Is this a new kind of racing game?

[DodgySyrup]

What I mean is, I'm trying very hard to think of a racing game designed in such a way as regards microtransactions.

Now, I know i-racing has a particular type of business model, but it isn't like GT 7.
Assetto Corsa, Project Cars, R-Factor, all have DLC but none have the kind of cynical in game economy GT 7 does.

Think about it like this, GT 7 cost me £69.99, I also had to renew my ps plus so I could race online which was another £16 as it makes sense to buy 12 months...anyway...that's £86.

That alone, is a lot for a gaming experience.

Then we have the economy of the game itself which has been built from the ground up to drive players towards microtransactions in the playstation store.
As if the release version wasn't frugal enough with its reward payout, and the prices of vehicles weren't high enough, we now see that credit rewards have been reduced by as much as 25% in a lot of cases.

I believe they looked at the data and realised that people weren't buying credits because they were grinding Fisherman and so they've cynically reduced its payout.
Has there ever been a racing game, much less a GT game, that has been designed from the ground up with this amount of greed and cynicism?
The idea is to squeeze the player, to frustrate, to annoy, to the point we feel like we have to buy credits.

Even if it's just once, or a couple of times.

Personally, I can't remember a racing game ever doing this.

CoD, BF, shooters in general?

Yes.

Fortnite?

Of course.

MMOs, RPGs, action games?

Absolutely.

But, driving games?

No, I don't think so.

My point being that this game was built from the ground up to sell microtransactions, which, when you consider what we've already spent, and that this isn't what we expect from GT, or racing games in general, leaves a bitter taste.

Oh, and we are now 24hrs without access to that game we've spent all that money on.

What went wrong, PD?

Do we solely put the blame on Sony?

Do we refuse to buy credits no matter how much the grind gets to us?

 

[incredirog]

Fortnite is a bad example as it’s free and any money spent is for cosmetic only items so no performance advantage

 

[NICKname]

I don't think this is a new kind of racing game. It's a dinosaur's last cash grab. They could've easily put in some serious effort and made a game that sells over 10 million copies and even has the fans constantly buying paid DLC (the fundamentals were great and people were extremely hyped), but instead they made review bait, hyped it up a bit, and then tanked the in game economy to make some easy money. I wouldn't be surprised if the next move is to pull the plug.

They couldn't even be bothered to make the career mode last half as long as GT Sport.

If there ever will be a GT8, it'll be even worse.

 

[splitwindow]

GT7 the real life simulator, where you grind and grind but still can't afford all the really nice cars you want.

 

[DodgySyrup]

I don't think this is a new kind of racing game. It's a dinosaur's last cash grab. They could've easily put in some serious effort and made a game that sells over 10 million copies and even has the fans constantly buying paid DLC (the fundamentals were great and people were extremely hyped), but instead they made review bait, hyped it up a bit, and then tanked the in game economy to make some easy money. I wouldn't be surprised if the next move is to pull the plug.

They couldn't even be bothered to make the career mode last half as long as GT Sport.

If there ever will be a GT8, it'll be even worse.

I meant we haven't really seen a console racing game with this amount of baked in monetisation.

 

[DodgySyrup]

The more I think about it the more I despise the cynical way this game has gone about its economy.

 

[CMB350]

I don't think this is a new kind of racing game. It's a dinosaur's last cash grab. They could've easily put in some serious effort and made a game that sells over 10 million copies and even has the fans constantly buying paid DLC (the fundamentals were great and people were extremely hyped), but instead they made review bait, hyped it up a bit, and then tanked the in game economy to make some easy money. I wouldn't be surprised if the next move is to pull the plug.

Sadly, I have the same thoughts. They'll end up selling to EA or something and the game will stray even further from it's roots.

 

[GXPTG]

I know the economy of GT7 is under fire, and I suppose in a way it's rightfully so. However what I keep thinking back to is real life racing. Now, I do not actually race real cars, only spectate, but what do drivers make for winning actual races? I'm not sure how true it is, but looking up the winnings for driving and overall winning the 24 Hours of LeMans... 40,000 Euros. if that is accurate (and I know this opens up a giant can of worms) then in a way Gran Turismo 7 is generous.

Sure a driver doesn't need to buy the car, tires, parts, etc... game versus real life and everything, I know, but still just trying to put some perspective on it.

 

[MrMattAdz]

I meant we haven't really seen a console racing game with this amount of baked in monetisation.

Forza 5 came out 7 years ago.

