How to Make GT7 Better -- Getting BoP Right
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MonoTonouS
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FIA adjusts BOP on the fly, PD adjust BOP on the fly, and people expecting one magic BOP are ignoring the realities of racing.
In my opinion there should be three types of BOP
Power
Technical
Hybrid ( current bop)
Power bop should have a biased toward top speed and acceleration . This should be used on power tracks . The prime example of a power track is route X , Tokyo expressway, highspeed ring etc.
Technical BOP should have a bias on 0-60 speed, and overall car grip/agility. This should apply to technical circuits. A prime example would be Tsukuba , Suzuka
Hybrid should be our current bop, which is effective on tacks that fall between power tracks and technical tracks.
Ideally, EACH track should have it's own unique bop but this would make championships a pain in the ass.
In my opinion there should be three types of BOP
Power
Technical
Hybrid ( current bop)
Power bop should have a biased toward top speed and acceleration . This should be used on power tracks . The prime example of a power track is route X , Tokyo expressway, highspeed ring etc.
Technical BOP should have a bias on 0-60 speed, and overall car grip/agility. This should apply to technical circuits. A prime example would be Tsukuba , Suzuka
Hybrid should be our current bop, which is effective on tacks that fall between power tracks and technical tracks.
Ideally, EACH track should have it's own unique bop but this would make championships a pain in the ass.
Christian_C
Premium
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- GTP_Christian_C
As someone who has been involved with BoP for another sim for about 1.5 years now, I'll just say it's not near as easy as it might appear from the outside. There's a whole lot of background implications that on the surface you might never think about which cause divergence in BoP.
In short, I have some sympathy for PD on this one.
@MonoTonouS BoP by track is a noble one but it's an enormous time investment (think your initial BoP work then multiplied by the number of tracks) and it's also still not perfect. To an extent it's still going to come down to any bias in the testing method, that can be anything from the drivers involved to the setups on the car.
In short, I have some sympathy for PD on this one.
@MonoTonouS BoP by track is a noble one but it's an enormous time investment (think your initial BoP work then multiplied by the number of tracks) and it's also still not perfect. To an extent it's still going to come down to any bias in the testing method, that can be anything from the drivers involved to the setups on the car.
dabz343
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- dabz343
Definitely not a simple equation irl because of the sheer quantitative assessment of each build, but in a sim like GT7 where all cars have been modeled by essentially one OEM, it begs the question -- why is it so difficult to balance the grid?
PD modeled every car, they have the telemetry, the rotational G, the fuel/tire consumption...they gave every car their unique physics character...they even have reinforced learning AI to simulate xxx,xxx,xxx miles. All we are looking for is a BoP system that achieves some level of fairplay.
Then there is the other PP system...
PD modeled every car, they have the telemetry, the rotational G, the fuel/tire consumption...they gave every car their unique physics character...they even have reinforced learning AI to simulate xxx,xxx,xxx miles. All we are looking for is a BoP system that achieves some level of fairplay.
Then there is the other PP system...
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- 166
- Equalityland
One possible solution [this can be done in both SP and MP] is to have several types of BoP. One is weight/power, two is tires, three is downforce and how low the car is. These factors of 'speed-potential' can be combined, and can have from 10% to 40% weighting importance in the BoP equation.
dabz343
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- dabz343
I like the idea of starting to calibrate BoP through simple, yet progressive sequence of comparisons rather than just trying to account for every variable all at once.
Start with power & weight. See how cars stack up in the 1/2 mile. Then add braking. Then add cornering and so on...once you have discrete data on important dimensions that significantly contribute to overall performance, then you can intelligently start formulating a rational heuristic for balancing.
Once you have an initial hypothesis, run deeper testing, add degradation/consumerables and off you go in a rinse & repeat cycle that gets you forever honing for the ideal/acceptable level disparity.
