Interpreting a cars handling

  • Thread starter Braddock
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Ive read many a thread on suspension tuning and whatnot, But the one thing I have failed to find is the interpretation of what a vehicle is doing. Outside of "understeer and oversteer", The more obvious condition to tell, It is hard for me to interepret other signs of an ill handling car. Unlike a large majority, I dont go for the gajillion HP car, But I prefer the stock car with some minor mods and good tuning to max out its performance, Then learning how to apply that on the track.

I guess what Im asking for, Is not tuning settings, But what to look for whilst Im tuning my car and then driving it to look for changes in the handling. The first thing I started with was setting the spring rate to maximum (per the sticky) and worked from there to elimnate any over or under steer. I ran many laps until I ran consistant times while improving my line around the track. My problem arises when I go to the next thing to adjust. Its so hard to notice any changes when changing the other settings. Are there any good pposts addressing this? What are some other things I should look for in the cars handling?
 
I've played GT since the original but I'm relatively new to GT4 and my experience of this game so far is that most of the car settings have such a small effect that you can barely notice the difference at each end of the spectrum. This means it's pretty hard to cure any major handling problems, even with frankly ridiculous settings. I'm trying to stabilise an Audi Le Mans atm, and it has a nasty tendancy to fishtail. In real life, hardening the suspension should help greatly with this problem by stopping the car's weight shifting from left to right as it loads up under cornering forces. On GT4 though, it seems to just make it twitchier. Now it just whips round in a fraction of the time - same effect, minimised chance to recover it. Yay! Simple under/oversteer tendancies are all that i've had any success countering so far with inverted spring and damping settings to what works in reality - I don't know if anyone else has found this?
 
Yeh, Thats basically what Im talking about. Obvious abnormailties in handleing are easy to affect, But its the other little idiocyncrities that I have a hard time identifying. Or hell, Even knowing what to look for is another problem. I have no racing or driving experience other than from what Ive gathered watching NASCAR and other racing circuits.

I soo cant wait until we can race online. I just hope they get it right. Id pay $50 a year for good connection as opposed to free connectivity.
 
Braddock
I guess what Im asking for, Is not tuning settings, But what to look for whilst Im tuning my car and then driving it to look for changes in the handling. The first thing I started with was setting the spring rate to maximum (per the sticky) and worked from there to elimnate any over or under steer. I ran many laps until I ran consistant times while improving my line around the track. My problem arises when I go to the next thing to adjust. Its so hard to notice any changes when changing the other settings. Are there any good pposts addressing this? What are some other things I should look for in the cars handling?
Well, for starters, welcome to GTPlanet.

Whenever I buy or win a car, my first repsonse is to drive it half a doesn't laps somewhere like Apricot Hill that I know well and that gives the car a general, well-rounded thrashing. AH has some good technical bits, some distinct elevation changes, and two long straights; this means it is neither a pure handling track nor a pure power track.

The two things a car can really do are limited to either oversteer (sliding too much to maintain good velocity or spinning out) or understeer (failing to negotiate the turn). After you have the basic balance down, then you need to pay attention to what conditions provoke what behaviours in the car.

For instance, a decently set up car may oversteer on corner entry under trail braking, but understeer on corner exit when you're on the power... so generically tuning to eliminate one of those problems may make the other one worse. Springs, ride heights, and swaybars are good ways to attack first-level problems (my car understeers a lot), but once you get into combination issues like this, you need to move to damper adjustments and playing with the stiffness of compression and extension at each end in order to find the best compromise between the differeing conditions.

Read through ///M-Spec's Guide above and you will start to see different methods of how to approach adjustments. The thing that is ver important is to correctly identify what problems you're trying to solve, in detail.
 
go out and buy a book on vehicle dynamics. a real book on real vehicle dynamics. not a gt4 book on gt4 vehicle dynamics. if you can adjust a hypothetical real car to your liking, you can do the same in any game, be it gt4 or gpl.

I rarely made too many adjustments to cars in gt3 because you just cant tune a car accurately when you dont know what the settings do. you can make a car overly stiff and have it plow through corners like a boat, put on some supersofts and set record laptimes. but if you want to really be able to set a car up to your liking, if you want to know how every slight adjustment is going to affect the handling ahead of time, you need to learn from those who know best in the real racing world.

i suggest checking out saemotorsport.org . they have a great bookstore, or you can pick any of the books up at amazon or bn.com .

which book to start with?

