Is Hell in the Bible ?

[ledhed]

I looked around and have found arguments... God being forgiving etc...

I think this a worthy subject..although I myself may not be the "right " person to bring it up...since in many opinions I most likely will be finding out soon enough by my own self...BUT I digress...


What do you think ? just from what the Bible says?

As a seperate question ..I have to ask New or OLD testament ..when they conflict...how do you choose ?

Swift ...I got it myself ...must have been a brain cramp...too many pages i have to read ...not enough time ...

 

[dahze_dichriste]

It is mentioned somewhere around 30 times in the Old Testement and 20 in the New Testement.

Now whether those of us who believe in the existence of hell, we may not all agree on the length of time one would stay there. Personally, I don't think hell is eternal. In Revelations, the verse states: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." I take it to literally mean that sinners go to hell and then hell and sin is destroyed.

This raises up the point of the after-life account of Lazarus, I believe. He was able to see those in hell, and a man asked him to give him a drink. Once the angel said that it was impossible, the man asked Lazarus to witness to his family once Jesus brought him back. So this appears to point to hell being ongoing.

But, forgive me as I don't have the proper sources, Biblical scholars say that the three days he spent dead, he was witnessing to those who were in hell as a second chance and to steal the metaphorical keys of death from Satan. This appears that hell is a holding place that possibly non-Jews resided in, and those who don't accept Jesus will go before the Judgment. Those who do believe have their own "holding" place, albeit some part of heaven or not. Jesus affirmed this in his promise to one of the thieves on the cross.

I would say that the New Testement must be used because the nature of salvation and the so-called "path to hell" changed. The moment Jesus died, salvation became available to all. While the Jews had been sacrificing pure animals for their sins, the sins continually were plowed forward another year. Jesus' death changed that.

Hell, just like Heaven, is one of those realms of Biblical doctrine left somewhat unknown. While we know what to do to prevent from going there, there's a lot of debate over its nature, as I hope you can see. It's a path everyone must choose, unless one doesn't believe this stuff, of course.

 

[ledhed]

So whats up with all the purgatory crap ? do you think " hell " was invented by men just to make money or gain favors from " sinners" ? I keep trying to remember the Bible was written by men. But also according to history was ..."interperted " by a Papal conference..and sort of ammended ?

Why and by whose authority did "GODS " word get ammended ?

I am easily confused . I know about the reformation...and the scism..and the politics of the one and only church...but..when did it all get sorted out and by whom ?

BTW ..point me towards the hell stuff in the new testament..I know about the OLD stuff...I am still a bit messed up on the new testament..all the different opinions and books . NO JOKE .

I went to catholic school that alone makes me eligable for hell in some eyes...GO figure. ( I thought NUNS were HELL ) .

 

[Swift]

*Swift pics himself up off the floor and shakes head*

Yes it is. Much likedahze_dichriste says, but I wouldn't say it's uknown.

There are many places in the bible, most especially in the New Testament.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So whats up with all the purgatory crap ? do you think " hell " was invented by men just to make money or gain favors from " sinners" ? I keep trying to remember the Bible was written by men. But also according to history was ..."interperted " by a Papal conference..and sort of ammended ?

Pergatory is completely made up by people. It has no biblical basis.

 

[dahze_dichriste]

Ledhed, the process of assembling what we now know is the Bible was a process that tried to purge books that did not line up with the books written by the disciples of Jesus and Paul, or to use books that were referenced by other books. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been found to have been written directly around the time of Jesus. If our current Bible is wrong, wouldn't the examination of these scrolls give others a great case to scrutinize our beliefs?

 

[ledhed]

Ledhed, the process of assembling what we now know is the Bible was a process that tried to purge books that did not line up with the books written by the disciples of Jesus and Paul, or to use books that were referenced by other books. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been found to have been written directly around the time of Jesus. If our current Bible is wrong, wouldn't the examination of these scrolls give others a great case to scrutinize our beliefs?

I am not questioning the dead sea scrolls..I have not actually read them or the " TRANSLATIONS " ..notice the ( s ) after translation . I have only seen or have access to ' briefs' or summary stuff...

If you have a link ? ..And yes me and GOOGLE are very well met .

I do intend to look further into the matter .
I understand from a linguistic standpoint they have been a great help though .
Theologions seem to differ..as if thats news ..

Its rough when you start to study theology...and run into all of the "contradictions " especially when you try to consider how the rulers of the time distorted the " meaning" to fit their needs . and BTW at the same time much as Hitler did in modern times ..tried to erase what contradicted the message they wanted put forth. And remember that dude only had a few years to screw stuff up...

at any rate I do history..so this stuff coincides with what I am looking at now..I find that hell seems to pop up when people need controlling or the " Church " at that time needs money...sort of like indulgences..but not as bad as the inquisition . Some states just killed jews when they neede money or extorted them..others just scared the living crap out of people and if that did not work..then they said .."YOU ARE A HERETIC" ...and killed them and took land and money ..etc.

