I'm having 'issues' when using a wheel.

[RikkiGT-R]

Note - I realise there is another thread about driving with a wheel on the front page, but that thread is questioning which steering setting we use, whereas I'm actually having specific problems that I would like help/advice with.

Firstly, why am I faster with a controller? Even though when I use a wheel I take turns much smoother (I get far more 'perfect turn' scores with the wheel), and I never zig-zag around long bends with the wheel the way I often do with the controller.

My fastest laps on any track (apart from ovals/speedways) are always a second or two slower than the times I set with the controller. And on tracks like Le Mans and Nurburgring, multiply that gap by 3 or 5, often more. In fact I can't even make it around the 'Ring once cleanly when using a wheel.

Any car I drive with the wheel feels really unbalanced, spins out far easier and squirrels much more often (and for no bloody reason either). And this is the most annoying one: EVERY CAR understeers with the wheel. Like, massively understeers. I'll be driving around a decent sized bend, steering, but the car starts to drift towards the outside and I can feel the tires starting to lose grip. If I try to steer a little more into the bend, I instantly lose traction and spin out/crash.

This is really annoying me. I want to buy the Porsche GT2 wheel and pedals set-up, but I'm worried I'll buy a quality wheel only to suffer the same problems and feel like I wasted my money.

I currently use the Microsoft wheel (with paddle shifters) and pedals (only 2).
I don't use any driving aids.

 

[eric1971]

How long have you been using the wheel? It can take some time to get used to. I have no experience with the MS wheel, but I can tell you I am much faster with the GT2 than I was with a controller.

 

[Spagetti69]

Need to lift of the throttle Rikki, when accelerating out of a bend and loosing grip.
Simple as that really.

Not sure what cars your referring too though.

Interesting fact for you if you never knew.
Nearly all road production cars are set up by default to understeer.
Safety tests show that understeer is a lot easier to correct than oversteer. Hence manufactures purposefully set up cars to understeer for general public use.

Only reason I mentioned this is because not knowing what car or instance your referring too, in general your going to have to tune your suspension settings to get a good balanced car.

I prefer a bit of throttle oversteer in my setups if I'm driving anything with moderate power.
(hardly get above D class ATM, although Porsche will take me up soon I think).

Not sure of your tuning abilitys mate. Try softening your front ARB's or stiffening the rear to add front grip). A fine balance is needed though because too much is oversteer.
Check grip meters on telemetry. When car breaks lose, balance it so that all four tyres break traction at the same time. Obviously your then getting maximum grip from all 4 tyres.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[zr1chris]

Practice, practice, practice.

I remember when i got my MS wheel many moons ago (FM2 days). I was much slower at first but after extensive practice I was quicker with the MS wheel than with the controller.

 

[Spagetti69]

Oops. I see your fine with pad not wheel.

I think maybe your oversteering your wheel.
Example. With a wheel I can do a Scandinavian flick quite easy and show off by purposefully throwing out the tail.

On a pad the inputs are somewhat muted or buffered I think. Dependant on speed.

Upside is wheel feels a lot more direct but it's easy to over correct.

How long you used a Wheel?

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I've had the wheel now since November. I posted a thread back then, and I've just had a look - I remember posting that I was loving it. This is true, it genuinely felt great being able to steer properly without zig-zagging as I've mentioned, but then my next thread back then was posted in frustration as I was having the same problems as I'm having now.

I actually stopped playing Forza for a few months soon after, and have only started using the wheel again this past couple of weeks.

The wheel has just never felt completely natural to me, even though I've been driving manual cars [in the real world] for 16 years.

*right I've just checked the dates and it seems I've only used the wheel for a total of about 4 weeks. I guess I just need to get my head down and practice with it as much as possible? Would I really benefit from buying the GT2 I mentioned earlier, and is there genuinely so much difference between the MS wheel and Fanatec?

 

[Spagetti69]

My MS wheel is in the attic. Haven't used it for an age.
As for value? Do you play racing games a lot? Have you a dedicated place to set up?
That comes into the equation as much as "is it good enough"

I ve read statements such as "I feel every bump in the road". Tbh..... Nonsense. Not in Forza or GT. PC is where it's at for wheel feedback IMHO.

What Forza does get right is the progressive loss of grip.
In the example you gave of under steering whilst accelerating out of a corner you will feel the edge of traction before you go over the limit.
Imagine the centre spring effect whilst accelerating trying to straighten your wheel. If you continue to steer in and accelerate you will feel the centring effect back off. Effectively it's like the resistance slips away. Not of a cliff type of thing but progressively.
Your more aware of grip by feel, which is a very useful tool.

Wheel goes light if your airbourne. Really though how often are you flying.

