Iraq - Let the Backpedalling Begin

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True, the evidence was dubious; largely why I was not a big fan of the war. Though, I do feel somewhate good freeing the Iraqis, despite their apparent patience of a fruit fly. But it is hard to be understanding when you are in 120f heat with no air conditioning. Well, there is some solace that can be taken in the, I believe, high probability that there is not a chance in hell the Iraqi peoples lives would have been freed by containment sanctions and internal coup. Unfortunately, Iraq is not Liberia or some other country with low development, you can't scare Saddam with 2000 peace keeper troops.

The rebuilding is embarrassing even with the stories of progress.

I do understand the point about credibility and manipulaton, but the world should be very careful about their criticism. Simply put, containment means one thing. The allowed suffering of many when trying to save them is too much of a burden and could hypothetically expand the problem. Criticise war, but it has a more immediate ability to end an evil. If only we (America) were faster, more aggressive at security and rebuilding.

PS. one might notice I dislike containment. I say they might
 
Bush and co. spun the war the wrong way. They should have stuck to making the UN enforce their rules, instead of trying to justify (unecessarily) a war to the american people. We could have gone to war without the WMD's or even the Iraqi people plight. We could have gone to war on the basis of enforcing the cease fire agreement from the first gulf war alone.
 
What a crock! Why is it we have huge problems in the Mid-East when there's a Bush in Office? Of course, we still can't find Bin-Laden OR Hussein! I'm tired of talking about it. The fact is, it's out of our hands & it'll take years before the truth starts coming out.

BTW; Why is the flag reversed on our soldier's uniforms now?
 
NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Personally. I would have to say that This war on Iraq was totally a Publicity Stunt For President Bush. I don't mean any Offence by saying that.

NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.
 
Originally posted by Super-Supra
NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Personally. I would have to say that This war on Iraq was totally a Publicity Stunt For President Bush. I don't mean any Offence by saying that.

NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

That's OK, you're probably right!
 
PRESS RELEASE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop Ashcroft's
`Heinrich Himmler II' Bill—
While You Still Can
by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
March 16, 2003 (EIRNS)—This statement was released today by the Presidential candidate's political committee, LaRouche in 2004, for circulation as a mass leaflet.

Imagine!

The United States' war-machine invades Iraq. Baghdad is bombed simultaneously with thousands of cruise missiles. Violent anti-American demonstrations break out around the world. Bloody rioting threatens to topple several Middle Eastern governments. Then, a series of terrorist incidents hit U.S. facilities and personnel abroad. Television screens around the world brutalize the eyes of viewers with images of dead children in Baghdad. Around the world, the unrest and rioting builds up.

Imagine?

What will happen next? Imagine!

Attorney General John Ashcroft is on television to announce that the FBI has foiled a major terrorist plot inside the United States, a plot which he alleges would have killed thousands of Americans. He paints a picture of something on a scale equal to the Sept. 11, 2001 events. Ashcroft declares that U.S. law enforcement and intelligence agencies require strengthened powers to prevent terrorist attacks under these wartime conditions. Today the President will submit new emergency anti-terrorism legislation to Congress for immediate passage.

That evening, President Bush will address the nation, to demand that Congress immediately pass the "Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003," or members of Congress will be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of Americans, in attacks which he says terrorists are now planning on U.S. soil.

Panicked members of Congress will rush through the new anti-terrorist legislation. Only a handful of dissenting votes will resist. Most members have been too terrified to read the bill that they just passed. The new law gives sweeping new powers to the Justice Department and FBI, the same kinds of powers which Carl Schmitt's Notverordnung doctrine delivered to Adolf Hitler on February 28, 1933. After that, the members of the Congress will never vote against any bill which Ashcroft demands.

