Japanese cars seem to have way better stock tires!!!

[balang_479]

I can understand Kazunori helping the japanese car industry slightly but giving the japanese cars much better stock tires is a bit too much..

I dont think Evos and Subarus have better tires than F430s and R8s in real life.

Evo X tires - Yokohama Advan A13c - Supposedly S2

Audi R8 tires - Pirelli P-Zero R01 - Supposedly S1

Renault Clio V6 tires - Michelin Pilot Sport - Supposedly N3

Advan A13c really that much better, especially compared to the Michelin Pilot Sport which are the top street Michelin tires (excluding the Pilot Cup which are semislicks)..

to me they seem to seriously favor japanese products...

If the tires were that much better why wouldnt the European manufacturers mount them as stock, there is no real price difference between the tires yet the performance gain is huge. I believe Pilot Sport tires are as good as P-ZEROs... and that the Advans cant be that much better.

Also the Corvette Z06 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport tires, the same type as the Clio V6, yet one is N3 and the other is S1..

This tire issue is really annoying, i wish they would model real tires or simply get them more accurate, its such an important thing i think.

 

[Forgetful]

I don't think the 'stock tire' list is meant as a direct comparison, saying 'this game tire = this RL tire'. It's meant more as "This is the game tire to use to best replicate the feel of the RL car."

 

[balang_479]

I don't think the 'stock tire' list is meant as a direct comparison, saying 'this game tire = this RL tire'. It's meant more as "This is the game tire to use to best replicate the feel of the RL car."

I understand that their not exact counterparts for real life but their the supposed equivalent by their table.. like Bridgestone RE070 are also supposed to be S2s.

 

[Ardius]

You just contradicted your thread title:

Also the Corvette Z06 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport tires, the same type as the Clio V6, yet one is N3 and the other is S1..

Unless Corvette's are Japanese now? Wouldn't surprise me lol.

Also, this clearly shows its not a "japanese bias" its more an issue with general tyre accuracies and the rather ambiguous tyre names.

 

[santiagomo87]

Also the Corvette Z06 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport tires, the same type as the Clio V6, yet one is N3 and the other is S1..

Corvette's tyres are much wider than the Clio's.

 

[balang_479]

You just contradicted your thread title:



Unless Corvette's are Japanese now? Wouldn't surprise me lol.

Also, this clearly shows its not a "japanese bias" its more an issue with general tyre accuracies and the rather ambiguous tyre names.

Yeah im more complaining the fact that theyre unaccurate but japanese cars seem to have an advantage with the S2s.

The fact that the width is differemt should change the tire type and compound, it should be a characteristic of the car.

 

[TiJayLFS]

Just out of interest, where is this "stock tyres list"? I keep hearing about it but can't find it anywhere?

 

[balang_479]

At the bottom on Driving Options in the in-game Manual.

 

[JDMKING13]

I give no stock cars S tires IMO they are to grippy. Supercars such as F430 Audi R8 get N3 tires and Evos sti NSX-R, 350Z Also N3 Integra RX-8, etc N2, and cars such as Lancia Ferrari 512bb and the suzka cap, get N1.

 

[niky]

For one... they are an estimation... for another, the "stock tire" list is now completely inaccurate with the changes in S-tire grip brought about by Spec-III...

For another... what experience do you have of the actual tires themselves to say that the relationship isn't accurate?

Corvette gets more grip out of the "same tire type" as the Renault because they have tires as wide as oil drums.

I've driven four or five different cars on Contisport Contacts... (which, IMHO, are about one or two rungs below the best street tires), and you do have much more grip when you go from a car with a 205 or 235 width tire to one with about 255-285mm of width. Shocking? At the size you'd find on an ordinary compact, Tires like Contisports and Pilot Sports are grippy, but not astonishingly so... not compared to what I have on my car... but size them up for something like... say... an M5, and though the edge of grip remains pretty easygoing compared to R-comps, the actual grip plateau in comparison to the smaller sizes is huge.

And yes, the tires on your typical EVO MR are grippier by far than Pilot Sports. I don't really see what the problem is, there. Except for the fact that your typical old Evo could rip its drivetrain apart on drag-launches on account of the tires being too sticky.

If you think it's "unfair" that a Japanese manufacturer, in real life, has actually equipped their car with noisy, uncomfortable tires with short lifespans instead of going for (like the Europeans) a tire which is quieter, rides softer, is safer in the rain and lasts longer on long European highways... don't follow the "stock tire list". Simple.