-going faster: mastering the art of racedriving (by carl lopez, it is basically the curriculum that is applied at skip barber racing school. great book to get you to start thinking as a race driver)
-carroll smith's tune to win (smith also wrote drive to win and engineer to win. i think the above book is a better starter, but smith conveys his points well and you can learn a lot from all of his books)
-fundamentals of vehicle dynamics by thomas gillespie (pretty advanced, isnt really applicable to anything other than building your own openwheel racecar. interesting stuff though)

if you have an old pc and a wheel, or just an old pc. go buy a wheel and buy grand prix legends at an online shop for $10 or whatever it costs. get good enough so that you can control a car for a lap without crashing, then checkout this great site. http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/Setups.html


some personal advice. I try to refrain from the terms understeer and oversteer when I talk about car handling, because a car doesnt just simply understeer or oversteer. it behaves differently based on the situation it is in. you need to think about when a little understeer may be your friend, then use it to your advantage. I dont really like an "oversteering" car, because it may point into the apex fine, but then when i am exiting a corner and applying throttle i have to refrain as the tail doesnt know what it is doing. thinking outside of the box yet?



for example, when i was setting up the M coupe with custom suspension, i set the rear springs 1 or 2 lbs heavier than the front. why on earth would i do this? the car would understeer horribly right? well in this case "understeer" actually means that the rear tires are having grip when they need it, now that isnt so bad now is it? i like a relatively softer front spring so i can get near all of the cars mass over the front wheels when im braking into a corner, this of course equates to front grip.the M coupe is especially squirley, and by making sure the rear is planted i am allowed to accelerate out of corners with brute force. corner exit is probably one of the most important factors for quick laptimes.

so i take this advantage we have here upon exiting corners, and I want to keep it. but actually what one would assume still happens to be true, this car doesnt want to point itself into the apex. i must dial this out, but instead of balancing the springrates more i leave them, remember i want all that rear grip on corner exit. i use my knowledge of other variables to get that "oversteer" i want on corner entrance. ah yes, stabilizer bar, i still have you in my bag of tricks. crank up the front stabilizer to max, and leave the rear relatively low, say 3 or 4. the car seems to understeer a lot less now, that stiff rear all of a sudden doesnt seem to be a problem, but we use the sideffect of a stiff rear to our advantage. also, if you look at the front end, the softer springs gives us a lot of longitudinal weight transfer to play with on corner entry in the form of grip later, when we adjust shocks, but because of the stiff stabilizer, lateral weight transfer is minimized.(couldnt word this to sound any better, but it makes sense)

try this yourself, and it may not workout so well. the rest of your car should be well balanced. You still need to fool around with shock valving to get weight transferred where you need it, when you need it. and i like to keep camber angles as close as possible. starting at -2 degrees at both ends, and adjusting up if i need any extra lateral grip at an end, or down if i dont like the sideffects you get with camber. i find generally i dont need to use too much camber if i get the car setup good otherwise, and im glad because a car with a lot of camber can be tougher to keep control of with just a joystick.

i hope my little narration has given you a little bit of an idea of how you should be thinking when setting up a car. i didnt intend on telling you how to setup a car, but try it if youd like. pickup one of the above books to really get these concepts cemented into your brain. youll be glad you did.
 
Thanx. Appreciate your input. All I see too often on the web is how folks have boosted their cars to unheard of HP. Thats too easy. I wanna actually learn the car and how it handles on a particular track and to adjust it accordingly. To me, Thats the goal in GT. Coincidentally, Apricot is the track Ive been running on. Im running as many laps as possible, Trying to obtain the fastest time I can while maintaining that time lap after lap. Then I start to look for the little nuances created in each turn. Its so hard to concentrate on the turn while trying to notice a handling discrepency. Especially when youre fine tuning the car. Anyways, Thax for yalls inout. Ill keep on keeping on.

On a side note, Have any of yall ever just emailed a car to someone to test drive for their input on where the car is lacking. Sometimes someone else will notice something that you yourself might not.
 
Oh, heck yes, I do that all the time. I'll tell one of my friends how I have it setup up and what I expect it to do that it's not doing, or how it could be better.

For the record, power is what I usually add last unless I am just flat being outrun. Usually I start with tires, then suspension, then race transmission, then power. In GT4 I've been sticking with the stock S2 tires because they're decent and a lot of the early races prohibit R-compound rubber.
 
i was thinking of posting my garage up in my personal info so people can see easily. im really happy how my M coupe and NSX*R drive.

whatsup duke, long time no talk. im that guy with the E30. i was banned as advanr last year because i kept shooting my mouth off waiting for gt4, lol. ill take a look at one of your cars anytime.

brodack, that is really cool. apricot hill was the first track i started testing cars on in gt3. it is really fun. i kept lapping and lapping and lapping till i couldnt get any better, lol.

you have to have a questioning mind if youre ever to expect greatness of yourself. you have to want to learn the actual truth, not just passing falses off as truths to yourself. no, car setup isnt as easy that every 14year old bum can master it with a few more camber here and a stiffer springrate there. infact, you must first have a very excellent understanding of driving before you start to open a whole new bag of tricks.

he who thinks he knows everything has nothing left to learn. he who thinks he knows nothing has everything left to learn. i dont know the truth to car setup, search, search! fill your brain with knowledge!
 
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