Is "If" still relevant to today's world?

[Mike Rotch]

I got into a bit of a debate with a guy at work today.

I had mentioned something about Rudyard Kipling's "If" and implied that is was a sage and timeless mantra to adhere to, to conduct oneself generally in life. This other guy was of the opinion that "If" was for wet blanket/ sissy types and had no relevance in todays 'day and age' and it is outmoded and old fashioned.

So what of it then? For those less read, "If" is quoted below:

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

 

[MatskiMonk]

Hmmm, my boss refers to this a lot, he has it memorised - and it irritates the hell out of me!

I don't disagree with the message, and I think it is still relevant, but delivering it in this format is unecessarily flowery and quite pretentious.

It bugs me when people read it and think it's some kind of revelation. It also bugs me when people think that just because they know it, they are that type of person, when actually they are not.

If I had to update it..

"Son, Work Hard, don't be a ****"

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm sure "If" is still highly relevant to many people, but there will always be those for whom it means considerably less.

Hmmm, my boss refers to this a lot, he has it memorised

Same here (well, my previous boss anyway).

It also bugs me when people think that just because they know it, they are that type of person, when actually they are not.

I'm sure this applies to alot of people too, though not everyone of course. However, the fact that both our bosses took such pride in being able to recite it (well, some of it anyway) is probably not a coincidence

As for Kipling in general, he does write exceedingly good poems.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Thought I'd take a quick shot at this, maybe a little more relevant:

If you are high enough within the company,
To apportion blame, and not have to accept it;
If you get to discount the opinions of lower ranked employees within your department,
And not explain why;
If you don’t have time to wait, but have time for ‘working lunch’,
Or lie, but issue written warnings to liars,
Or hate, from behind the shield of company policy,
And still wear £800 suits, and use marketing buzzwords:

If you can dream – and use company profits to fund them;
If you can think – and use company profits support them;
If you can meet with Customers and Suppliers
And treat those two imposters the same;
If you can deny ‘truths’ you’ve spoken,
Even when minuted by your secretary,
Or watch things you gave your life to, taxed heavily by the government,
And decide that you need an 7 series, A8 or S-Class, in order to carry on:

If you can make a profit from your turnover
And disguise it from Her Majestys Revenue and Customs,
Show only tax avoidance, not tax evasion,
And get away with it, scot free;
If you can take 6 weeks holiday a year,
Or two, at a days notice,
And still convince people that you are a workaholic,
Comforted only by your Expense account:

If you can pretend to like people that you do not,
If you can use the executive bathroom, and have your own parking space,
If neither employee’s or employer’s can see you Facebook,
If your attendance record is high, and Bradford factor low;
If you can fill the unforgiving day, With Seven and a half hours of work,
including being late because of the school run, and a healthy working lunch,
Then yours is a company pension, gym membership and private healthcare,
And – which is more – you’ll be management, my son!

 

[Vegard]

In my opinion this poem is as relevant today, if not more so, than it was 100 years ago.

 

[Famine]

I don't really think it was ever relevant - largely because of the last two lines.

Defining "a man" as patient is no more accurate than defining it as "non-vegetarian US domestic car owner". Even extending the meaning to "a member of the human species" (he does use a capital M), it doesn't define all the most admirable human qualities (inquisitiveness and reasoning amongst them). And if you look at some of the no-marks who actually possess the planet and everything in it, they certainly don't hit any of the marks.

Nice sentiments though. Good to aspire to.

 

[photonrider]

Yes, Mike, the message is still relevant. Maybe the delivery is somewhat outdated.
May be more palatable to today's masses if put into mutilated Doge haiku.

 

[wfooshee]

Too cerebral for me. I was looking for music by Bread...... Which is still relevant, apparently, still played at every high school homecoming halftime show in the country!

 

[Danoff]

Meh,

First I've seen of it. Some of it is good, some of it is not, some of it is contradictory, and it leaves out a few things. I'm with @Famine on the last two lines.

From what I've seen of success, a lot of it has nothing to do with those sentiments. I was fed a lot of that kind of thing when I was young, and now that I've seen successful people firsthand I know that in many cases those sentiments are wrong.

Here's something almost nobody (including myself) on this website wants to hear. Want to be successful? Make sure you keep track of and make friends with every single person you meet. Make sure that you keep in mind how these people can be useful to you at all times. Make sure they like you, be charming, be memorable but not offensive, make sure you mix social and work life at all times, and learn how to sell people on ideas.

I've seen people with networking skills in spades and none of the qualities in the OP poem who are absolutely insanely wealthy because of it. In fact, almost everyone I have ever met who is insanely wealthy (and I have met my share) are networkers. Turns out being popular in high school is actually important.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Meh,

First I've seen of it. Some of it is good, some of it is not, some of it is contradictory, and it leaves out a few things. I'm with @Famine on the last two lines.

From what I've seen of success, a lot of it has nothing to do with those sentiments. I was fed a lot of that kind of thing when I was young, and now that I've seen successful people firsthand I know that in many cases those sentiments are wrong.