At any rate I am looking for consistency RE..HELL in the scripture to counter historical fact. it could be they were just using a fact or embelishing on it to make cash and gain power.

You guys are way ahead of me in the " Book " so if you can help ?


( I am googling the passages as I read...thanks Swift ).

 

[FoolKiller]

Now whether those of us who believe in the existence of hell, we may not all agree on the length of time one would stay there. Personally, I don't think hell is eternal. In Revelations, the verse states: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." I take it to literally mean that sinners go to hell and then hell and sin is destroyed.

In the verse you quote it has also been translated as Hades. Before this Hell is thrown into the lake of fire Revelation talks about those who had gone before being brought forth out of Hell/Hades to be judged by their deeds. This leads me to believe that this is the place that either everyone goes to or those who died without having accepted Christ go to. Those who were never given the chance to know Christ are judged by deeds and then those that had the chance are judged by their choice to accept Christ and be forgiven.

After the judgements and reading of names from the Book of Life those whose names were not in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire. I believe this to truly be the eternal Hell people speak about today.

This raises up the point of the after-life account of Lazarus, I believe. He was able to see those in hell, and a man asked him to give him a drink. Once the angel said that it was impossible, the man asked Lazarus to witness to his family once Jesus brought him back. So this appears to point to hell being ongoing.

To me this confirms the holding place before judgement idea in that the man might not have been bad but never met Jesus in life. In order to hopefully get his family into Heaven he wants Lazarus to witness to them about Jesus so that they may accept him and go straight to Heaven.

I hope that makes sense.

Pergatory is completely made up by people. It has no biblical basis.

I kind of disagree here. I think it is based on the idea of Hades/Hell from Revelation being where those who had gone before come from to be judged. That points to a holding place of some sort, but what kind I don't know.

Now, as for Purgatory being the place where a person can work off their sins and repent even after death; I have never seen anything that explains to me where this came from. My wife, who teaches religion education to second graders at her Catholic church, can't explain that to me.

Of course I quite trying to understand some of the Catholic beliefs after I realized they think that Mary ascended into heaven and never died, which is why she is reverred and held almost as high as Jesus...higher for some Catholics. I remember my wife asking me to go to the Day of Ascension service (one of those required services) with her. I went thinking that it would make more sense to celebrate the ascension after Easter. Then when the priest began the sermon I just went So I quickly began flipping through the little Cathoilc version of the Bible they provide in every seat and realized this wasn't coming from any of the books that aren't in Protestant versions of the Bible. This was all from versus I had heard before. That's when I realized they make some big stretches in their interpretations.

Considering the political influences on Catholicism I would guess that the idea of purgatory being a place to redeem yourself even after death was a way to prevent kings and other political leaders from removing the church. It was a final out so that any act committed by those in positions of power, that would either not do confession or not be humbled enough to beg forgiveness of anyone, could feel at ease because if they do die they can work it off.

To me the idea of a soul labor camp sounds a bit far-fetched.



ledhed, if you are looking for some Bible versus you can try http://www.biblegateway.com They allow you to search for keywords and provide multiple translations/versions. It is a great way to search for something in order to track its basis.

 

[Niels]

A month ago, a group of religious people from all over the world came to our city and also went to our school to discuss God with us and answer any questions we had. Some were from an important place in Rome actually, I think there were some very very religious people in the group.

Anyway I asked this very question, and though I can't remember his exact anwser anymore, one of them said that Hell wasn't fire and stuff like that at all. If God loves everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as fires and gnashing teeth waiting for you. You would go to a different place from heaven, but you wouldn't be punished.

Now, the bible was written in days where you would either be religious, or you wouldn't be, and in the last case you were murdered.
That is why I think the punishments described in the bible are heavily based on people's opinions back in the early years AC. But I still think the basic principal would be the same (if God exists at all), some people would go to heaven, and some to hell. And heaven would be a better place than hell. That's what I believe is more likely.



But that's just me being open minded cause I still am an atheist, and still believe there's a possibility God doesn't exist at all.

 

[FoolKiller]

A month ago, a group of religious people from all over the world came to our city and also went to our school to discuss God with us and answer any questions we had. Some were from an important place in Rome actually, I think there were some very very religious people in the group.

Anyway I asked this very question, and though I can't remember his exact anwser anymore, one of them said that Hell wasn't fire and stuff like that at all. If God loves everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as fires and gnashing teeth waiting for you. You would go to a different place from heaven, but you wouldn't be punished.