 

[blkvzgo]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but...
@niky - you're right, tire width has a major influence on grip, but what balang_479 was trying to say is that tire width should be a characteristic of the car, and changing tires should only change the compound. In short, we should be able to equip the Clio and the Corvette with N3s for example, and still have different levels of grip because of tire width difference. I don't think it works that way now.
By the way I also use the recommended tire list (the first row, N2 if it says N2~N3 for example), but I use N3s for S1 specified cars. Yes, the Evos and Subarus do have softer compound tires stock in real life, but with the current level of grip of S-class tires I think those cars are better off with N3s.

 

[Ferrari_Tifoso]

Pirelli PZero has more grip than the Yokohama A13C.

 

[niky]

And that's from experience?

Sorry to bump an old thread, but...
@niky - you're right, tire width has a major influence on grip, but what balang_479 was trying to say is that tire width should be a characteristic of the car, and changing tires should only change the compound. In short, we should be able to equip the Clio and the Corvette with N3s for example, and still have different levels of grip because of tire width difference. I don't think it works that way now.
By the way I also use the recommended tire list (the first row, N2 if it says N2~N3 for example), but I use N3s for S1 specified cars. Yes, the Evos and Subarus do have softer compound tires stock in real life, but with the current level of grip of S-class tires I think those cars are better off with N3s.

I feel that way too, but obviously, you can only test the car on what you get. And then afterwards, decide what rank to assign to that car's tires and what that means for the car's performance on other tires. And since GT5P only has categories for N1-N2-N3-S1-S2-S3-etcetera and not N3.1-N3.2-N3.3-etcetera as it would be in real life, there's no way to truly equalize cars. Not unless PD creates their own "control tyre" that's available in all the various sizes that stock tires come on... and let me tell you... finding an R-comp in the exact same size as some OEM tires is awfully difficult... especially if you need the exact same compound for every single car you'll be testing.

Thus... PD tests a car. Decides whether to classify it as having N1s, N2s, N3s or S1s as stock, then applies the calculated performance difference based on that. Sorry for some cars if they're rated at N3 but have tires that are only marginally N3 in real life if that makes them disadvantaged compared to cars that are rated at N3s but whose tires are more akin to S1s.

 

[balang_479]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but...
@niky - you're right, tire width has a major influence on grip, but what balang_479 was trying to say is that tire width should be a characteristic of the car, and changing tires should only change the compound. In short, we should be able to equip the Clio and the Corvette with N3s for example, and still have different levels of grip because of tire width difference. I don't think it works that way now.
By the way I also use the recommended tire list (the first row, N2 if it says N2~N3 for example), but I use N3s for S1 specified cars. Yes, the Evos and Subarus do have softer compound tires stock in real life, but with the current level of grip of S-class tires I think those cars are better off with N3s.

This is exactly what im talking about...

We should be able to equip stock tires, and the cars should be tested with stock tires they come with. There is plenty of information around to find out how these their stock tires compare to S-tyres such as the R888 or A046.

 

[paskowitz]

Yeah I agree. Evo X gets S2... come on. They really need to rework that whole system.

 

[blkvzgo]

Personally I think they should decrease the grip of S-class tires, like it was before Spec 3. That would make N and S class tires comparable and would effectively eliminate the problem, although there are other solutions. For now the gap between those classes is absurd. Actually this tire thing and the lack of proper lift-off oversteer in some fwd cars (imo) are the only 2 things that keep this game from becoming the perfect simulator for me. Guess we'll just have to wait for GT5 and see.

 

[niky]

This is exactly what im talking about...

We should be able to equip stock tires, and the cars should be tested with stock tires they come with. There is plenty of information around to find out how these their stock tires compare to S-tyres such as the R888 or A046.

Well... go ahead and look. There are a lot of tire comparison articles out there, but unfortunately, since the stock tires on these cars aren't always available in the same sizes, you'd be hard pressed to gather a comparison group.

Not to mention the fact that certain cars have tires with the same label on the tin as off-the-shelf ones, but with bespoke tread patterns, compound or construction.