The connection is not accidental. Attorney General Ashcroft was indoctrinated in this by disciples of Chicago University professor Leo Strauss, who owed his own career to that same Carl Schmitt. Ashcroft, like Vice President Dick Cheney, uses the exact same, Leo Strauss-copied arguments of Carl Schmitt, the same arguments which transformed Hitler into a dictator on February 28, 1933. With the passage of that Act, the United States would have given rebirth to Nazi Heinrich Himmler's police-state/concentration-camp system inside the U.S.A. itself.

None of the above is fiction; it is real, and ready to go. For months, staffers in John Ashcroft's Justice Department have been drafting and putting the finishing touches on a sequel to the 2001 "USA/Patriot Act"—which has become known as "Patriot II, " better named "Heinrich Himmler II." When members of the Senate Judiciary Committee inquired as to rumors that a new anti-terrorism bill was being drafted, the Justice Department lied, denying that any such legislation was in preparation.

Don't be surprised! In January 2001, during the fight to block the confirmation of John Ashcroft as U.S. Attorney General, Lyndon LaRouche warned that, under crisis conditions, Ashcroft would be used to force through dictatorial measures comparable to the 1933 Nazi emergency laws in Germany—the infamous Notverordnungen. LaRouche warned that it was not simply Ashcroft's role as head of the Justice Department that would be so dangerous, but his role as a leading member of a crisis-management team in the Administration as a whole.

That has been borne out, by, for example, Ashcroft's role in crafting the Pentagon's "enemy combatant" justification for holding terrorist suspects—including U.S. citizens—incommunicado in military custody, removing them from the jurisdiction of the civilian courts. Likewise, Ashcroft's role in the unwarranted spreading of panic and hysteria by the new Department of Homeland Security, as in Nazi Germany.

Ashcroft is aiming at you.

Don't think for a moment that the new powers being sought by Ashcroft are only aimed at foreign terrorists and immigrants. While the first, post-9/11 round of dragnets and secret detentions chiefly targetted Arabs and Muslims in the United States, the proposed "Patriot II" would give the Justice Department the power to wield those same powers against all U.S. citizens. For example:

It loosens the present requirements of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) pertaining to "national security" wiretaps and break-ins. Currently it is required that the target be shown to be an agent of a "foreign power" or organization. In the new bill, the definition of "foreign power" can include unaffiliated individuals who are not shown to be acting on behalf of a foreign government or international organization.


Individuals could be subject to FISA surveillance simply if they are suspected of gathering information for a foreign power; the existing requirement that the activities potentially violate Federal law, is eliminated.


Purely domestic activity could be the subject of secret "national security" investigation. A new category of domestic security, or domestic intelligence-gathering, is created, which allows secret surveillance; this includes "conspiratorial activities threatening the national security interest"—a category so incredibly broad that political activity could be easily fall under it.


The standards for "pen registers" (obtaining a record of phone numbers called by an individual, and records of Internet-mail addresses used or web-sites visited by an individual) are enormously loosened, so that the target need not have any connection to terrorism. All that is necessary is that it be used "to obtain foreign intelligence information."


An American citizen could be stripped of his citizenship and expatriated, if the Justice Department "infers" from his conduct that he is giving material support to an organization designated as "terrorist" by the government—even though the person believed he was supporting legitimate activity.
The "Patriot II" bill would also wipe out some traditional due-process guarantees, invade personal privacy, and further throw a blanket of secrecy over legal proceedings:

The use of secret arrests and detentions, and the exemption of records of arrests and detentions from public disclosure, will be expanded.


In cases involving classified information, the use of ex parte and in camera proceedings—in which prosecutors can secretly submit information to the court—is allowed upon a prosecutor's request. Thus, an accused person or his lawyer is unable to challenge the goverment's information, because it is given to the judge in a closed, back-room proceeding.


The use of so-called "Administrative Subpoenas" and "national security letters," allowing the government to obtain financial and other types of records without a court order, will be expanded, and disclosure of such a non-court subpoena is prohibited.