Now, the bible was written in days where you would either be religious, or you wouldn't be, and in the last case you were murdered.
That is why I think the punishments described in the bible are heavily based on people's opinions back in the early years AC. But I still think the basic principal would be the same (if God exists at all), some people would go to heaven, and some to hell. And heaven would be a better place than hell. That's what I believe is more likely.

Ah, the you are punished by not being near God theory. Of course if we were to take a spiritual point of view on that then being without the presence of God would be teh worst kind of Hell imaginable.

For example, assuming that we all have souls and our souls are fed by the presence of God, we are made at peace just by being able to be near him/her/it.

Now if you are given the opposite of that what do you have? Pure torment on a spiritual level which would be worse than we can fathom in our physical forms.

Those who aspouse this theory bother me in that it says it is really okay to be a sinner and you can never be so bad as to be punished for eternity because God loves you. By this rational I can just rape and murder and whatever I want and I will just be bored for eternity?

I have a feeling things don't work quite like that.

 

[Niels]

Those who aspouse this theory bother me in that it says it is really okay to be a sinner and you can never be so bad as to be punished for eternity because God loves you. By this rational I can just rape and murder and whatever I want and I will just be bored for eternity?

Just bored for eternity?
Look, lets assume you can only go to heaven if you believe in God right?
If I were to stay atheist I would end up in hell, so lets see, that would give me the same punishment as sinners that rape and murder all the time. Heck, I could even end up with the same punishment as Saddam Hoessein.
Now if I knew that this was true, that would certainly piss me off. I could as well go murder people now cause it doesn't really matter anymore anyway?
Should I be intimidated now, and just go believe in God under pressure for the possibility of hell?
I have a feeling things don't work quite like that. You call that rational?

I'll give you another spiritual view:
What if we would go through hell, burn the sin of our souls and just continue to heaven? Sin would be burned, and you would be all good to go to heaven again. It could be very painfull or something like that, but it sure would be a way to prevent sin from entering heaven right?

It bothers me that the people that say "God loves everyone", at the same time claim that anyone that doesn't believe in God should go to hell and burn forever. God won't force me into religion with that.

And just to clarify something, I wasn't the one that said it was "ok to be a sinner". I just said the punishment might not be as severe as every religious person wants it to be, and you all of a sudden change that to me saying "Hell will be ok"? I just said Heaven is better.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

Look, lets assume you can only go to heaven if you believe in God right?
If I were to stay atheist I would end up in hell, so lets see, that would give me the same punishment as sinners that rape and murder all the time. Heck, I could even end up with the same punishment as Saddam Hoessein.

To God all sin is the same. According to scripture God is perfect, therefore anything that is not perfect he cannot abide. People tend to put degrees to things so they can categorize them and deal with accordingly. To God all things have already been dealt with. If the way to heaven is not by deeds, then the way to hell is not by deeds, either. If you believe, then you are saved. If you do not believe, then you are not saved.

Also, as to whether Hell is in the Bible, (if I remember correctly,!?) Hell is mentioned more times than Heaven in scripture.

 

[Delirious]

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Read...all I am going to say...

Although you need to read the miner article and listen to the sound-file...quite creepy.

 

[FoolKiller]

Just bored for eternity?
Look, lets assume you can only go to heaven if you believe in God right?
If I were to stay atheist I would end up in hell, so lets see, that would give me the same punishment as sinners that rape and murder all the time. Heck, I could even end up with the same punishment as Saddam Hoessein.
Now if I knew that this was true, that would certainly piss me off. I could as well go murder people now cause it doesn't really matter anymore anyway?
Should I be intimidated now, and just go believe in God under pressure for the possibility of hell?
I have a feeling things don't work quite like that. You call that rational?

This is where I get fuzzzy on things. I have trouble accepting the idea of punishing an atheist that lives a life almost identical to a devout Christian, minus the belief and worship of God and Jesus, being punished the same a Hitler. You are right, it doesn't sound rational. The atheist is still a good man who led a good life and served the greater good.

That said I don't know that hell is an eternal burning, spiritual torture, or just being snuffed out of existence. If Hell is just the abscence of God then that does make sense. Your punishment is what you desired, to have no relationship with God.

I'll give you another spiritual view:
What if we would go through hell, burn the sin of our souls and just continue to heaven? Sin would be burned, and you would be all good to go to heaven again. It could be very painfull or something like that, but it sure would be a way to prevent sin from entering heaven right?

So a spiritual cleansing by fire, so to speak? Interesting point of view, and something that would not clash with my beliefs in any way.

It bothers me that the people that say "God loves everyone", at the same time claim that anyone that doesn't believe in God should go to hell and burn forever. God won't force me into religion with that.

First, you just lumped all Christians into one big hateful group with that statement. I don't think you intended it that way, but it is how it sounds.