The best anyone can do without building their own control tire available in every single size and sidewall stiffness under the sun is estimate. And even if you have a control tire, the cars will behave differently if they're not tuned for that compound. That's why I found it so amusing when we had those flamewars about the GT-R. Yes, it has a much stickier tire (which just so happens to be a DOT-legal street tire). No, you can't even the odds by giving it the tires that come on a 911. It wasn't tuned for them. And no, just sticking GT-R tires on a 911 might not have the desired result, as it wasn't tuned for them, either... from experience, better tires may mean more lateral grip, but if your car isn't tuned for them, that just overworks the suspension, gets you to the bump stops earlier and causes more understeer.

Again, don't overanalyze. If GT5 introduces a tire simulation engine, with sidewall flex and tread squirm, working on incorrect assumptions, then you have a genuine right to moan about improper tire modeling.

And... GT5P already tells you what baseline they set for the stock tires. It's just in this case they changed the parameters for those stock tires, so they're no longer accurate. Probably changing up the parameters was easier than adding another class of tires. A glitch that they will likely fix for GT5.

 

[balang_479]

Theres no need for this control tyre, each car which is tested should be replicated using theyre stock tires. Then they can analyze the grip levels and fade of aftermarket tires. Yes tires are complicated and the range is massive, but what theyve done is created this system of their own tires which doesnt replicate real life, they should use stock tires and aftermarket ones for upgrade.

Plus who said anything about putting other stock tires on other cars.... and what you say only really applies to the GT-R, that is because there are no other runflat tires with those grip levels for a 20" wheel, and downsizing the wheel to a 19" has been tested (they swapped the RE070R for RE010R in 19") and it resulted in much slower lap times, despite both tires being made from very similar compounds. Thats why the Amuse Phantom GT-R did a 59" sec lap time around Tsukuba on stock tires, because there are none others available (only choice is RE070R and Dunlop SP SPort 600 both supplied by Nissan).
Other than that the whole tuned for the tire thing only applies to tuned cars with much more rigid suspension. Stock suspension works well with all common use tires (even Semi slicks) due to its forgiving nature.

 

[niky]

So.

You upgrade your Mazda Atenza and Suzuki Cappuchino to an aftermarket tire... say... an A048 (a street-legal competition tire).

Now, given one car has lateral skidpan grip of 0.8 (theoretically) and one has lateral skidpan grip of 0.9 (theoretically)... how would you apply the difference?

Will upgrading different cars to an "S1" tire give them the same lateral grip? (in real life, no.)

Will upgrading, instead, force a modifier on their grip... which is plus n percent tire grip? (which wouldn't reflect real life, either, as the starting grips are much different... but this is most likely how GT does it.)

Or... should you test the cars on A048s in real-life to know exactly how they'd respond to that tire? Ideally, yes, if you're going to include that tire in the game... as it will have a different effect on different cars.


EDIT: And there's no way the stock suspension will work the same way on track compounds. That's from experience. You put an R-compound on a street car, and if it's a good street car, all you'll notice is a little more body roll and a little more understeer. If it's a particularly bad one, or even if it's a good one (say, a brand new Miata) that has much lower grip in real-life, the car will roll all over the place, bounce off the bump-stops, become more unsettled in chicanes and will be trickier to drive, and harder to control once you lose traction (because the edge of grip is way beyond the suspension's abilities). Top Gear did one laughable test, where they "tuned" an Avantime and were "shocked" when stickier tires on bigger rims didn't result in a faster laptime. D'uh. I could've told them that...

A car is designed for its grip levels. Anything below that will still be okay. Anything above that will often need suspension adjustments or upgrades to work properly.

-

For some other racing games, it's easy. Cars in the same series and class are restricted to the same tire sizes and types, so extrapolating performance gains or losses from different tire compounds is easier... and no one gains an unfair advantage going up or down.

But when you're talking about wildly different cars and wildly different tires, tire comps and tire sizes, you either take the data it as it is and develop a rough estimate of how much of the car's handling is due to the tires, or you assign a control tire to all tests to even things out. The control tire is how I'd do it, with a back-to-back comparison with "stock" tires. That's the only way you'd ever find out how good the stock tires actually are.

That's why I asked that poster above whether his opinion that P-Zeros are stickier than A13Cs is from real life or if he pulled that completely out of thin air. Unless you take the time to design and manufacture a control tire to normalize all tests, there's absolutely no way of saying whether one tire is categorically better than another in all sizes and applications.