Probably get ripped by the sim gods but don't expect to drive blind by the feedback from the road lol.

Just To add. I love my wheels G27/GT2 and the immersion it gives. Way more than a pad.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Spagetti I don't play racing games as much as I would like to. And it's simply because I'm struggling to get to grips with this wheel. I do have space for it, and I know I would play it non-stop if only it didn't irritate and frustrate the life out of me

 

[hennessey86]

Spagetti I don't play racing games as much as I would like to. And it's simply because I'm struggling to get to grips with this wheel. I do have space for it, and I know I would play it non-stop if only it didn't irritate and frustrate the life out of me

Forza isn't the best when it comes to wheels, it was designed for the control pad and it shows. You will catch up but you will have to change your driving style. Forza rewards aggressive driving styles, where as I like to be smooth. You have to come to some kind of compromise. Also what wheel are you using, because it could be the settings are not right for your driving style.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Also what wheel are you using, because it could be the settings are not right for your driving style.

I currently use the Microsoft wheel (with paddle shifters) and pedals (only 2).
I don't use any driving aids.

Mentioned in OP.

 

[Goshin2568]

Spagetti I don't play racing games as much as I would like to. And it's simply because I'm struggling to get to grips with this wheel. I do have space for it, and I know I would play it non-stop if only it didn't irritate and frustrate the life out of me

If that's true than definitely go for the GT2. The difference between it and the MS wheel is almost as big as from the pad to the MS wheel. It's great.

And yes, it takes lots of practice. It took me at least 3 months of playing regularly with a wheel until I got completely comfortable with it. Even moving from wheel to wheel takes a few weeks.

 

[adihodgson]

I understand how you feel mate, only the other day I had to question my abilty of driving in sim mode (all aids off) whilst using my GT2 wheel. I have instantly or magically found myself back in sim mode & driving quite aggresive using the Porsche GT3 RS DLC car. Took it around the Nurburg last night & hardly put a foot wrong but imo this cars handling out of the box is great - so much rear end traction. Yes, I found some understeer if too fast into corners but simply lifting off will pull the car back in allowing progressive acceleration out of the corning with virtually no oversteer. Again with the car in terms of over steer, I found this to be corrected it time before facing the wrong way down the track. 1 last thing to consider is knowing the abilty of the cars handling & setting corner speed accordingly. Sorry for the story but I say get the GT2, as it's a great bit of kit.

 

[t.o.]

In fact I can't even make it around the 'Ring once cleanly when using a wheel.

This pretty much answers your question. Frankly you aren't good enough yet to best your controller times, a method of control you've been using far longer than the wheel obviously.

Just because the CPU registers you a "perfect turn" doesn't mean you made the turn "perfectly".

 

[I'm Motarded]

Just relax while driving, sounds like you're trying to chase your previous lap times to hard and too fast.

If you want to do compare, set up a hotlap session around a smaller track like Tsukuba (a standard untuned car is better better for this), first with the controller, do about 3-5 laps or until you are happy with the time and make sure it's the ghost you will be chasing next time you start a hotlap session there, and finish the race.

Now start the same hotlap session with the wheel and the same car, now slowly build up speed until your tyres are fully heated, but still don't go flat out, just try to be smooth with the steering and accelerator while building more speed. concentrate on being smooth (the controller assists are smooth for you, and your fingers are easier to modulate than your feet).

Being smooth with the brakes is also important, abrupt lifts off the brake pedal unsettle the car far more than with a pad, it can cause the car to over-rotate into oversteer, so ease off slow and smooth in corner entry/trail braking.

It helped me to visualise how how I was inputting steering while hotlapping with the controller also, I think because although I knew when to turn in I was doing it too early.

And I say it again, relax, it's all too easy to get frustrated when you're not doing as well as you think you're not performing as you should or can. You'll perform better with a cool head

 

[hennessey86]

Mentioned in OP.

Right your biggest problem will be the Microsoft pedals, you will not be able to modulate the throttle properly with those pedals, hence the over steer. The CSR pedals will be a massive step up for you, they will give you much better throttle, break and accelerator control. Not to mention better force feedback through the GT2 wheel.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Right your biggest problem will be the Microsoft pedals, you will not be able to modulate the throttle properly with those pedals, hence the over steer. The CSR pedals will be a massive step up for you, they will give you much better throttle, break and accelerator control. Not to mention better force feedback through the GT2 wheel.

Nothing wrong with the pedals imo, especially the accelerator. The fastest guys in the game have been using these pedals since fm2, it hasn't slowed them down. The brake pedal I am inclined to agree with you, and there a fix for that spending a $2 rather than $60+

Spending loads of dollars on hardware doesn't necessary mean you'll go faster. He's already worried about spending more money and not liking the outcome, doesn't seem like wise advice to ask him to just that.