Start with power & weight. See how cars stack up in the 1/2 mile. Then add braking. Then add cornering and so on...once you have discrete data on important dimensions that significantly contribute to overall performance, then you can intelligently start formulating a rational heuristic for balancing.
Once you have an initial hypothesis, run deeper testing, add degradation/consumerables and off you go in a rinse & repeat cycle that gets you forever honing for the ideal/acceptable level disparity.
- 16
- Spain
First I want to see is not locking up car setups. Altering them, to be faster or alter some behaviour, takes considerable time and BoP takes away this sim related feature. Not even brake bias can be adjusted... I want to use the settings I've worked on... Why always lever things up to the lazy people that only want things the easy and quick way? Where's all that mouthfull of car culture they said repeatedly?
BoP should be only for power and weight restrictions.
Suspension, differential, gearbox and brake bias settings should be free in a 2022 allegedly racing sim.
Best Regards
BoP should be only for power and weight restrictions.
Suspension, differential, gearbox and brake bias settings should be free in a 2022 allegedly racing sim.
Best Regards
dabz343
(Banned)
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- dabz343
BoP exists in part because we want this sport to award the best driver. And I think we can all agree on this. It should be the man, not just about the car.
So with this in mind, we are challenged...because of the fantastic variations that talented engineers and designers bring to the track. They look to take advantage of the rules and regulations...it is their dream to outwit the guys in the ivory towers. They excel in discovering the hidden speed.
But this causes havoc for those that are seeking to crown the most talented driver...and one-makes just simply lack appeal...so we BoP...but we need to find a modern methodology.
So with this in mind, we are challenged...because of the fantastic variations that talented engineers and designers bring to the track. They look to take advantage of the rules and regulations...it is their dream to outwit the guys in the ivory towers. They excel in discovering the hidden speed.
But this causes havoc for those that are seeking to crown the most talented driver...and one-makes just simply lack appeal...so we BoP...but we need to find a modern methodology.
- 600
- DeolTheBeast
The issue of a diverse playing field is relevant in pretty much every mainstream online game these days.
By diverse I mean being able to utilise a variety of playstyles (or in GT's case - car choice) to achieve a goal (lets say that's to place as high as possible in Sport mode races).
In CoD Warzone, there is always a race to find the most powerful fastest killing weapon - then when it gets patched, the cycle restarts.
In FIFA Ultimate Team, it's the same thing - you can play with certain players but there is a definite set of players who are just much better to use (and not using them will be at the detriment of your performance).
The Gr3 RCZ and Gr4 Atenza are in this standalone category at this point.
As someone mentioned above, how PD cannot see the blatant advantage of certain cars over another is a little worrying - especially with all the data they have when modelling everything into the game.
I understand the difficulty of trying to balance so many cars but at the same time, in a racing game where being the quickest is the most common goal - they need to offer a variety of methods to be amongst the quickest.
By diverse I mean being able to utilise a variety of playstyles (or in GT's case - car choice) to achieve a goal (lets say that's to place as high as possible in Sport mode races).
In CoD Warzone, there is always a race to find the most powerful fastest killing weapon - then when it gets patched, the cycle restarts.
In FIFA Ultimate Team, it's the same thing - you can play with certain players but there is a definite set of players who are just much better to use (and not using them will be at the detriment of your performance).
The Gr3 RCZ and Gr4 Atenza are in this standalone category at this point.
As someone mentioned above, how PD cannot see the blatant advantage of certain cars over another is a little worrying - especially with all the data they have when modelling everything into the game.
I understand the difficulty of trying to balance so many cars but at the same time, in a racing game where being the quickest is the most common goal - they need to offer a variety of methods to be amongst the quickest.
- 475
- Germany
@Tidgney mentioned a few times in his videos that there are 3 different BoPs already. Didn't check it myself though.
dabz343
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- dabz343
Well said.
MonoTonouS
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Funny how two people who have never met or exchanged ideas could come up with the same concept. I guess it only makes sense that tracks that favor speed, and tracks that favor grip and agility should be classified differently.