Presently, a person receiving a grand jury subpoena and testifying before a grand jury is permitted to publicly discuss the fact that he has been subpoenaed and what happened in the grand jury. The new bill would gag such witnesses, and prohibit them from responding to false information or smears leaked to the press by prosecutors—a common occurence. A witness could not talk to his family, friends, news media, or even his Congressman.


The new law will instantaneously wipe out a number of court orders limiting spying and surveillance of political activity, which were the result of lawsuits arising out of unconstitutional, "Cointelpro"-type police and FBI programs in the 1960s and '70s.
Do you wish to see into the strange mind of Attorney General Ashcroft? What ticks there? Look at the late Chicago University's leading fascist ideologue, Ashcroft's Professor Leo Strauss.

The state-of-mind behind such proposals, is indicated by the following background, here presented only in bare outline. Recent news stories in Germany and the U.S.A. named John Ashcroft as one of a number of prominent protégés of the late philosopher Leo Strauss. Others named were: now-Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz (a leading advocate of war against Iraq for the past 12 years), Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, neo-conservative warhawk William Kristol of the Weekly Standard, former Secretary of Education William Bennett, and National Review publisher William Buckley.

Although Strauss was nominally a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany, he was actually one of a network of Frankfurt School Jews, such as Theodor Adorno and Hannah Arendt, who, lacking the prerequisites of a Nazi Party card, left to spread their decadent philosophy against the United States which they hated as "The New Weimar." Strauss came to the United States in the 1930s under the personal sponsorship of Carl Schmitt, the "Crown Jurist of the Third Reich," who provided the legal rationales for the devolution of Weimar Germany into the dictatorial Nazi state.

Strauss, in his long academic career in the United States, never abandoned his fealty to the three most notorious shapers of the Nazi philosophy: Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, and Schmitt. Carl Schmitt, in his 1932 book The Concept of the Political, contended, as do the Straussians today, that it is essential to define an "enemy" for the population to fight; only a belief in a mortal enemy can unify the population, and invest the regime with meaning. Today, for John Ashcroft, not only do the "terrorists" constitute that required enemy, but also, those who complain about his police-state methods. Recall Ashcroft's statement during a Senate hearing in December 2001:

"To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies...."

Ashcroft's "Himmler II" legislation would give draconian, Gestapo-type powers to the Justice Department, to deal with those whom the Attorney General defines as giving aid to terrorists, by opposing the Administration's war drive, or by complaining of "lost liberty."

While you are still a citizen, make the Congress stop him, now!
 
I think it was legitimate. Heck, if I were president, that would've definitely been something I'd do-- The guy was a hazard to others, and he needed to be kicked out. I strongly believe that government's only place in the grand scheme of things is to protect citizens from having their rights infringed upon, and Saddam was one of the biggest offenders in that-- We should've taken him down during the Gulf War, but now is all well and done.

I agree in danoff in that they should've spun it a different way-- The WOMD case was fairly weak. Of course, I personally don't care if he had WOMD or not... he was still a murderer, and do we care if murderers have WOMD? Nada. I don't mean to be redundant, but he was an unnecessary threat to human lives, and that's as good as reason as any to get rid of him.
 
Which is fine - except now it looks like you've suckered the UK and Australia into participating in an illegal war, and we were dumb enough to sign the International Criminal Court agreement at the UN (unlike the US - no wonder you didn't sign it).

Thanks for that.
 
Well, I won't argue about that, since I don't know a single thing about it. ;) But in the grand scheme of things, he should've been gone, no doubt (which I see you agree with me on, but others still don't).
 
Well, I'm not sad he's gone - but I really don't believe the ends justify the means here.

The stupid thing is - and I know I've said this before - in the wake of September 11 the US could have put just about anything in front of the UN Security Council and it would have been approved - but the way they went about forcing the issue through, and giving the UN Weapons Inspectors token time to find anything, it's pretty clear the US had no intention other than to invade Iraq. I'm starting to think the US preference was that the UN didn't get involved. Dunno why.

