How were engine sounds recorded?

[S!Lpheed]

I once heard that all of the sounds were recorded from the real cars or close to what they could find. Well I have an Iroc-Z in real life, and it sounds like a V8. I have an Iroc-Z in the game, and it sounds like a muppet burping, WTF?!

I'm sorry gt4 fans, but this game has some really bad engine sounds even if you don't agree with me. I want to finish it because it's a good sim and I want 100%, but those noises make me feel like I'm just playing a game (and this is a SIM)

So where do these sounds really come from?

 

[opendriver]

Not 100% sure on this one:

There was a DVD that came with some of the special edition of GT4 that showed the making of the game. They might have shown how they recorded the engine sounds. Ive never sen it before so anyone feel free to correct me.

 

[ALPHA]

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=327476#post327476

 

[S!Lpheed]

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=327476#post327476

The RGT is one of the best sounding cars in the game. I believe that was recorded, but how the hell does a C5-R sound like a V-12 or something? That's just blasphemy. They couldn't have recorded one because it's the meanest LM car out there, Panoz too. Infact it should have sounded more like the Panoz esp that's in gt4, or even the GT40 race car. I smell foul play, more like I hear it.

 

[Famine]

I believe they were recorded with a single microphone, with the engine moved in steps of 1,000rpm up to redline, then a sound profile was nailed together.

The problem is that, although the cars do sound different enough (with good enough speakers - most people playing it through a TV will complain that "all the cars sound the same), the disc can only hold, and the PS2 is only capable of, so much.

Hopefully, with the extra capacity of BluRay and extra performance of the PS2, we should be approaching more realistic sound in the next GT, if the original samples were good enough.

 

[sucahyo]

I once heard that all of the sounds were recorded from the real cars or close to what they could find. Well I have an Iroc-Z in real life, and it sounds like a V8. I have an Iroc-Z in the game, and it sounds like a muppet burping, WTF?!

Are you using stock exhaust for your GT4 car?

Hopefully, with the extra capacity of BluRay and extra performance of the PS2, we should be approaching more realistic sound in the next GT, if the original samples were good enough.

I don't think capacity is a problem. a 4x75kb file would be enough to produce a very high quality engine sound in many games, if 750 car is 250Mb, PD would only need to delete ending movies to have better car sound.

just for reference, this is the sound of engine in Gt2. It is a joy just to listening V8 engine sound .
http://d.turboupload.com/d/1099127/vipergts.MP3.html
http://d.turboupload.com/d/1099135/cuda3.MP3.html
http://d.turboupload.com/d/1099145/dodge.MP3.html

I wonder if GT4 still use the same sound sample from GT2. In GT2 I can't find car that have exactly the same sound on stock exhaust.

 

[diospen]

Is there a game/sim with really accurate engine sounds?

In GT4 the biggest disappointment for me is the GT40. Pathetic!

 

[JTSnooks]

You're not the first to complain about the sounds. The only people who don't complain are the people who haven't heard a V8 with any type of aftermarket exhaust in real life. Another good example of their HORRIBLE modification of sounds for the sports/semi-racing/racing exhausts is the '69 Camaro Z/28. I drove one around last night, and thought "this sounds a little weak and is too quiet, I'll try the other exhausts and see how it sounds". Well, apparently when you change the exhaust, they change the engine to an electric motor at the same time, because it sounded just like a vacuum cleaner. I wouldn't mind all the cars sounding the same if they at least sounded GOOD! All they need to do is go to a dragstrip for one night, set up their microphones at half-track, record a good aftermarket exhaust, catless exhaust, and open headers, apply it to every V8 that they made sound like a vacuum, and I'll be happy.

 

[Philly]

I'm pretty sure the Zonda doesn't sound anything like it does in real life

 

[lucky_brett]

Yeah i thought the truck sounds were pretty horrible, but i usually have my music blasting in my computer when i play so i don't mind the noise.

 

[KiwiBoy]

Some pretty impressive engine sounds I can think of is the NSX, E55 AMG (When I turn up the volume on my kenwood sound system, and let the car idle, just idle. I can feel the deep growl the engine makes and it even vibrates the floor

 

[JTSnooks]

Many of them do sound good at idle with stock exhaust. It's when you rev them up or add a sport/racing exhaust that they turn into electric motors.

 

[KiwiBoy]

Sometimes I fool around in Arcade mode with a S2000, NSX or any car with Vtec and try to listen to the change in engine sound when it shifts to the high cam, I didnt notice any big difference, only a small increase in sound. Is anyone able to tell me can you hear any difference when the S2000 shifts cam at 6k rpm??