I have never read any material on FIA's BOP, just know that in super GT they handicap car's by making them hevier, and it always irked me how the hndicap would preety much cut a car's balls off and place it in a really bad place.
I have never read any material on FIA's BOP, just know that in super GT they handicap car's by making them hevier, and it always irked me how the hndicap would preety much cut a car's balls off and place it in a really bad place.
dabz343
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It's the whatever system that concerns me...
Tidg is indeed a reliable and dedicated source.
Yes agree, this is not how to implement a BoP.
Tidgney
Premium
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- LZR_Tidgney
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Yeah makes sense, I just tested it with the CLK LM, the F1 GTR and the Lexus SC430 GT500 and there was no difference per track, so it seems at least the Gr. 2 don't have different BoPs.There's meant to be 3 different BoPs according to the manual. There doesn't appear to be at the moment though. But the BoPs they mentioned are;
View attachment 1137725
I wasn't an official BoP test driver I just did my own testing and offered the data
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dabz343
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- dabz343
Thx Tidg, Didn't know PD has delineated 3 different applications of BoP based on track types. I welcome this, but based on my experience, mainly from GTS, PD seems to struggles with BoP...and I'm not sure why.
Seriously, after multiple years of BoP patches, did they ever get it right? I remember your PUG train and the ludicrous metas lol.
I wold love for them to first get the high-speed application right. Traction/accel/top speed are likely the most dominant facets and compared to med & slow contexts, easily the simplest...what gives me pause is, in GT7 there are already/still huge disparities in speed. Is it from traction? HP/torque? Weight? Gearing? Aero?...perhaps even a little turbo lag? Yea, all the above
Why is BoP so elusive? If I digitally built every car and know how they all stack up against each other, then balancing should be easy...but is't not...it's almost like PD is intentionally creating questions, rather than giving answers.
Seriously, after multiple years of BoP patches, did they ever get it right? I remember your PUG train and the ludicrous metas lol.
I wold love for them to first get the high-speed application right. Traction/accel/top speed are likely the most dominant facets and compared to med & slow contexts, easily the simplest...what gives me pause is, in GT7 there are already/still huge disparities in speed. Is it from traction? HP/torque? Weight? Gearing? Aero?...perhaps even a little turbo lag? Yea, all the above
Why is BoP so elusive? If I digitally built every car and know how they all stack up against each other, then balancing should be easy...but is't not...it's almost like PD is intentionally creating questions, rather than giving answers.
- 1,306
- Canada
All I'm saying is balancing is an issue in pretty much every competitive online game.Thx Tidg, Didn't know PD has delineated 3 different applications of BoP based on track types. I welcome this, but based on my experience, mainly from GTS, PD seems to struggles with BoP...and I'm not sure why.
Seriously, after multiple years of BoP patches, did they ever get it right? I remember your PUG train and the ludicrous metas lol.
I wold love for them to first get the high-speed application right. Traction/accel/top speed are likely the most dominant facets and compared to med & slow contexts, easily the simplest...what gives me pause is, in GT7 there are already/still huge disparities in speed. Is it from traction? HP/torque? Weight? Gearing? Aero?...perhaps even a little turbo lag? Yea, all the above
Why is BoP so elusive? If I digitally built every car and know how they all stack up against each other, then balancing should be easy...but is't not...it's almost like PD is intentionally creating questions, rather than giving answers.
dabz343
(Banned)
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- United States
- dabz343
Yep agree, hence the opportunity for PD...it;s a differentiation thing...or a USP...a way to stand out, not blend in with all others that are suffering from the same, same , same...samey.
Edit -- like I have said, IRL, BoP is really, really difficult. But for a developer that has modeled every car, it should be much simpler...they have the code/data/telemetry/physics...they have everything.
Edit -- like I have said, IRL, BoP is really, really difficult. But for a developer that has modeled every car, it should be much simpler...they have the code/data/telemetry/physics...they have everything.
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