Secondly, you've been listening to too many evangelcals. I have never given an atheist the "you're going to hell," speech. I have never given anyone that speech. That is not my place to decide. You will also note that Swift and Delirious have yet to give that speech.

Third, you are presuming to understand what the entity we call God would behave like, if you believed in its existence.

And just to clarify something, I wasn't the one that said it was "ok to be a sinner". I just said the punishment might not be as severe as every religious person wants it to be, and you all of a sudden change that to me saying "Hell will be ok"? I just said Heaven is better.

Please quote where I said you said anything.

My entire post was referring to the statement "You would go to a different place from heaven, but you wouldn't be punished." According to you this is what someone else said. My whole point is that I think this is an odd way to look at an afterlife because it seems very relaxed and as if to say sinning is okay and not following God's wishes is fine. You won't be punished, you just don't get invited to the party. As I have said twice now, one theory is that Hell is not being invited to the party.

And yes, not being in Heaven, but not being punished does sound like being bored for eternity. What are those turned away going to do, have a paper, rock, scissors tournament? The comment is a quick way for the guy you asked to avoid trying to explain Hell, probably because it is too complex to truly be understood.

 

[Niels]

This is where I get fuzzzy on things. I have trouble accepting the idea of punishing an atheist that lives a life almost identical to a devout Christian, minus the belief and worship of God and Jesus, being punished the same a Hitler. You are right, it doesn't sound rational. The atheist is still a good man who led a good life and served the greater good.
That said I don't know that hell is an eternal burning, spiritual torture, or just being snuffed out of existence. If Hell is just the abscence of God then that does make sense. Your punishment is what you desired, to have no relationship with God.

Now things get difficult...hmm...especially the last sentence. There's one part of me that prevents me from being religious. It's that part that tells me science could as well be right, and it all happened with a big bang and evolution and stuff.

It's an if situation: if God exists, and punishes me for not being religious, then that's because I had an open mind towards science as well, and never could've known previously who/what was right, science or religion.
If God does not exist, then I should just wait and see what happens to me after death. It could be possible that there is a scientific way of afterlife for example. I don't know.
This is a risk I take, to live a honest life with myself and just believe in what I think is true. If I would go "believe in God", then I would just do that to eliminate the risk of going to hell, instead of really believing in God.

First, you just lumped all Christians into one big hateful group with that statement. I don't think you intended it that way, but it is how it sounds.

No it's not what I intend to do, but I would intend it if someone would go compare me as evil as Hitler. But I'm sure you don't intend to do that either

Secondly, you've been listening to too many evangelcals. I have never given an atheist the "you're going to hell," speech. I have never given anyone that speech. That is not my place to decide. You will also note that Swift and Delirious have yet to give that speech.

Well you almost gave me the feel that I shouldn't take the bible spiritual. I have no quote to base that on though, it was just a feel that could be false.

Please quote where I said you said anything.

Here:

Those who aspouse this theory bother me in that it says it is really okay to be a sinner and you can never be so bad as to be punished for eternity because God loves you. By this rational I can just rape and murder and whatever I want and I will just be bored for eternity?

Cause honestly, I care more about how I would get punished compared to how murderers and rapists would be punished, as I have no interest nor compassion on what could happen to them after they die.

My entire post was referring to the statement "You would go to a different place from heaven, but you wouldn't be punished." According to you this is what someone else said.

Yeah but remember it's only another way of viewing at religion. I meant to show another way of looking at hell, just to add some perspective.

My whole point is that I think this is an odd way to look at an afterlife because it seems very relaxed and as if to say sinning is okay and not following God's wishes is fine. You won't be punished, you just don't get invited to the party. As I have said twice now, one theory is that Hell is not being invited to the party. And yes, not being in Heaven, but not being punished does sound like being bored for eternity. What are those turned away going to do, have a paper, rock, scissors tournament? The comment is a quick way for the guy you asked to avoid trying to explain Hell, probably because it is too complex to truly be understood.

You have a point that is odd, though it's just as odd as punishing me with Hell just like God would punish Hitler. This forces me to think that the bible is wrong, or not complete about Heaven and Hell(if it even exists), cause you can't just say "Religious people go to heaven and the rest may burn in hell".

To God all sin is the same. According to scripture God is perfect, therefore anything that is not perfect he cannot abide. People tend to put degrees to things so they can categorize them and deal with accordingly. To God all things have already been dealt with. If the way to heaven is not by deeds, then the way to hell is not by deeds, either. If you believe, then you are saved. If you do not believe, then you are not saved.

Speedy_Samurai, that is where you are completely wrong. Maybe to the bible all sin is the same. But you don't know if sin is all the same, to God himself. To me that's just guessing the personality of God, and guessing how he might respond and think about Sin and sinners.
The question is, do you believe a God exists, whatever God that might be? Cause you need to realise, there are several descriptions of God, and what kind of person he is. That seperates the Islam from Catholic for example.