 

[Ford_Fan90]

If you think GT4 is remotely anything near the sounds of real life get GTR, GTR2, GTL or one of the PC based sims. Not to take anything away from PS2, GT4, PD etc. etc. etc. considering what they all are GT4 is a brilliant game.

 

[raz_10]

The only exhaust that I equip my cars with is the SR - exahust. In some cars it sounds better than the stock exhaust; it gives a deep growling sound, not the whinning anoying sound the Racing exhaus provides.

 

[dmanbluesfreak]

You're not the first to complain about the sounds. The only people who don't complain are the people who haven't heard a V8 with any type of aftermarket exhaust in real life. Another good example of their HORRIBLE modification of sounds for the sports/semi-racing/racing exhausts is the '69 Camaro Z/28. I drove one around last night, and thought "this sounds a little weak and is too quiet, I'll try the other exhausts and see how it sounds". Well, apparently when you change the exhaust, they change the engine to an electric motor at the same time, because it sounded just like a vacuum cleaner. I wouldn't mind all the cars sounding the same if they at least sounded GOOD! All they need to do is go to a dragstrip for one night, set up their microphones at half-track, record a good aftermarket exhaust, catless exhaust, and open headers, apply it to every V8 that they made sound like a vacuum, and I'll be happy.

Well, they need to be accurate for the cars that have stock exhaust, but for racing exhuast, your idea is superb!

 

[~Sp33~]

I think the vtec switch-over on Hondas vtec equiped cars is accurate enough, the Merc that you have to do the nurdbergring licence thing in sounds pretty awesome too. I do also think that the racing exhaust can sometimes ruin things.. I wonder how they recorded that??? did they play around with the file on computer?

 

[JTSnooks]

Sometimes I fool around in Arcade mode with a S2000, NSX or any car with Vtec and try to listen to the change in engine sound when it shifts to the high cam, I didnt notice any big difference, only a small increase in sound. Is anyone able to tell me can you hear any difference when the S2000 shifts cam at 6k rpm??

I've been in a few VTEC cars, and GT4, as far as I can tell, doesn't model them at all. Having been in a car when it switches cams, you can definitely tell the difference as the engine gets more "rough" and louder. It's not spectacular, nor is there a very noticeable increase in power (at least, not in a Prelude...they're pretty slow, really), but you can tell the difference in sound. It sounds as if you've gone from half-throttle to full-throttle. I can't tell any difference in sound in GT4, which is suprising given that they seem to be infatuated with Japanese cars. I would've thought they would have emphasized it, but oh well. I never drive them anyway.

As for the racing exhaust, I believe they just messed around with the sound on a computer. Either that, or they recorded a vacuum cleaner. Maybe a dirt devil. Some cars (mostly Japanese) actually do sound good and fairly accurate with sports/racing exhausts, but most large-engined cars just sound like crap.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Few cars they used real sounds on. The comment about CD limitations is way off. GT4 ONLY used 5GB out of the usable 7 or 8GB.... So they surely could fill the game full of real sounds.

Polyphony Digital simply didn't record all 700+ cars sounds, and they digitally created most of them, and yes, some sounds are WAY off.. an example, STi's sound nothing like they do in GT4. In real life, they have a very distinctive sound, in GT4, very generic boring sound.

But, I find the S2000 sounds very similar to the real S2000 (my brother owns one, just exhaust note, not engine), the Ford GT40 sound is also very close, but not exact.

 

[Famine]

Few cars they used real sounds on. The comment about CD limitations is way off. GT4 ONLY used 5GB out of the usable 7 or 8GB.... So they surely could fill the game full of real sounds.

Please create for me a totally accurate, 6-channel sound profile for any engine you like, without distortion through the entire rev range - then create altered states of that profile inside and outside the car (Bumpercam and Coptercam), and further altered states of the profile for NA tuning 1, NA tuning 2, NA tuning 3 (or Turbo 1, 2, 3, & 4), Supercharger, Sports Exhaust, Supersports Exhaust, Racing Exhaust, Engine Balancing, Port Polish, Displacement Increase, Chip Upgrade and Nitrous Oxide, and any combination thereof and have the finished file come under 4Mb.

Because that's what you'd have to do, for every car, to have the remaining disc space filled with real sounds. 3Gb spare = 4Mb per car. And it's no use having real sounds for some cars and fakes for the others (much like the "damage" proposed for GT2, where no visible damage was included for any car as one manufacturer refused to allow their cars to show visible damage).