Here's something almost nobody (including myself) on this website wants to hear. Want to be successful? Make sure you keep track of and make friends with every single person you meet. Make sure that you keep in mind how these people can be useful to you at all times. Make sure they like you, be charming, be memorable but not offensive, make sure you mix social and work life at all times, and learn how to sell people on ideas.

I've seen people with networking skills in spades and none of the qualities in the OP poem who are absolutely insanely wealthy because of it. In fact, almost everyone I have ever met who is insanely wealthy (and I have met my share) are networkers. Turns out being popular in high school is actually important.

Not everyone measures success in terms of monetary wealth.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Not everyone measures success in terms of monetary wealth.

I'd say success can be quite subjective.

 

[Villain]

Not everyone measures success in terms of monetary wealth.

Well, that depends on what you're trying to succeed in, doesn't it?

 

[Mike Rotch]

Well, that depends on what you're trying to succeed in, doesn't it?

True - some people may view the above as entirely incompatible with wealth creation in a corporate sense (as Danoff points out) whereas it may be compatible with success in terms of trying to demonstrate a self-sufficiency and a divorce from ego, which is I read the poem to be trying to get at. But only if that is how one personally measures success.

 

[Danoff]

Not everyone measures success in terms of monetary wealth.

Just substitute "financial success" for "success" in my previous post.

 

[Villain]

True - some people may view the above as entirely incompatible with wealth creation in a corporate sense (as Danoff points out) whereas it may be compatible with success in terms of trying to demonstrate a self-sufficiency and a divorce from ego, which is I read the poem to be trying to get at. But only if that is how one personally measures success.

Agree completely, that was the message that I came away with as well.

The first example that came to mind for me is medicine. Maybe the hospital administrators are trying to run a business, but when you have salaried physicians (especially the big time surgeons) and the like, money is no longer a personal concern for them. I'm sure these individuals are measuring success by the rate of successful procedures and lives saved. Of course there are egomaniacs out there (hence the point of the poem), but I can think of a handful of physicians I know personally who couldn't care less about how rich they are. Their personal success is measured by how many lives they can heal.

Same goes for a lot of the higher paid nurses. ICU nurses in general, and NICU (intensive care unit for infants) nurses in specific are a different breed - they don't show up to work thinking about how well they are getting paid. Those nurses will chew you up and spit you out if you do anything to even remotely endanger their fragile patients (for example, not washing your hands well enough during that three-minute aseptic scrub down before entering NICU). NICU nurses are extremely protective of their patients, and from talking to ICU nurses you'd think they spend all day only treating their patient's families. Intensive Care nurses are among the most personally involved with their very sick patients, and if one has the qualifications for those positions then they are most likely choosing it because they genuinely love what they do.

 

[Danoff]

it may be compatible with success in terms of trying to demonstrate a self-sufficiency and a divorce from ego, which is I read the poem to be trying to get at. But only if that is how one personally measures success.

Agree completely, that was the message that I came away with as well.

It comes down to the last two lines. You guys are focusing on the intent of the last one I think, whereas the 2nd to last one is what I'm talking about.

I also really don't share everyone's hatred of ego and pride. Much of what Villain just spoke glowingly about is pride.

 

[Villain]

Much of what Villain just spoke glowingly about is pride.

Career choice is to save lives ----> Show up to work and save lives ----> Success. That's what I'm thinking, at least.

I'm not sure where pride is fitting in, will you elaborate for me?

FTR - That's a genuine question. I tend to be more of a logical thinker than a philosophical thinker, so I appreciate any way you can break it down for me.

 

[Danoff]

Career choice is to save lives ----> Show up to work and save lives ----> Success. That's what I'm thinking, at least.

I'm not sure where pride is fitting in, will you elaborate for me?

FTR - That's a genuine question. I tend to be more of a logical thinker than a philosophical thinker, so I appreciate any way you can break it down for me.

It's not altruism that motivates these people, they take personal pride in saving lives. Their satisfaction comes from being excellent at savings lives.

 

[Villain]

It's not altruism that motivates these people, they take personal pride in saving lives. Their satisfaction comes from being excellent at savings lives.

Hm. The specific people who I was thinking about when I made my post definitely fit the altruistic category. I can think of a few others who are in the personal pride category as well.

 

[Danoff]

@Villain

I don't think truly altruistic people exist.

 

[Keef]

They don't. It's not human nature. And if they do, or did, they probably will or have gone insane, their dogma and natural tendencies constantly at war.

I don't want to be an airline pilot because I care about the service I'm providing. I'm not passionate about getting people to their destination on time. But I do think flying is sweet, I know I'm good at it, I intend to get better at it, and I don't believe their are many people in the world who can mix the science and skill of flying with the responsibility of being in charge of hundreds of lives besides your own. That's a heavy burden and the idea scares many people - it doesn't bother me, I just want to get my own ass back down in one piece. I've rather impressed myself with what I know and can do and I plan to continue impressing. If I ever find myself standing in a hospital staircase with a drug addict and a cancer patient and if they ask if I was the pilot I'll look at them and say "Yes". Why would I want people to know if I wasn't proud of what I'd done?