This is to describe how I look at god at the moment (by the way it could be slightly different tomorow again, because everyone's comment here in the opinions forum makes me wiser and makes me adjust this following opinion).
I'm going to quote my own thoughts:

Do I believe in God? I don't know, you tell me.
I believe God can exist, does that count? I am still open minded enough for both science and religion, I believe in both you could say. So what? Is that sin? Would God blame me for simply not being able to know what to believe?
I have not chosen sides yet. With some religions it seems like God is just a very unfair person who doesn't seem to love the people at all, or just a very restricted group of people. Sure, that doesn't mean I don't believe that God couldn't exist, it means that if that is how God thinks and judges, I don't like him.
And, because I'm still at a very early stage in my life, I think I will have enough oportunities to find out what kind of religion does fit with me completely. And, if no religion doesn't seem to fit perfectly, I will come to the conclusion that I should follow my own religion, my church would be my own home, it's as simple as that.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

Speedy_Samurai, that is where you are completely wrong. Maybe to the bible all sin is the same. But you don't know if sin is the same, to God himself. To me that's just guessing the personality of God, and guessing how he might respond and think about Sin and sinners.
The question is, do you believe a God exists, whatever God that might? Cause you need to realise, there are several descriptions of God, and what kind of person he is. That seperates the Islam from Catholic for example.

I don't really understand your reasoning here. If I believe what the bible has to say about something then I have to believe that God acts the way the bible says he acts. To believe the Bible and its presentation of God, but not believe that God is what his book (the bible) describes him to be is just a big waste of time, more or less. It's also self-contradictory. Christianity gets its doctrine concerning the divinity of God from the bible. So do I believe the bible, but not the God of the bible?

 

[Niels]

I don't really understand your reasoning here. If I believe what the bible has to say about something then I have to believe that God acts the way the bible says he acts. To believe the Bible and its presentation of God, but not believe that God is what his book (the bible) describes him to be is just a big waste of time, more or less. It's also self-contradictory. Christianity gets its doctrine concerning the divinity of God from the bible. So do I believe the bible, but not the God of the bible?

No, it's not that complicated. You said "To God all sin is the same".
I'm saying that this is might not be true, cause this is just how the bible describes him to be like. In the times the bible was written, everyone was very unforgiving. If you didn't believe in any God or religion, you had to die in a very brutal way. So they "made" God appear like that too.
There's a very high chance, that God exists, but isn't like the person the bible describes he is, at all.
So don't say things like "To God all sin is the same" cause we simply don't know.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

No, it's not that complicated. You said "To God all sin is the same".
I'm saying that this is might not be true, cause this is just how the bible describes him to be like. In the times the bible was written, everyone was very unforgiving. If you didn't believe in any God or religion, you had to die in a very brutal way. So they "made" God appear like that too.
There's a very high chance, that God exists, but isn't like the person the bible describes he is, at all.
So don't say things like "To God all sin is the same" cause we simply don't know.

I see where you are coming from. However, you have just provided yourself a conundrum. If God exists, but what the bible (or other religious books) say about him is wrong, how do you know what to do to get in his 'good books'? Because you can't possibly know without some kind of instructions (which is what all religious texts are) you may as well not even try. Perhaps just living a good life will do be enough, yet what is a 'good life'?

I would also like to propose an idea to maybe explain a little. When we think of space we think of something that stretches for infinity. So our little planet, although quite real, and quite big to us, when compared to space becomes so small, it cannot really be measured, yet it is there, just like the other planets. If we think of infinity concerning time, it has no beginning or end, so the length of a life (70 years or so) would be so small it almost isn't relevant except that we know that time occured. [The Total Perspective Vortex contains the whole of the universe spread out before you, and compared to that, you are such a tiny speck that the knowledge of the inconsequentiality of your life will drive you insane]

God is perfect. His perfection is like space and time, it stretches on forever, sin compared to his perfection is so small that it cannot be measured. When you compare murder to theft, according to human morality, murder will always appear to be a greater evil than theft. Yet compared to God's perfection murder is so small as to be indistinguishable from any other sin. God's perfection is complete and as such cannot be blemished by sin. Theft, or rape, and even murder compared to each other are different, but when compared to the perfection of God are indistinguishable.

Sorry for the long post, and if it seems like I am preaching. To be honest with everyone, although I was raised in the church, I also have doubts concerning God and the great many things that pertain to him.

 

[Niels]

I see where you are coming from. However, you have just provided yourself a conundrum. If God exists, but what the bible (or other religious books) say about him is wrong, how do you know what to do to get in his 'good books'? Because you can't possibly know without some kind of instructions (which is what all religious texts are) you may as well not even try. Perhaps just living a good life will do be enough, yet what is a 'good life'?