Question: I can't control my RWD MX5, I keep ending up backwards in a ditch
Answer: Buy a 599 GTO Evolution, it has traction control

 

[RikkiGT-R]

there a fix for that spending a $2 rather than $60+

Which is?

 

[hennessey86]

In my experience a decent set of pedals is worth a lot of time

 

[t.o.]

Which is?

I don't know what he has in mind but this is what I did when I had the M$ Wheel. It was a night and day difference I tell you, NIGHT AND DAY! Keep in mind you have to adjust your deadzone to get everything right when you do this so the brakes won't lock when you breathe on them.


http://wheelracers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=161

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I don't know what he has in mind but this is what I did when I had the M$ Wheel. It was a night and day difference I tell you, NIGHT AND DAY! Keep in mind you have to adjust your deadzone to get everything right when you do this so the brakes won't lock when you breathe on them.


http://wheelracers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=161

👍

That looks good. Will definitely do that this evening to see if it makes a difference - I certainly don't like the way the current brake pedal is really light and so I do occasionally lock up under what I thought was light braking

 

[t.o.]

👍

That looks good. Will definitely do that this evening to see if it makes a difference - I certainly don't like the way the current brake pedal is really light and so I do occasionally lock up under what I thought was light braking

If you do this right your experience will change for the better, by far.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Going to have to cut up my custom mouse pad for it though, but... if needs must.
Also need to find an elastic band reliable enough 💡

 

[t.o.]

Going to have to cut up my custom mouse pad for it though, but... if needs must.
Also need to find an elastic band reliable enough 💡

String will do but the rubber band adds just a little more to the "cushion-y" element.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Right that's working perfectly so far

Didn't even adjust the deadzone, just stuck the rolled up bit of mouse in there and took to the track to see what it was like.
Actually managed to beat one of my old controller lap times at C V De Montserrat
Braking definitely feels a lot more controlled, which in turns seemed to make me drive better, perhaps because I was more confident? Only went off-track once at Montserrat in 6 laps, and once at Laguna Seca in 11 laps.

I seem to have it sitting at a point where I can only go to the edge of braking limit, the brakes would lock if I could go any further. Plus they feel much more firm and realistic.

 

[I'm Motarded]

I don't know what he has in mind..

yes you do

 

[t.o.]

Right that's working perfectly so far

Didn't even adjust the deadzone, just stuck the rolled up bit of mouse in there and took to the track to see what it was like.
Actually managed to beat one of my old controller lap times at C V De Montserrat
Braking definitely feels a lot more controlled, which in turns seemed to make me drive better, perhaps because I was more confident? Only went off-track once at Montserrat in 6 laps, and once at Laguna Seca in 11 laps.

I seem to have it sitting at a point where I can only go to the edge of braking limit, the brakes would lock if I could go any further. Plus they feel much more firm and realistic.

Glad it's working out for you. Everyone should be doing this because honestly at default it's unplayable to me. You need something under that pedal.

 

[Spagetti69]

All my cars have Race brakes installed.

Take your car out to a test track. You need a decent straight for this.
Call up telemetry tab for grip levels. The one with the the 4 circled representing each tire.

1 accelerate to top speed and fully jam on the anchors.
Your looking to see which tired lock first. Generally it's the rear. Adjust to the front bias, normally around 1%

2 adjust the brake pressure so that the tired have a slight lock at the point of stopping. 5mph maybe? Don't be alarmed if you have to reduce your pressure to 68%(which sounds low). I can tell you now to drop the pressure to around 75% to start your tests.

Obviously none of this will work with elastics and sponge pads.

Your ultimately looking to have both sets of tires locking at the same time(in a straight turning will alter your results) and for the tires to lock at the very last point of travel.

Not locking up is key to maximise your stopping distances.
Funny enough I've read a post on GT that claims the game stops you quicker if you lock up in that, not sure but that's not how the real world works.

Works fine with me and my pedals.

Edit to add. My 68 average brake pressure could be because I tend to drive lower class street/sport tires.
R1 race tires/cars may allow more pressure without locking. Not sure my eyes water at that speed.

 

[t.o.]

Problem is in the real world when you jam on the brakes in the real world there is alot of resistance in the pedal letting you know you're getting close to some point of locking up. With the microsoft pedals there's nothing but the hard plastic at the end. The mouse pad gives you that , from there you can adjust the pressure and all to simulate where you are at the edge of locking.

 

[hennessey86]

String will do but the rubber band adds just a little more to the "cushion-y" element.

I have some Turbo s pedals that you can have, I would just require that you paid the postage.

 

[t.o.]

I'll stick to my Clubsport Pedals