Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[HenrySwanson]

If only they had thought of that themselves, it's not as if Iran would react negatively to such actions, and Hezbollah is just a tiny, disorganised bunch!

Your post is both fantastically simplistic and patronizing.

So....go against Iran?

Utter nonsense, the standards to which the west holds Arab nations to far exceed those that Israel are held to. A candidate for the opposition leader in the last few days demonstrated that quite clearly!

Talking about the average guy on the street, not our governments.

Back with the simplistic and patronising again.

Is it wrong...?

I agree, but do you not see how you're contradicting yourself here?

How so.

 

[Scaff]

So....go against Iran?

It's as if you didn't read my reply.

Talking about the average guy on the street, not our governments.

I'm talking about both, but nice goalpost maneuvering.

Is it wrong...?

Yes, because it's overly simplistic and patronising, did you miss the part where I said that?

How so.

Is Israel "a favoured son" or do we hold them to a higher standard than Arab nations ("Why can't we expect the same of the Arab nations that we expect of Israel?")?

 

[HenrySwanson]

It's as if you didn't read my reply.

Sorry I'm not getting this.

Just so we're clear, what do you want them to do?

 

[inCloud]

Lebanese can realise that they were being held under the thumb of terrorists.

They well aware about that, problem was that Hezbollah had military force more powerful than Lebanon army + support from biggest country in region.

We need to end the paternalistic way of dealing with the region.

You can't mess up region and walk away like nothing happend. Next ISIS would rise and whole region becomes bloodbath + trade routes would become unavailable and global trade would be paralysed.

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya already become territory that US and co treating like matures. It just doesn't work.

 

[Scaff]

Sorry I'm not getting this.

Just so we're clear, what do you want them to do?

I didn't claim to have an answer, you did, it's just your 'solution' isn't a solution.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I didn't claim to have an answer, you did, it's just your 'solution' isn't a solution.

My idea was to treat them like grown-ups and hope they realise the chance they've been given.

You're saying that's simplistic and patronising.

What exactly should people in the West be thinking?

I'm talking about both, but nice goalpost maneuvering.

There's a difference between the two.

Yes, because it's overly simplistic and patronising, did you miss the part where I said that?

So it's wrong because it's reductive?

Is Israel "a favoured son" or do we hold them to a higher standard than Arab nations ("Why can't we expect the same of the Arab nations that we expect of Israel?")?

Hence the difference between Joe Bloggs and our governments.

They well aware about that, problem was that Hezbollah had military force more powerful than Lebanon army + support from biggest country in region.

Now's as good a time as any.

You can't mess up region and walk away like nothing happend. Next ISIS would rise and whole region becomes bloodbath + trade routes would become unavailable and global trade would be paralysed.

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya already become territory that US and co treating like matures. It just doesn't work.

Eventually, we have to call time.

But yes, we are seeing the resurgence of ISIS, and the call to end the anti-IS coalition could be disastrous for the region and the world (not just the West).

 

[Danoff]

What exactly should people in the West be thinking?

People in the west should be thinking, why on earth would we take a side in this total s-show.

 

[HenrySwanson]

People in the west should be thinking, why on earth would we take a side in this total s-show.

There's a good argument that we may soon have to:

Israel-Hezbollah conflict hinges on a crude question: who do you want to win?

We can’t afford to doubt the West’s moral legitimacy. It is the steel we need to face down enemies of liberty

www.thetimes.com

 

[Danoff]

There's a good argument that we may soon have to:

Israel-Hezbollah conflict hinges on a crude question: who do you want to win?

We can’t afford to doubt the West’s moral legitimacy. It is the steel we need to face down enemies of liberty

www.thetimes.com

I skimmed your article and found no good argument. Can you summarize in your own words what you think is a good argument for picking sides in that conflict?

 

[Scaff]

So it's wrong because it's reductive?

No, it's wrong because what you seem to be suggesting is a vague notion that 'someone' stands up to Iran/Hezbollah, it's not a solution so much as shouting buzz words and waving your hand ion the direction of the problem.

Keep in mind that you've not actually proposed a solution, more talk in generalist riddles.

 

[inCloud]

Now's as good a time as any.

Because of Israel brilliant operation of beheading Hezbollah

why on earth would we take a side in this total s-show

1) Responsibility for years of irresponsible behaviour of Western elites
2) Common sense. Vital trade routes going through Middle East, ME is supplying big chunk of vital resources for EU and US, Islam is big factor in modern Europe and next ISIS would continue expansion into Europe after overtaking ME.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I skimmed your article and found no good argument. Can you summarize in your own words what you think is a good argument for picking sides in that conflict?

The moral clarity the West offers, and how the vision and institutions are better for humanity vs the alternative. I disagree with Syed's cheerleading for Israel's recent actions, but it does feel like we are on the edge of something and it's coming to a time to make hard decisions.