I would also like to propose an idea to maybe explain a little. When we think of space we think of something that stretches for infinity. So our little planet, although quite real, and quite big to us, when compared to space becomes so small, it cannot really be measured, yet it is there, just like the other planets. If we think of infinity concerning time, it has no beginning or end, so the length of a life (70 years or so) would be so small it almost isn't relevant except that we know that time occured. [The Total Perspective Vortex contains the whole of the universe spread out before you, and compared to that, you are such a tiny speck that the knowledge of the inconsequentiality of your life will drive you insane]

God is perfect. His perfection is like space and time, it stretches on forever, sin compared to his perfection is so small that it cannot be measured. When you compare murder to theft, according to human morality, murder will always appear to be a greater evil than theft. Yet compared to God's perfection murder is so small as to be indistinguishable from any other sin. God's perfection is complete and as such cannot be blemished by sin. Theft, or rape, and even murder compared to each other are different, but when compared to the perfection of God are indistinguishable.

Sorry for the long post, and if it seems like I am preaching. To be honest with everyone, although I was raised in the church, I also have doubts concerning God and the great many things that pertain to him.

Well, he might just let us live our lives for whatever reason he has, and he might as well just continue running the universe. We always think that if a God exists, he would be watching over us, and watching who does what wrong and who does what right. We never think about the posibility that God has other stuff to do. You said that what the time we live is such a small piece compared to how long our universe has existed, maybe he doesn't even care at all how each individual lives their life.
All in all I can see where you are coming from too

 

[FoolKiller]

There's one part of me that prevents me from being religious. It's that part that tells me science could as well be right, and it all happened with a big bang and evolution and stuff.

The science argument never throws me off or causes me to stumble. I have no problem seeing Christianity and science coexisting. I do not march blindly forward thinking that the world is 6,000 years old.

It's an if situation: if God exists, and punishes me for not being religious, then that's because I had an open mind towards science as well, and never could've known previously who/what was right, science or religion.
If God does not exist, then I should just wait and see what happens to me after death. It could be possible that there is a scientific way of afterlife for example. I don't know.
This is a risk I take, to live a honest life with myself and just believe in what I think is true. If I would go "believe in God", then I would just do that to eliminate the risk of going to hell, instead of really believing in God.

I would never ask someone to become Christian as a way to hedge your bet. In reality you are still not a Christian because you don't truly believe it in your heart, you are just acting out the motions. It is a much bigger road than that and people must travel their own path to find their faith.

No it's not what I intend to do, but I would intend it if someone would go compare me as evil as Hitler. But I'm sure you don't intend to do that either

I was attempting to say the opposite actually. Most atheists are truly good people and I was saying that it does disturb me that Hell could be the same for them as it could be for those with true evil in their hearts. For this reason I try not to ponder what Hell may be because I cannot truly know and telling an atheist that is their fate is being dishonest to myself, my intelligence, and my faith.

Well you almost gave me the feel that I shouldn't take the bible spiritual. I have no quote to base that on though, it was just a feel that could be false.

That is a problem with that many Christians need to watch out for when debating religion, especially Hell, because without intending you can sound as if you are damning someone. Any Christian that thinks they can determine who does and doesn't go to Hell is being a zealot and they are egotistical enough to think they truly know the mind of God. The most I would ever do is fear that someone is going down a path that will lead them to Hell and pray that they find their way to faith.

Here:


Cause honestly, I care more about how I would get punished compared to how murderers and rapists would be punished, as I have no interest nor compassion on what could happen to them after they die.


Yeah but remember it's only another way of viewing at religion. I meant to show another way of looking at hell, just to add some perspective.

I understand it is another way of viewing religion, I was merely pointing out my problem with it. I feel that it is a dodge and it is something I see more and more of lately.

I think my biggest issue was that you asked him an honest answer about Hell and instead of giving you the multiple opinions given by Bible scholars and theologians he gave you his personal thought and left it there. When I had questions the preacher at my church would sit down with me and discuss the many beliefs on what things could be. He left it open for debate and questions so that I could come to my own conclussion.

You have a point that is odd, though it's just as odd as punishing me with Hell just like God would punish Hitler. This forces me to think that the bible is wrong, or not complete about Heaven and Hell(if it even exists), cause you can't just say "Religious people go to heaven and the rest may burn in hell".

Or it could be that the Bible is dead on and I have interpreted it wrong, but I classify these things in the "I won't know until I die" category. My biggest issue with organized religions is that they bicker over issues such as this even though they have no way to actually know. It bothers me that this goes on because I know people who are struggling spiritually and are looking for guidance who become turned away by this kind of pointless bickering.