Do you think the world's a safer place now as a result of the Iraq war? I don't.
 
This situation has really started to concern me. I'm standing her ein the US, trying to make a living wage and support my wife and the Zoo, worrying about the economy, saving for retirement (which seems like a joke), and basically surviving life. The Economy is in a tail spin and the news leaks out that keeping our boys and girls in harm's way in Iraq is consting us $4billion a month. On top of that our occupation is expected to last 4 years. That's nearing $200billion dollars for a country who's people don't want us there.

When concerned with WOMD I was for clearing out Saddam and his regime. The genocide attrocites were a concern, but not high on the priority list. WOMD means he was looking to attack someone. Knowing his hatred for the US, I was concerned with my personal safety. Nothing like seeing the government you voted for do a bold faced lie. I'd be hard pressed to vote for him again.

Now, to get back to the United Nations. Was it the US didn't want the UN to get invovled, or did the US not really care what the UN had to say? I'm caught in a bit of a quandry. When it comes to regulations and sanctions, everyone in teh united Nation pitches in. When it comes to peacekeeping it seems the US, UK and Australia share the deed. With the US being the most prominent heavy hand.

I can quote Uncle Ben and Dr. Ian Malcolm. "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility." And "When they realized they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

I realize the United States has a power greater than any other nation on this earth. It's time we temper that power with gentlemanly manners, and not a 6th grade bully attitude.

With the United Nations, I think this document needs a reading: http://www.mikenew.com/un-debt.html. I'll let it be known that just because it's posted on the web, doesn't mean it's correct. I'll attempt to do more research on this over the weekend to find more documentation to back it up.

So where does this leave me? I don't think the world is a safer place. With Saddam in power, we knew who to watch. Now that he's gone underground, along with Osama and the Taliban, we don't know where our enemies are. The US needs to stop thinking about protecting the world from itself, and start thinking about the land inside it's borders.

Why doesn't Japan have terrorist attacks? They don't pick fights or dictate how everybody needs to live their life. That may be a stretch, but it's easy to surmise.

For the first time in my life, I'm scared. Sure, nuclear war was scary, but that was instant death. Now, we've ticked off so many countries, that we don't know where, when or how it's coming. To combat that we've given incredibly wide powers to the homeland security project. Ever watch "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith? That's what really scares me.

AO
 
Originally posted by Super-Supra
NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Personally. I would have to say that This war on Iraq was totally a Publicity Stunt For President Bush. I don't mean any Offence by saying that.

NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Care to elaborate a little bit on that?
 
Originally posted by Super-Supra
NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Personally. I would have to say that This war on Iraq was totally a Publicity Stunt For President Bush. I don't mean any Offence by saying that.

NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

I'm offended.
 
I'd like to see why Super-Supra seemed so intent on making it abudantly clear he intended no offense.

SS: Why do you think it Bush did it as a publicity stunt? Back your opinion with sound reasoning. I'm not picking a fight, but am interested in why you think George Bush focused billions of Dollars and hundreds of thousands of troops on removing Saddam form power. Any body can spout opinions, but not everybody can support their opinion with reason.

Give it your best shot.

AO
 
Originally posted by Super-Supra
NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.

Personally. I would have to say that This war on Iraq was totally a Publicity Stunt For President Bush. I don't mean any Offence by saying that.

NOTE: I Clearly mean no offence through this.
You're probably right.

He probably launched a phony war under false pretenses which would be found out at the end of the war, and committed hundreds of thousands of British, Australian, and American troops (many of which have payed the highest price a human being can pay), all to be found out at the end of it all by a 15-year-old boy with a Dodge Viper in his avatar.

And what, for good publicity? Um...

you've suckered the UK and Australia into participating in an illegal war,

Maybe, but I question why the UK and Australia got involved in the first place, or how we let President Bush divert so far off the 'terrorism' war to hunt down a government whose motives were similar but opposite to the president's.

Who's the real criminal here?
 
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