In fact didn't you have to pay to unlock the DLC cars, and then grind/pay for the credits to add them to your garage?

 

[Scaff]

Sadly, I have the same thoughts. They'll end up selling to EA or something and the game will stray even further from it's roots.

PD is wholly owned by Sony, Sony would shutter a studio and an IP before selling it to anyone.

I know the economy of GT7 is under fire, and I suppose in a way it's rightfully so. However what I keep thinking back to is real life racing. Now, I do not actually race real cars, only spectate, but what do drivers make for winning actual races? I'm not sure how true it is, but looking up the winnings for driving and overall winning the 24 Hours of LeMans... 40,000 Euros. if that is accurate (and I know this opens up a giant can of worms) then in a way Gran Turismo 7 is generous.

Sure a driver doesn't need to buy the car, tires, parts, etc... game versus real life and everything, I know, but still just trying to put some perspective on it.

As the amount you just refenced is just the prize money and doesn't cover salary, sponsorship earnings, etc. its not really comparable, but if that's your bag then this is the game for you

Motorsport Manager

www.motorsportmanager.com

 

[GXPTG]

As the amount you just refenced is likely just the prize money and doesn't cover salary, sponsorship earnings, etc. its not really comparable, but if that's your bag then this is the game for you

I hear you, truly I do, and I agree. My point for bringing it up was merely a driver's prize winnings for a single race.

 

[DodgySyrup]

Forza 5 came out 7 years ago.

In fact didn't you have to pay to unlock the DLC cars, and then grind/pay for the credits to add them to your garage?

This is my take on GT7.

You can't earn enough credits playing through the conventional single player campaign to buy all the cars...or, at the very least, the best cars.

There simply aren't enough credits on offer.

Let's say you want to get the two Red Bulls, the old school f1 car, some gr.3 and gr.4, a few vision concepts, a few tuning focused racers etc...

That's a reasonable selection of the most enjoyable and the fastest cars - cars that you will probably need to be competitive, whether that's in the most challenging A.I races or against other players in daily races and conventional multiplayer.
Conservatively, that's upwards of 10 million credits...and that's doesn't include adding various tuning options and tyres, not to mention any paint jobs and the like.

With that, let's say another couple of million across all those cars.

That's 12 million credits, give or take.

Well, how exactly do we get those credits?

Well, we can't earn them playing through the cafe system and other single player offerings as there simply aren't enough on offer... even with roulette pay outs (another joke).
So, we have to find the most profitable races, aka Fisherman's, and race them over and over and over...and over...and over...again and again and again...and again...to earn those credits.

Oh, except they've now reduced the payout of that event by around 20+%, so that's giving you even less credits.
That leaves us in a completely artificial, redundant loop, where we repeat the same event(s) over and over to try and earn enough money to buy those vehicles we want.

How, in any way shape or form, is that an enjoyable experience?

It's not like you can even say it's bad game design because it's deliberately coded into the games architecture.

It's a knowing and cynical tactic, and is designed to do one thing...push us towards microtransactions out of frustration.

That's it.

It is coded into the DNA of this game.

Personally, it leaves a bad taste in my life.

These companies, obviously, see us as useful idiots to be used.

We all know that.

But, to see it done in such an egregious manner is incredibly offputting.

 

[MrMattAdz]

This is my take on GT7.

You can't earn enough credits playing through the conventional single player campaign to buy all the cars...or, at the very least, the best cars.

There simply aren't enough credits on offer.

Let's say you want to get the two Red Bulls, the old school f1 car, some gr.3 and gr.4, a few vision concepts.

That's a reasonable selection of the most enjoyable and the fastest cars - cars that you will probably need to be competitive, whether that's in the most challenging A.I races or against other players in daily races and conventional multiplayer.
Conservatively, that's upwards of 10 million credits...and that's doesn't include adding various tuning options.

With that, let's say another couple of million across all those cars.

12 million credits.

How do we get those credits?

Well, we can't earn them playing through the cafe system and other single player offerings.
So, we have to find the most profitable races aka Fisherman's and race them over and over and over...and over...and over...again and again and again...and again.

Oh, except they've now reduced the payout of that event by around 20+%, so that's giving you even less credits.
That leaves us in a completely artificial, redundant loop, where we repeat the same event(s) over and over to earn money to buy vehicles.

How, in any way shape or form, is that an enjoyable experience?

It's not like you can even say it's bad game design because it's deliberate.

It's deliberate and cynical, and is designed to do one thing...push us towards microtransactions out of frustration.

That's it.