I've no idea if this is possible, I should add, as I'm not a sound engineer - but it doesn't look like a realistic proposition.


On good enough speakers, rather than tinny TV ones, the vehicle sounds are... adequate enough to tell vehicles apart from one another - and engine types and even VTEC changeover points. I don't think they're necessarily as bad as people say they are, nor would I say that they are good. But I suspect with the combination of the larger capacity BluRay and the higher performance PS3 it should be the most improved part of the next game.

Polyphony Digital simply didn't record all 700+ cars sounds, and they digitally created most of them, and yes, some sounds are WAY off.. an example, STi's sound nothing like they do in GT4. In real life, they have a very distinctive sound, in GT4, very generic boring sound.

I suspect the problem there is that they recorded the engine, not the exhaust. The Boxer Woofle is quite distinctive, but with the bonnet/hood up and a mic in the engine bay it won't be nearly as perceptible as with a mic outside the car.

 

[Jay]

Part of the problem may be that PD probably recorded all these sounds in no load (or very little) situations, that being stationary in neutral where these engine sounds would have very little WOT loaded up recording (only if PD recorded the engines racing up and down the rev range). Engines distinctively change tone when they are under a reasonable load, like accelerating WOT.

For example you get a generic Chev V8 with a exhaust on it, you increase the revs to say 4000rpm in neutral, the engine will made a higher pitch hum at the exhaust, but if you drive that car in gear WOT at 4000rpm, it will roar.

 

[JTSnooks]

That's already been brought up, and is definitely one of the factors in the quietness and tone of the exhausts. Also, that doesn't explain why they lose all definition when you change the exhaust. Basically they just did a lame job on a majority of the cars. It almost makes you wonder if they've ever heard a large engine at full throttle, doesn't it?

 

[diospen]

One of my favourite engine sounds is that of the Alpine A110 - it growls! Downshifting produces a very aggresive sound.

However, I have never heard a real one, so I have no idea how accurate it is.

Given that it drives as well as it sounds, the Alpine is an all-round great little car.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Please create for me a totally accurate, 6-channel sound profile for any engine you like, without distortion through the entire rev range - then create altered states of that profile inside and outside the car (Bumpercam and Coptercam), and further altered states of the profile for NA tuning 1, NA tuning 2, NA tuning 3 (or Turbo 1, 2, 3, & 4), Supercharger, Sports Exhaust, Supersports Exhaust, Racing Exhaust, Engine Balancing, Port Polish, Displacement Increase, Chip Upgrade and Nitrous Oxide, and any combination thereof and have the finished file come under 4Mb.

Because that's what you'd have to do, for every car, to have the remaining disc space filled with real sounds. 3Gb spare = 4Mb per car. And it's no use having real sounds for some cars and fakes for the others (much like the "damage" proposed for GT2, where no visible damage was included for any car as one manufacturer refused to allow their cars to show visible damage).

I've no idea if this is possible, I should add, as I'm not a sound engineer - but it doesn't look like a realistic proposition.


On good enough speakers, rather than tinny TV ones, the vehicle sounds are... adequate enough to tell vehicles apart from one another - and engine types and even VTEC changeover points. I don't think they're necessarily as bad as people say they are, nor would I say that they are good. But I suspect with the combination of the larger capacity BluRay and the higher performance PS3 it should be the most improved part of the next game.



I suspect the problem there is that they recorded the engine, not the exhaust. The Boxer Woofle is quite distinctive, but with the bonnet/hood up and a mic in the engine bay it won't be nearly as perceptible as with a mic outside the car.

First. GT4 is 5GB, and contains sounds, tracks, cars, and all other information.... so I think another 3 GB for sound is plenty enough. Wouldn't you say? Sound files are recorded at a low RPM baseline, then the game increases it with the RPM, however, if the sound is wrong to begin with, then it will be off through the whole RPM range. OR here is the better suggestion, just get them right to begin with! Then the extra space won't be needed.

Also, I have played GT4 on a HDTV with a 6 Speaker surround sound setup. Some of the cars are still so far off, not even in the ball park of there real counter parts.

​

If Polyphony is just recording the engine sound, and not exhaust notes, then that's a mistake; Because when you are driving a car, you hear both, and when you are out side of the car, you here the exhaust note.

 

[Famine]

First. GT4 is 5GB, and contains sounds, tracks, cars, and all other information.... so I think another 3 GB for sound is plenty enough. Wouldn't you say?

Not a clue - that's why I asked if 4Mb (the remaining space per car on the disc) would be enough for a totally accurate soundfile with the specifications I noted.

