a school screaming Allah there is a good chance they are Muslim. If a group comes in waving Bibles and saying kill the non-believing Atheist than they are probably Christian. You can figure it out.

Can you tell an Al-Qaeda member from a Hizbollah from a Kurdish separatist from a Basque ETA?
 
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christ followers, aka Christians are not murderers. Unfortunately, many people have been killed in the name of Christianity, but they were NOT Christians, and they were not following the teachings of Christ.

Allah's followers are not murders either but there are extremist who do. No religion is safe from extremist. I'm sorry but this statement is why I do not care for organized religion and the Christian faith in general, it's that holier than thou attitude. If you claim to be a part of some religion, then you are, there is nothing stopping you from that. There are extremist in every group, Christians are not exclude. The Westbro Baptist Church is just one of those cases.

But if you, or any other Christian for that matter, has this attitude with Christians I really hope you, and others, think Osama bin Ladin isn't a Muslim because he orders planes to be flown into buildings.

Many people have been killed in the name of a lot of religions and I'm pretty sure the Christians have killed a huge number of people. The Crusades were unbelievably bloody and for the most part they were religious.

-Diego-
Can you tell an Al-Qaeda member from a Hizbollah from a Kurdish separatist from a Basque ETA?

No but this is where you must generalize. Many Middle Eastern groups have the same sort of beliefs. Chances are all Middle Eastern terrorist groups are going to dislike the Jews and not really think highly of women. They are extremist, look at how extremist act in their religion and bingo you have have something to go off of. I don't understand why you are arguing this. I'm saying you should be prepared for anything because Middle Eastern men are not the sole cause of terrorism despite what the general world population thinks.
 
Back