It is coded into the DNA of this game.

Personally, it leaves a bad taste in my life.

These companies, obviously, see us as useful idiots to be used.

We all know that.

But, to see it done in such an egregious manner is incredibly off putting.

lol not to be rude but what did this have to do with my post?

Yeah it's scummy for sure but we've seen this exact model, if not worse because of how DLC was handled, in Forza 5. Saying that PD have revolutionised the MTX model in racing games is giving them too much credit here.

 

[Gt79]

Well in Forzas defense you pay 100$ or whatever you get it all, here you pay same amount and get some steel ook and avatars yippee

 

[danjama]

I absolutely agree with you. My major gripe is that I would not have given them my money IF THEY WERE TRANSPARENT about their microtransaction strategy. I avoid all games with them, and would have ignored GT7 too.

 

[KBart]

I absolutely agree with you. My major gripe is that I would not have given them my money IF THEY WERE TRANSPARENT about their microtransaction strategy. I avoid all games with them, and would have ignored GT7 too.

Excactly the point that annoys me extremly as I never supported MTX and never will.

But if a developer insists on integrating them, I can choose with my wallet not to support them by not buying the game.

I didn't prepurchase GT7 but instead bought a physical copy, after I read some positive reviews.
As they (the reviwers) didn't encouter MTX they obiviously didn't mention nor critisize them - It's just a ****ing horrendous shady business-tactic from PD/Sony.

 

[DodgySyrup]

lol not to be rude but what did this have to do with my post?

Yeah it's scummy for sure but we've seen this exact model, if not worse because of how DLC was handled, in Forza 5. Saying that PD have revolutionised the MTX model in racing games is giving them too much credit here.

You were basically saying this isn't anything new, that Forza 5 came out 7 years ago and it was doing it.

My assertion is that no other racing game has gone about it in the way GT7 has.

I mean, reducing the pay outs on races, like they did yesterday, is pure greed in its most obvious form.

It was motivated solely by greed and, as much as this is a business etc...it is unseemly and doesn't engender goodwill towards the game and its developers...even though they aren't likely to be directly responsible.

I know what you mean when you say they didn't revolutionise MTXs in racing games.

For me, it's more the particular way they've gone about it.

 

[danjama]

Excactly the point that annoys me extremly as I never supported MTX and never will.

But if a developer insists on integrating them, I can choose with my wallet not to support them by not buying the game.

I didn't prepurchase GT7 but instead bought a physical copy, after I read some positive reviews.
As they (the reviwers) didn't encouter MTX they obiviously didn't mention nor critisize them - It's just a ****ing horrendous shady business-tactic from PD/Sony.

Exactly. I am even more annoyed because I originally ordered a physical copy on amazon, but it was delayed so i cancelled and bought digital instead. So can't even get a refund.

 

[MrMattAdz]

You were basically saying this isn't anything new, that Forza 5 came out 7 years ago and it was doing it.

My assertion is that no other racing game has gone about it in the way GT7 has.

I mean, reducing the pay outs on races, like they did yesterday, is pure greed in its most obvious form.

It was motivated solely by greed and, as much as this is a business etc...it is unseemly and doesn't engender goodwill towards the game and its developers...even though they aren't likely to be directly responsible.

I know what you mean when you say they didn't revolutionise MTXs in racing games.

For me, it's more the particular way they've gone about it.

I mean your question is literally "is this a new kind of racing game?". For me the answer is no, they've scaled it up but there is nothing original or new about this model MTX model, even if you take MTXs away we have seen these features before in Gran Turismo.

I'm not saying I liked the model in that game, but Gran Turismo PSP was worse than this. Once you completed the license tests the quickest way to grind money was to keep repeating custom races on this giant oval test track, which took 5 minutes to earn 150,000 credits. This was not a fast method of making money relative to the prices of some of the cars, if I remember right the Ferrari F1 car cost 8,000,000 for example so that's 250 minutes of oval racing. And get this, you know how everyone is complaining about cars being on rotation and not being available 24/7? That was in Gran Turismo PSP, except it was for every single car in the game.

I think PD have a lot to prove now after reducing payouts, especially after Kaz's request to give them time to improve the way we make credits in a way that avoids grinding for cars. But there is so much hyperbole around the MTXs and the credit model in this game. If this was almost any other publisher I'd have a harder time believing it, but when Kax publicly addresses the situation and asks for time so improve the situation via a solution that isn't just a flat increase in payouts, I personally am willing to give them that time. Kaz is successful enough, and more importantly, unconventional enough in his design philosophy that I can fully believe that if you took away the MTXs, the game's credit model would be designed in exactly the same way.