I don't think it would be enough.

Sound files are recorded at a low RPM baseline, then the game increases it with the RPM, however, if the sound is wrong to begin with, then it will be off through the whole RPM range.

Incorrect.

The sound is recorded at idle. Then revving from idle to 1krpm. Then revving from idle to 2krpm. Then revving from idle to 3krpm - and so on in increments of 1krpm until redline is reached.

Even though Adam's Ruf Turbo R wasn't included in the final cut, he was present at such a recording and documented it.

Also, I have played GT4 on a HDTV with a 6 Speaker surround sound setup. Some of the cars are still so far off, not even in the ball park of there real counter parts.

The important part underlined.

With low-quality TV speakers that almost everyone pipes their PS2 through, all of the sounds are much of a muchness. As you increase speaker quality the sounds improve to a level where, as I said, cars are "adequate". On your set up (and mine) some of the cars still sound off - as opposed to most of them.

No-one can argue that the engine sounds are actually good in any way - but they aren't as universally bad as some make them out to be.

If Polyphony is just recording the engine sound, and not exhaust notes, then that's a mistake; Because when you are driving a car, you hear both, and when you are out side of the car, you here the exhaust note.

I quite agree - but it handily explains away almost all of the noise woes. The characteristic burbles, woofles, howls and grunts we hear and associate with cars are, predominantly, exhaust notes. Remove that and what do you get? GT4.

 

[harrytuttle]

Please create for me a totally accurate, 6-channel sound profile for any engine you like

Recording sounds in such a way is both a waste of time and the totally incorrect approach. Record the sound in MONO, then mix it in real-time in the game. The current run of GT games were - at best - Pro Logic encoded (gussied-up stereo). This means that there's not a whole lot of complexity to it, and mixing the approximate location of your engine/exhaust, wind noise, crowds, the car next to you, the jack-off with the air horn...it all gets mixed in real time. There's no way to accurately predict where such a sound is going to be when someone plays the game, so you mix it in real time.

Having created my own half-baked algorithms for sound (in real 3D no less), it's really not that hard. What is hard for the processor is mixing this for dozens of audio streams, then encoding all that into DTS or DD. It's not hard to program at all, just processor-intensive. Maybe this intensive processing was not within the PS2's capabilities (because I don't think storage was much of a problem), but maybe they'll be able to fix that with the greatly increase abilities of the PS3. I hope.

As for aftermarket upgrades, you modify the sounds parametrically: louder for exhaust upgrades, mix in the whine of a supercharger or whoosh of a turbo, but it's a waste of space & time to have different recordings for every car (which I guess is your point). PD seems to have just flat out replaced the base car sounds with some generic "turbo engine" sound or generic "race exhaust" sound.

Part of the problem may be that PD probably recorded all these sounds in no load (or very little) situations, that being stationary in neutral where these engine sounds would have very little WOT loaded up recording (only if PD recorded the engines racing up and down the rev range). Engines distinctively change tone when they are under a reasonable load, like accelerating WOT.

Exactly: there's a huge difference between a car being in 4th gear at 30MPH, and being in 1st at 30MPH. In 4th gear the car would be at WOT struggling at 1,500 RPM (for example), and in 1st you could have half-throttle
easily maintaing 30MPH at 5,000 RPM. Running the cars on a dyno (probably in 4th gear) with one mic for the exhaust and one over the hood would be one proper way to record the sounds.

Or maybe just record the sounds inside the damned car, where the driver actually hears things.

With low-quality TV speakers that almost everyone pipes their PS2 through, all of the sounds are much of a muchness. As you increase speaker quality the sounds improve to a level where, as I said, cars are "adequate". On your set up (and mine) some of the cars still sound off - as opposed to most of them.

True, but that still doesn't quite explain why GT has the most complaints when it comes to sound. I don't recall seeing many complaints about the sounds in Forza, PGR, etc.. I could be wrong though.

 

[JTSnooks]

So we all agree that PD should've recorded the engines at WOT, which is the main problem.

The next question is, why didn't they? Did they just not think about the differences between a car running with the throttle barely cracked at 5000rpm and one with the throttle wide open? I doubt it, as they'd already created 5 games before that.

So if they knew that's what they SHOULD do (and likely did for some of the more common/japanese cars), why didn't they?