 

[Villain]

@Villain

I don't think truly altruistic people exist.

That's an interesting notion that I haven't given much thought to.

I like to try to speak in "I" statements when talking about the tendencies of people rather than generalizing (if I can). With that said, I'm not truly altruistic and personal pride plays a massive role in my life.

 

[Vegard]

It's not human nature.

There are plenty of altruistic tendencies in the animal world and it is likely that humans also possessed altruistic qualities, by far exceeding those that are posessed by the human "family" today, in the past.
But I'd agree with you that in general the average altruistic "rating" for humans is pretty low at the moment, and probably declining.

If I ever find myself standing in a hospital staircase with a drug addict and a cancer patient and if they ask if I was the pilot I'll look at them and say "Yes".

Even if you had a nasty hangover and;

 

[Keef]

That's what lawyers are for! @Vegard

 

[Danoff]

There are plenty of altruistic tendencies in the animal world and it is likely that humans also possessed altruistic qualities, by far exceeding those that are posessed by the human "family" today, in the past.
But I'd agree with you that in general the average altruistic "rating" for humans is pretty low at the moment, and probably declining.

I doubt anyone goes through life without having an altruistic moment, and there are certainly people who have sacrificed their lives for others. I didn't say humans were incapable of altruistic acts. I said I don't think truly altruistic people exist.

 

[Danoff]

Getting back to the poem some more, I should elaborate with an example.

At a law firm, everyone who calls themselves an attorney makes 6 figures. If you're good at what you do, technically sharp, and diligent, you get raises and bonuses and you stay in the lower 6 figure range. The people who make 7 figures are these who feed the work to the folks making 6 figures. These 7 figure folks don't do much technical work, in fact most of them have forgotten how. They aren't all that diligent, and they aren't all that sharp. All they do is keep everyone at the firm employed with plenty of work to keep doing - and they are compensated for it in a big way.

And that's how it has to be. That model doesn't exist out of chance or unfairness, that model exists because the thing you want the most motivation to do is to make it rain - bring in the clients who have work to do. Doesn't matter how good you are at your job, if someone else is getting the work because they market themselves better, you're doing nothing.

That poem doesn't strike me as a guide to networking, it strikes me as a call to determination and humility. Determination being an important characteristic, humility less so, and some other key attributes are left off.

 

[Keef]

And many times humbleness is not something that will help advance your career, especially in a corporate world. When you meet the guy who will decide how much you get paid you need to let him know who you are, what you do, and why you're better than the others and you need to do it in the time it takes to ride an elevator to his top-floor office. Self-promotion isn't humble but is often necessary if you want to advance.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Getting back to the poem some more, I should elaborate with an example.

At a law firm, everyone who calls themselves an attorney makes 6 figures. If you're good at what you do, technically sharp, and diligent, you get raises and bonuses and you stay in the lower 6 figure range. The people who make 7 figures are these who feed the work to the folks making 6 figures. These 7 figure folks don't do much technical work, in fact most of them have forgotten how. They aren't all that diligent, and they aren't all that sharp. All they do is keep everyone at the firm employed with plenty of work to keep doing - and they are compensated for it in a big way.

And that's how it has to be. That model doesn't exist out of chance or unfairness, that model exists because the thing you want the most motivation to do is to make it rain - bring in the clients who have work to do. Doesn't matter how good you are at your job, if someone else is getting the work because they market themselves better, you're doing nothing.

That poem doesn't strike me as a guide to networking, it strikes me as a call to determination and humility. Determination being an important characteristic, humility less so, and some other key attributes are left off.

Again I'll add the same thing. You're right, the model doesn't exist out of chance or unfairness, it exists because it's the way to make the most money for the most people. And if that's how you measure your personal success then again you're right, it doesn't matter how good you are at your job if someone else is getting the work because they market themselves better. Not everyone measures their success in terms of money.

 

[niky]

I said I don't think truly altruistic people exist.

I suppose that depends on how high you set the bar... obviously absolutes are very improbable. But there are people who actually do believe that prioritizing the welfare of others without seeking recognition is what makes them happy. Whatever emotional/mental/chemical process is responsible for that doesn't change the experience.

 

[Joel]

I suppose that depends on how high you set the bar... obviously absolutes are very improbable. But there are people who actually do believe that prioritizing the welfare of others without seeking recognition is what makes them happy. Whatever emotional/mental/chemical process is responsible for that doesn't change the experience.

What I got out of his post is that being truly altruistic means you'd do it entirely for the benefit of others and for no other reason. The reality is a part of what motivates people to do charity work is the feeling you get from helping others, which is its own personal benefit. It's not so much about recognition as a perceived benefit IMO.