Will it matter to their faith if they think one Hell is inclusive of everyone or if they think that there must be a separate form of Hell for each person, or any of the other possibilities discussed, including the "you just don't go to Heaven" explanation.

 

[OZZYGT]

If you believe, then you are saved. If you do not believe, then you are not saved.

AMEN!


Ciao...

 

[ledhed]

I see no literal mention of hell so far. Just mention of punishment by being cast out or denied the presence of God...there's talk of fire and brimstone but is it meant literally or is it figurative ? shouldnt there be a passage that just says plainly ... " you will go to hell " for this...or for not doing this ?

Hell? What does the Bible say?
(Click each sub-heading to expand and see its quotations.)

Many go there – Matthew 7:13 "... wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."



A place of torment – Luke 16:19-31 [probably the most vivid account] "The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades ... he cried and said 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'" (Luke 16:23-24. Look up the other verses of this story told by Jesus in the Bible.)



Everlasting punishment – Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



Everlasting fire – Matthew 25:41 "And then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"



Furnace of fire – Matthew 13:41, 50 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practise lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 13:41)

"The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 13:49-50)



Lake of fire – Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.



Fire and brimstone – Revelation 14:10 If anyone worships the beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.



Unquenchable fire – Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."



Devouring fire – Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"



Prepared for the devil – Matthew 25:41 "And then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"



Devils are confined there until the judgment day – 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment ...

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.



Punishment there is eternal – Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"



Human power cannot prevent us going there – Ezekiel 32:27 ... who have gone down to hell
with their weapons of war.



Body suffers there – Matthew 5:29, 10:28 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." (Matt 5:29)

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28)



Soul suffers there – Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."



Wise avoid it – Proverbs 15:24 The way of life winds upward for the wise,
That he may turn away from hell below.



Try to keep others from it – Proverbs 23:14, Jude 23 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell. (Prov 23:13-14)

But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire ... (Jude 23)



Associating with evil leads to it – Proverbs 5:5, 9:18 An immoral woman ... her feet go down to death,
Her steps lay hold of hell. (Prov 5:5)

But he [who turns aside to the shameless woman]
does not know that the dead are there,
That her guests are in the depths of hell. (Prov 9:18)



Devil and all his angels will be cast into it – Revelation 19:20, 20:10 The beast and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire, burning with brimstone. (Rev 19:20)

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)



Its powers cannot stand against the Church – Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."



All quotations from the Holy Bible, New King James Version, © 1982 Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Check them in your own Bible.

http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/hell.htm
http://www.biblestudents.net/studies/doctrine/biblehell.htm

Introduction

The original "Authorized Version" of the King James Bible contained the word "Hell" only 54 times from Genesis to Revelation. The New King James Bible contained the word "Hell" only 32 times and the American Standard and New American Standard (both revisions of the KJV) only 13 times.

There are literally scores of Bible translations which do NOT contain the word "Hell" even ONCE! What's going on? The answer is really obvious, except to those who insist on hanging onto "traditions of men." (Matt. 15:6-9) The scholarship of the Reformation period was just a few steps out of the Dark Ages.

The Bible translations from this era were simply bad from the point of view of today's understanding of the original languages of the Bible. Our greater understanding of the manners and customs of the peoples living during the Biblical period have also given us greater understanding of the meaning of many obscure passages of scriptures. Light is coming to what has been "traditionally" still in darkness.

Listed below are some reference books and articles which highlight one of the key doctrines which modern scholarship is shedding some incredible light upon...the subject of Hell and the doctrine of Everlasting Punishment. These works deal with the subjects of the Greek words behind our English word Hell, the concept of eternity in the Bible, the teachings of the early church on these subjects and the teaching of universalism, that is, the salvation of all mankind through Jesus Christ.

Some links are to brief articles. Others are to full and well-documented reference books. In addition, at the bottom of the page is a link to Bibles and concordances for the individual to do their own searches and also two links to Internet sites full of more books and articles on these most important subjects.

Truly the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth even as the waters cover the seas. Open your minds and hearts and let the Glory of God, our Father and Jesus Christ, His Son, shine upon you! The first few entries on this list deal with Hell and the Bible. The next few deal primarily with the mistranslation of the key words "olam," "aion," and "aionios," and a few other key Greek words followed by several works that show that the early believers closest to the original languages believed in the salvation of all mankind through Jesus Christ.

These works show/prove that this teaching is perfectly consistent with the original Greek and Hebrew AND more importantly with the nature of the God of the Bible.

http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellScholars.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=400


here is what I am finding...different versions of Christians seem more fixated on hell than heaven .
different versions of Christians accept the meaning of " Hell " in different ways .
And no one seems to have one version of the same Bible nor do they think its translated right . especially if they are from a different Christian " sect " .
There are a whole lot of different views on Christians by Christians and about them . In fact it seems a new bunch of Christians open up shop every few years .