There are a few reasons as I see it:
1. Time constraints - either a limited amount of time with the car (perhaps loaned from the owner), or a limited amount of time before the game was released. I'd say the former is a better, more likely excuse.
2. Lack of resources - They did lots of field testing, and if they didn't have an extremely portable rolling dyno (trialer versions do exist, I've seen them at car shows often), you have no real way of recording a car at full-throttle. Also, if you only have the stock version of the cars, there's no way to record various exhausts other than just removing the exhaust system below the manifolds (which would work for a racing exhaust). This would be a good excuse for cars they had to travel to test, but certainly not for all of them.
3. They decided that it was "unnecessary" - obviously it wasn't "necessary", because they've sold millions of copies even with the fairly crappy automotive soundtrack. So, in that respect they made a good decision.
4. Laziness - This isn't likely a big factor, because if they thought it was necessary for the experience, they likely would've spent more time on it. It was probably more of a "good enough" attitude, with sacrificing sound for quantity.

The final question is, will they deem it "necessary" in the next iteration of GT?
I believe they will, because of the fact that GT:HD will only have 30 cars to start out with. This should leave plenty of time for them to properly model the sounds, which I honestly believe they would like to do. Another factor that adds to it is that they'll be releasing various cars online for people to actually pay for individually. This means that they know that many people will hear the specifics about the car from friends or online before they purchase it, and if someone says "it sounds like a vacuum cleaner", they won't make as much money on it. But, nothing's guaranteed, and we can only hope..... unless someone works for PD here....

 

[S!Lpheed]

You're not the first to complain about the sounds. The only people who don't complain are the people who haven't heard a V8 with any type of aftermarket exhaust in real life. Another good example of their HORRIBLE modification of sounds for the sports/semi-racing/racing exhausts is the '69 Camaro Z/28. I drove one around last night, and thought "this sounds a little weak and is too quiet, I'll try the other exhausts and see how it sounds". Well, apparently when you change the exhaust, they change the engine to an electric motor at the same time, because it sounded just like a vacuum cleaner. I wouldn't mind all the cars sounding the same if they at least sounded GOOD! All they need to do is go to a dragstrip for one night, set up their microphones at half-track, record a good aftermarket exhaust, catless exhaust, and open headers, apply it to every V8 that they made sound like a vacuum, and I'll be happy.

Hell Yeah To That!!!

I've driven the Iroc-Z in every exhaust, I've used it a lot. My car does have aftermarket, I've also heard my car without a muffler (SICK) and when it still had it's stock muffler. I've been checking out some nascar games, they definitely sound real and NFS hot pursuit 2 sounds astonishingly real for all of those cars. There is always room for improvement but I have only heard 2 good sounding V8s in GT4, or atleast good enough. The gt40 race car and the corvette first gen race car.

 

[S!Lpheed]

I've been in a few VTEC cars, and GT4, as far as I can tell, doesn't model them at all. Having been in a car when it switches cams, you can definitely tell the difference as the engine gets more "rough" and louder. It's not spectacular, nor is there a very noticeable increase in power (at least, not in a Prelude...they're pretty slow, really), but you can tell the difference in sound. It sounds as if you've gone from half-throttle to full-throttle. I can't tell any difference in sound in GT4, which is suprising given that they seem to be infatuated with Japanese cars. I would've thought they would have emphasized it, but oh well. I never drive them anyway.

As for the racing exhaust, I believe they just messed around with the sound on a computer. Either that, or they recorded a vacuum cleaner. Maybe a dirt devil. Some cars (mostly Japanese) actually do sound good and fairly accurate with sports/racing exhausts, but most large-engined cars just sound like crap.

They needed something with more displacement so they chose a vacuum cleaner. XD

 

[94_XJ]

Part of the problem may be that PD probably recorded all these sounds in no load (or very little) situations, that being stationary in neutral where these engine sounds would have very little WOT loaded up recording (only if PD recorded the engines racing up and down the rev range). Engines distinctively change tone when they are under a reasonable load, like accelerating WOT.

Though true, there is no viable way of obtaining an accurate recording of engine/exhaust sounds in a moving vehicle. I think a dyno run would be the only option. It would have to be outdoors to remove most reverb and getting the whine out from the actual dyno would be a challenge as well.

I have been dissapointed with the sound in GT4 but some cars are spot on with their sounds. The turbo/supercharger sounds are quite lacking along with most V8 sounds. At idle, all the muscle cars have a great sound with the typical rumbling chug of a high compression, crazy cammed big/small block, but that sound goes away quickly. The GT40 race car I think has one of the better racing V8 sounds. The Ford GT however is completely different. Heck, I think the TVR Speed Six sounds more like a small block Chevy than the actual small block Chevs in the game.