How the clutch issue should be solved!

[zedextreme8177]

Right now, H-pattern users are prevented from doing the following:

- Power Shifting (Changing gears without letting go of the throttle)
- Clutchless Shifting (Used prominently in manual race cars [V8 Supercars, NASCAR, etc])
- Shifting with any more than 90% of throttle applied
- Shifting when there is any wheel-spin, very noticeable in RWD cars when going from first to second.
- If we miss pressing the clutch after it the stick clicks into gear, even if it's just a fraction of a second before.

All these will force us into neutral, whereas despite clunky shifts in some cases, it is clearly possible in real life.

In addition to this, some will have noticed that even if you let go of the clutch early in a shift, it will take some time for it to be released, and the power to be transmitted. This is especially prominent on cars which have very slow engine response. While this could be to simulate the synchronizers, there are much better ways of representing it

The simple solution would be to allow DS3 users to shift using a clutch as well (idea blatantly taken from Forza). I thought this would be common-sense for PD, rather than totally removing proper clutch simulation, hence detracting the experience, which shouldn't happen at all in "The Real Driving Simulator"

While it is difficult to completely replicate a proper clutch for DS3 users (still feels like an on/off button with an extremely prominent bite point in the pedal), this should even out the "shifting field" and while providing us wheel users with more immersion, should do the same for DS3 users!

In-game manual cars can have a pre-selected shift time when using semi-automatic shifting on the controller/wheel paddles/sequential shifter, which would be slightly more than a user who can use the (fixed) clutch properly. Conversely, a dual-clutch transmission/semi auto can be shifted faster without using the H-pattern/clutch 💡

What do you guys think?

Btw: I'll be posting a video (when/if it is uploaded) showing two cars which can actually be shifted rather quickly, at almost the same speed as with the paddles/controller.

 

[shirakawaa]

They could for example tie the speed with which one presses shift gear buttons on clutchless wheels or the DS3 to the actual shifting speed, so that those users aren't in disadvantage compared to Clutch-equipped wheel ones.

Adding transmission damage modeling (gears, synchros, clutch, etc) would also avoid the abuse of this feature.

I think PD are just too afraid to scare away mainstream players to implement innovative and potentially "complex" ideas, I fear.

 

[MSTER232]

- Shifting when there is any wheel-spin, very noticeable in RWD cars when going from first to second.

Hold on, if you can't shift when there is any wheel-spin, then how do people drift with G25's, G27's or even Thrustmasters?!

I have a wheel with sequential gearbox so I can't really help here.

 

[zedextreme8177]

Drifting is possible, but you need to hold the clutch/wait until there is no wheelspin until you change gear. It often happens to me when accelerating in a straight line.

And @Shirakawa Akira, that's a great idea, though I agree that PD might not implement it in case it scares off people who want a simple experience.

 

[MSTER232]

Drifting is possible, but you need to hold the clutch/wait until there is no wheelspin until you change gear. It often happens to me when accelerating in a straight line.

And @Shirakawa Akira, that's a great idea, though I agree that PD might not implement it in case it scares off people who want a simple experience.

I still don't get it. So what you're saying is, when you're driving using a wheel that has a clutch, you cannot change gear until the car stops drifting?

 

[Griffith500]

It's especially odd when you consider that declutching the drivetrain from the engine should cause the wheels to stop "spinning" almost immediately, but that's not the case: it always takes a finite and frustrating amount of time for the drivetrain to equalise to the road speed, despite the forces involved. This points to poor modeling of the drivetrain inertia, or the tyre model, or both.

I'd be impressed if PD decided to model the gearbox and drivetrain "properly", I suspect some of the oddities would disappear.

EDIT: you need only wait for the drivetrain to equalise to the road speed, i.e. for the wheels to stop over-rotating; you can still be "sliding", since the slip-angle-based tyre model allows for that.

 

[Greycap]

- Clutchless Shifting (Used prominently in manual race cars [V8 Supercars, NASCAR, etc])

Already possible at least on a G25 - just never use the clutch during a particular session and it won't be activated.

 

[Griffith500]

Already possible at least on a G25 - just never use the clutch during a particular session and it won't be activated.

Yes, which results in the same behaviour as the ordinary sequential controls (automatic clutch), except with the advantage of being able to directly select gears instead of rattling through them all.

 

[MSTER232]

It's especially odd when you consider that declutching the drivetrain from the engine should cause the wheels to stop "spinning" almost immediately, but that's not the case: it always takes a finite and frustrating amount of time for the drivetrain to equalise to the road speed, despite the forces involved. This points to poor modeling of the drivetrain inertia, or the tyre model, or both.

I'd be impressed if PD decided to model the gearbox and drivetrain "properly", I suspect some of the oddities would disappear.

EDIT: you need only wait for the drivetrain to equalise to the road speed, i.e. for the wheels to stop over-rotating; you can still be "sliding", since the slip-angle-based tyre model allows for that.

Now that makes more sense. Thank you for the reply. Now I know what to do when I get a G27 to replace DFGT.

 

[zedextreme8177]

I still don't get it. So what you're saying is, when you're driving using a wheel that has a clutch, you cannot change gear until the car stops drifting?

To put it as simple as possible, if you hear the tyres squealing loudly (tyres are spinning faster than they should - wheelspin), you cannot change the gear without waiting for the tyres' current (faster) rotational speed to equalize with the rotational speed it should have. It is a bit confusing, but that's the best I can explain it

EDIT: Tree'd by Griffith500

Already possible at least on a G25 - just never use the clutch during a particular session and it won't be activated.

Same with the G27, but it's far from realistic. It still acts like a semi-auto transmission (same as shifting with paddles/sequential) instead of a manual. The car does not shift into neutral while going between the gears

EDIT: And Tree'd by Griffith500 again!

Anyways, here's my video showing how a few cars can be shifted quickly. Note that both these cars have good engine response, which reduces the "delayed clutch engagement" effect to a minimum. Note that it's still a bit slower than using the paddles

 

[MSTER232]

Good video. Gotta love the sound of the Zonda .