I was looking for a really simple answer and opened up a big can of dammm worms...now I haave tons of stuff to sift through...

No wonder monks exist...


BTW...this passage comes close..

Its powers cannot stand against the Church – Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

And I can sort of use it to disprove a historical theory that hell was invented by men to make money .... I am using a short to the point honest english version of a theory that has the early clergy and The Roman emperor ( Constantine ) at the time colluding at a conference to decide what the BIBLE should include and how best to make it work for them politically .

Unless of course somehow Matthews words have been perverted ....but I would find it odd because almost all versions of the Bible I believe have him saying the same thing ( ? )

And it alludes to Peters sermons that have allegory evidence that predates thhe Bible itself . some of what Matthew says about Peter can be found in documents that exist ..although I have not seen them .." are said to exist " from the time of Peters travelling around stirring up stuff ..

 

[Swift]

I see no literal mention of hell so far. Just mention of punishment by being cast out or denied the presence of God...there's talk of fire and brimstone but is it meant literally or is it figurative ? shouldnt there be a passage that just says plainly ... " you will go to hell " for this...or for not doing this ?

Uh....what? The bible very plainly says the steps that you have to take to get to heaven. If you don't go to heaven, there is only one alternative.

But I think this passage may help a little. This is Jesus telling the story of Lazurus and the rich man.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[ledhed]

right Swift believe me I get all that..but you credibile arguments that " hell " is mistranslated etc. By theologions..and not just the ones that determine that the BIBLE is not to be taken literally in most cases. AND its an internal agrument amongst Christian scholars in a lot of cases..I will link tou to the papers they have written on the subject if you desire to be bored to death.

then again maybe thats your version of " hell " ...

 

[Delirious]

My Bible (KJV) tells me there are 54 times the word 'hell' is mentioned
15 of those times in the Gospel accounts
23 in the New Testament...

READ THE FOLLOWING!

". . . they dig into hell . . ." Amos 9:2
The following article appeared in the well respected Finland newspaper, Ammenusastia
"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!"

Dr. Azzacove continued, ". . .the drill suddenly began to rotate wildly, indicating that we had reached a large empty pocket or cavern. Temperature sensors showed a dramatic increase in heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit."

"We lowered a microphone, designed to detect the sounds of plate movements down the shaft. But instead of plate movements we heard a human voice screaming in pain! At first we thought the sound was coming from our own equipment."

"But when we made adjustments our worst suspicions were confirmed. The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!"

http://www.av1611.org/cgi-bin/media.cgi?dighell

 

[Swift]

right Swift believe me I get all that..but you credibile arguments that " hell " is mistranslated etc. By theologions..and not just the ones that determine that the BIBLE is not to be taken literally in most cases. AND its an internal agrument amongst Christian scholars in a lot of cases..I will link tou to the papers they have written on the subject if you desire to be bored to death.

then again maybe thats your version of " hell " ...

I get what you're saying. But, you asked to see where it specifically pointed to Hell in the bible. I showed you many instances and then you say they may not have been transmitted correctly.

The example of Lazurus and the rich man leaves zero room for interpretation. Lazurus was hanging with Abraham in heaven and the rich man was tormented by the heat of the flames of hell. I don't see anywhere else to go with that.

 

[FoolKiller]

I see no literal mention of hell so far. Just mention of punishment by being cast out or denied the presence of God...there's talk of fire and brimstone but is it meant literally or is it figurative ? shouldnt there be a passage that just says plainly ... " you will go to hell " for this...or for not doing this ?

The problem with what Hell is viewed as is that there are two different things mentioned in the Bible that people think of as Hell.

There are all the hits that you get if you were to search for Hell, which tend to most commonly bring about 54 hits. Sometimes you get less because the word Hades is used in its place.

Then there is the lake of fire which is mentioned in Revelations and is where everyone who doesn't get into Heaven gets tossed. What happens there is never mentioned. We are told they get thrown in and that's it. This one creates a major issue because it says that those who had gone before were brought forth from Hell/Hades and judged by their deeds in life.

I think some confusion can be cleared up if we consider that sometimes Hell is used to refer to the lake of fire but somewhere in translation the familiar term Hell/Hades was used.

So, Hell as we think of it is either the Hades/Hell that is constantly mentioned where "those that have gone before" are or it is the lake of fire. Either way the answer to your question is that yes, Hell is in the Bible. There are multiple mentions of people being cast into Hell and a lake of fire.


Of course another confusion is that Satan is cast into the abyss for 1,000 years in Revelations. What is this abyss? In the end however he gets tossed into the lake of fire too where he will apparently burn in torment forever.

...and they all lived happily ever after.