I'm not going to try and convince anyone else not to refund the game if they aren't having fun, it sounds like PD's intention is for this to be a game catered towards players who are going to still be playing in the long term, and if that doesn't suit you (which is completely fair enough), then refunding the game is a totally fair decision to make.

 

[DodgySyrup]

I mean your question is literally "is this a new kind of racing game?". For me the answer is no, they've scaled it up but there is nothing original or new about this model MTX model, even if you take MTXs away we have seen these features before in Gran Turismo.

I'm not saying I liked the model in that game, but Gran Turismo PSP was worse than this. Once you completed the license tests the quickest way to grind money was to keep repeating custom races on this giant oval test track, which took 5 minutes to earn 150,000 credits. This was not a fast method of making money relative to the prices of some of the cars, if I remember right the Ferrari F1 car cost 8,000,000 for example so that's 250 minutes of oval racing. And get this, you know how everyone is complaining about cars being on rotation and not being available 24/7? That was in Gran Turismo PSP, except it was for every single car in the game.

I think PD have a lot to prove now after reducing payouts, especially after Kaz's request to give them time to improve the way we make credits in a way that avoids grinding for cars. But there is so much hyperbole around the MTXs and the credit model in this game. If this was almost any other publisher I'd have a harder time believing it, but when Kax publicly addresses the situation and asks for time so improve the situation via a solution that isn't just a flat increase in payouts, I personally am willing to give them that time. Kaz is successful enough, and more importantly, unconventional enough in his design philosophy that I can fully believe that if you took away the MTXs, the game's credit model would be designed in exactly the same way.

I'm not going to try and convince anyone else not to refund the game if they aren't having fun, it sounds like PD's intention is for this to be a game catered towards players who are going to still be playing in the long term, and if that doesn't suit you (which is completely fair enough), then refunding the game is a totally fair decision to make.

I agree that I didn't word the title that well, but I don't agree that this type of in game economy and the deliberate way it is used to try and frustrate players and drive them towards MTXs is something we've seen before .

Remember, I'm not talking about DLC this is specifically regarding the way quality of in game rewards are being manipulated to coerce players into spending extra money.

However, I am happy to admit I'm wrong if there other examples of games doing the exact same thing.

 

[MrMattAdz]

I agree that I didn't word the title that well, but I don't agree that this type of in game economy and the deliberate way it is used to try and frustrate players and drive then towards MTXs is something we've seen before.

Remember, I'm not talking about DLC this is specifically regarding the way quality of in game rewards are being manipulated to coerce players into spending extra money.

Right. But Gran Turismo has had a similar model before in a game that didn't have MTXs.

You're also ignoring the fact that Kaz has said today that he is aware of complaints about the current model, and that they have plans to bring bring new features and events that will hopefully resolve complaints about the credit model without resorting to players being encouraged to keep playing the same event over and over again.

Maybe you're familiar with that southpark meme where one character says to the other "It's finally over, what do we do now?"
"What do you mean? Now we can finally play the game."

Players are always going to follow the route of least resistance. I mean, there's no real incentive at the moment to collect as many cars as possible seeing how little relevant content there is for most of them, so the fact that people are already grinding away for cars, is problematic if you're trying to create a game that encourages players to stick around for longer. What happens when you buy all the cars in the game? Nothing right? Do you have any additional incentive now to keep playing? Outside of Sport mode, not really. So what's the point in grinding races already? What's the point in buying MTXs when you'd have to spend thousands to get even close to unlocking everything. And that's the thing, every time I see someone say that the new credit model is obviously there to promote players to buying MTXs, they never mention the fact that MTXs are now prohibitively expensive and less appealing than ever. It's a complete contradiction.

A lot of people see the design decisions in this game and interpret them to mean that PD is trying to make the average player spend hundreds in MTXs. I personally interpret them as trying to get players to stick around and play more regularly throughout the games life. Legend cars for example, a lot of people think that's trying to inspire FOMO to get players to spend money. Which first of all, is a bit short sighted as the cars are on rotation and are going to come back around in a month or whatever. And secondly, is very similar to something like Xur in Destiny. Which was a mechanic that encouraged players to check in every week and to play the game if they saw something they wanted to collect. It's even similar to the Mileage exchange in GT Sport, which contained cars exclusive to that store front and required you to regularly play the game if you wanted to collect everything you wanted in there.