No, it's wrong because what you seem to be suggesting is a vague notion that 'someone' stands up to Iran/Hezbollah, it's not a solution so much as shouting buzz words and waving your hand ion the direction of the problem.

Keep in mind that you've not actually proposed a solution, more talk in generalist riddles.

If we intervene we're being the parent, yet again. If Lebanon wants peace they have to fight for it, unfortunately.

I don't get why it's a problem pointing this out?

1) Responsibility for years of irresponsible behaviour of Western elites
2) Common sense. Vital trade routes going through Middle East, ME is supplying big chunk of vital resources for EU and US, Islam is big factor in modern Europe and next ISIS would continue expansion into Europe after overtaking ME.

What side would you want Russia to take?

 

[MatskiMonk]

The moral clarity the West offers

 

[HenrySwanson]

I think it's the best we've got, looking at the history of our species. But it is far from perfect.

 

[inCloud]

What side would you want Russia to take?

Russia is European country, it can't take any other side other than being European country and forcing European way of life on everyone nearby. Alternative is medieval theocracy of Afghanistan.

How it should be done is big question, but it must be done.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Russia is European country, it can't take any other side other than being European country and forcing European way of life on everyone nearby.

Nah, I don't agree with that....

 

[Scaff]

If we intervene we're being the parent, yet again. If Lebanon wants peace they have to fight for it, unfortunately.

I don't get why it's a problem pointing this out?

Because it's, once again for the cheap seats, overly simplistic.

 

[inCloud]

Nah, I don't agree with that....

With what? That we are Europeans or that it would be impossible to survive if Afghanistan eat our Central Asian neighbours?

 

[HenrySwanson]

Because it's, once again for the cheap seats, overly simplistic.

Then expect nothing to change and another major flare-up in a decade or so. What do they want, Israel to suddenly not exist?

With what? That we are Europeans or that it would be impossible to survive if Afghanistan eat our Central Asian neighbours?

This part:

forcing European way of life on everyone nearby.

Who is "everyone"?

 

[inCloud]

Who is "everyone"?

Kazakhstan is pretty much stable secular state, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan are more likely to be eaten by Afghanistan. Can't say much about Turkmenistan.

 

[Carbonox]

With what? That we are Europeans or that it would be impossible to survive if Afghanistan eat our Central Asian neighbours?

Everything for the last 3 years has indicated that "Europeans in name only" is a more accurate description.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Perhaps if Putin had branded his actions in Ukraine as a Special Colonisation Operation, people in Europe and the USA would have been far more forgiving.

 

[Joey D]

Russia's a European country? It's like 75% in Asia. Russia isn't European. It doesn't embrace European ideals, it doesn't act European, and it's certainly not functioning like a European country.

 

[inCloud]

Everything for the last 3 years has indicated that "Europeans in name only" is a more accurate description.

Yugoslavia wasn't part of Europe? Spain, Greece, Portugal? UK and France didn't participate in acts of aggression against others countries?

 

[Carbonox]

Yugoslavia wasn't part of Europe? Spain, Greece, Portugal? UK and France didn't participate in acts of aggression against others countries?

The overwhelming rejection of the remainder of the continent's values and meddling with elections inside the EU are an equally striking distinction as the hopelessly outdated military conquest mentality.

 

[Liquid]

Russia's history of extending its will and hedgemony onto its neighbours by force might have some relevance to Israel and Palestine but it feels like it's a specific whataboutism best discussed elsewhere.

Just my opinion.

 

[inCloud]

The overwhelming rejection of the remainder of the continent's values

Yugoslavians did ethnic cleansings 30 years ago, that one?

hopelessly outdated military conquest mentality

Outdated "president", yeah.

Russia's history of extending its will and hedgemony onto its neighbours

Russian history is history of despotism, mostly with strong foreign influence. As we all know very well, despotism isn't some curse of the nation, European countries is great example of that.

As for extension of will, its universal scenario for any country, difference only in possibilities and methods.

 

[Danoff]

Because of Israel brilliant operation of beheading Hezbollah

1) Responsibility for years of irresponsible behaviour of Western elites
2) Common sense. Vital trade routes going through Middle East, ME is supplying big chunk of vital resources for EU and US, Islam is big factor in modern Europe and next ISIS would continue expansion into Europe after overtaking ME.

Uh...

Isn't taking a side in this MORE irresponsible behavior? And how are we protecting ourselves against ISIS by aligning with either side? None of that makes any sense.

The moral clarity the West offers, and how the vision and institutions are better for humanity vs the alternative. I disagree with Syed's cheerleading for Israel's recent actions, but it does feel like we are on the edge of something and it's coming to a time to make hard decisions.

Uh...

The moral clarity that... Israel offers? No.