So yeah, that's how I see things. Even if you're willing to spend thousands you still can't buy every car in the game right now because some of them haven't even become available yet. So for me personally when you say that basically every decision in the game is there to get people to buy MTXs, I think that's short sighted and that there's no evidence that this model is going to harm the long term health of this game. If someone feels that they have to spend hundreds of dollars or hours grinding to unlock everything in the game now, then to be honest I think that's kind of their problem. Especially as there is no genuine reason to do so.

I don't think the game is perfect and I have to say that I'm disappointed with the lack of single player content there is right now, but I don't see any problem with it taking someone ages to unlock every car in the game. I know someone will say that "but that's the point of the game, you're supposed to collect everything", well, are you? I see it more as the player should collect, drive, tune, and race the cars that they personally want to do that with. There is no reason to buy every car in the game other than for the sake of it.

 

[ruggermole]

I don't think this is a new kind of racing game. It's a dinosaur's last cash grab. They could've easily put in some serious effort and made a game that sells over 10 million copies and even has the fans constantly buying paid DLC (the fundamentals were great and people were extremely hyped), but instead they made review bait, hyped it up a bit, and then tanked the in game economy to make some easy money. I wouldn't be surprised if the next move is to pull the plug.

They couldn't even be bothered to make the career mode last half as long as GT Sport.

If there ever will be a GT8, it'll be even worse.

a really good point; they good have made a solid game and then sold DLC twice a year or so and people would have gone along with hit. Now they have just pissed everybody off.

 

[DodgySyrup]

Right. But Gran Turismo has had a similar model before in a game that didn't have MTXs.

You're also ignoring the fact that Kaz has said today that he is aware of complaints about the current model, and that they have plans to bring bring new features and events that will hopefully resolve complaints about the credit model without resorting to players being encouraged to keep playing the same event over and over again.

Maybe you're familiar with that southpark meme where one character says to the other "It's finally over, what do we do now?"
"What do you mean? Now we can finally play the game."

Players are always going to follow the route of least resistance. I mean, there's no real incentive at the moment to collect as many cars as possible seeing how little relevant content there is for most of them, so the fact that people are already grinding away for cars, is problematic if you're trying to create a game that encourages players to stick around for longer. What happens when you buy all the cars in the game? Nothing right? Do you have any additional incentive now to keep playing? Outside of Sport mode, not really. So what's the point in grinding races already? What's the point in buying MTXs when you'd have to spend thousands to get even close to unlocking everything. And that's the thing, every time I see someone say that the new credit model is obviously there to promote players to buying MTXs, they never mention the fact that MTXs are now prohibitively expensive and less appealing than ever. It's a complete contradiction.

A lot of people see the design decisions in this game and interpret them to mean that PD is trying to make the average player spend hundreds in MTXs. I personally interpret them as trying to get players to stick around and play more regularly throughout the games life. Legend cars for example, a lot of people think that's trying to inspire FOMO to get players to spend money. Which first of all, is a bit short sighted as the cars are on rotation and are going to come back around in a month or whatever. And secondly, is very similar to something like Xur in Destiny. Which was a mechanic that encouraged players to check in every week and to play the game if they saw something they wanted to collect. It's even similar to the Mileage exchange in GT Sport, which contained cars exclusive to that store front and required you to regularly play the game if you wanted to collect everything you wanted in there.

So yeah, that's how I see things. Even if you're willing to spend thousands you still can't buy every car in the game right now because some of them haven't even become available yet. So for me personally when you say that basically every decision in the game is there to get people to buy MTXs, I think that's short sighted and that there's no evidence that this model is going to harm the long term health of this game. If someone feels that they have to spend hundreds of dollars or hours grinding to unlock everything in the game now, then to be honest I think that's kind of their problem. Especially as there is no genuine reason to do so.

I don't think the game is perfect and I have to say that I'm disappointed with the lack of single player content there is right now, but I don't see any problem with it taking someone ages to unlock every car in the game. I know someone will say that "but that's the point of the game, you're supposed to collect everything", well, are you? I see it more as the player should collect, drive, tune, and race the cars that they personally want to do that with. There is no reason to buy every car in the game other than for the sake of it.

You make a good point about the actual quality of the MTXs on the playstation store.

They are ridiculously overpriced.

To get 2 million credits requires me to spend about £16 (in my currency of pound sterling), which is a joke.

Let's assume I need the 10+ million I originally mentioned.

Well, we are talking about spending another 80ish.

Remembering, also, that this doesn't include the credits needed to add tuning parts.