Take an Autocar test a while back. They tested five tires on two different cars. And while the overall winner was the same, the performance differences for each car were markedly different. This was the exact same tires and and compounds in each test, but in different sizes and applications... where they had markedly different effects.

I don't want to fall back on my old "it depends" answer, but in real life, there is no absolute or golden rule about traction and tire classification. Now, racing teams and tire manufacturers spend boatloads of money testing these differences, but on only one car at a time, in one size. If you were to ask one video game company to do terabytes' worth of testing just to classify every single tire on all six hundred or so cars in-game, then we could probably expect GT5 to be ready by Christmas, 2025.

 

[Sniffs]

Logic says that all these REALLY little details, like Stock tire performance, is too much to bother with. if the Boss takes this hint, we may lose GT5 for another 5 YEARS!

I got a pleasant surprise in real life with Yokohamas. when I had my front set changed during the Alignment Debacle, the slapped Geolanders on the front. not only did I get good, grippy tires, I got some incredibly LONG LASTING ones, even with my badly mis-aligned suspension.

 

[balang_479]

I would never believe anything Top Gear does, and if you say R-comps wont improve lap times working on stock suspension then you dont have much experience... there will be a greater difference when working with sports cars mentioned above as well. Take example Hot Version VTEC Club Vol.2, They switched from RE050 to RE01s on an S2000 and managed to shave roughly 1 seconds off tsukuba with no other mods or alignment. I cant say IVE ever experience this, as ive never switched to better compound tires without any suspension mods, but sports cars have easily good enough suspension for there to be a large improvement with S Tyres... Why do you think the new FD2 Type-R on stock suspension sometimes beats Mugen or Spoon cars with same RE070 tires but modded suspension with coilovers and sway bars, because the stock suspension is fully capable of handling that grip... stock suspension is more forgiving, harder suspension mave have more stability but the rate at which traction will break at the limit is much more than with softer suspension, my father who is a racing instructor for Nissan, Lamborghini, Ferrari, VW, Audi (he even taught the Gran Turismo Academy drivers how to race for the Dubai 24H... no joke) will be able to explain this to you.

Like you said have a control tyre is not feasilble due to the large variation of sizes in cars, but gran turismo should be able to make decent estimation in grip increase compared to stock tires to r-comps with taking into account tire dimensions and suspension geometry (that is ofcourse if they actually measure the suspension system for the cars they model)...

 

[niky]

Read:

EDIT: And there's no way the stock suspension will work the same way on track compounds. That's from experience. You put an R-compound on a street car, and if it's a good street car, all you'll notice is a little more body roll and a little more understeer. If it's a particularly bad one, or even if it's a good one (say, a brand new Miata) that has much lower grip in real-life, the car will roll all over the place, bounce off the bump-stops, become more unsettled in chicanes and will be trickier to drive, and harder to control once you lose traction (because the edge of grip is way beyond the suspension's abilities). Top Gear did one laughable test, where they "tuned" an Avantime and were "shocked" when stickier tires on bigger rims didn't result in a faster laptime. D'uh. I could've told them that...

Did I say anywhere that r-comps would not make a car faster? I said that stickier tires on a poor stock suspension will make the car's behavior less predictable. This is from experience. More grip is not the be-all and end-all of performance. It's one tool that must be used in conjunction with other tools to achieve the desired results.

A sample size of two cars does not make the case for all cars. Swapping tires on the S2000 yields one second. But only one second? That's equivalent to just a tenth per corner.

Swapping suspensions on a "loose" car, on the other hand, can yield five to ten seconds per lap. Now if you could adjust suspension parameters on the S2000 to take advantage of the extra grip, the lap times should fall even further. The Type R, since you mention it... is a very stiff road car. Cars like the Z06, SL55, BMW 3-series, Alfa Romeo Brera, Ford Focus ST, etcetera... are not. Oh, the 3 is, but that's because of the run-flats... and if you think modelling grip differences between a run-flat street tire and a non-run-flat sports tire are the same as modelling the differences between a regular street tire and the same sports tire... especially given the extreme resistance to flex in the BMW sidewalls, well...

With Top Gear's test, they didn't go any faster with the stickier tires because the Avantime wasn't generating enough lateral G's to need it. The "performance" tires they put on the car didn't change the balance of understeer-oversteer the car had... so it was still not turning in fast enough. I could put racing tires on a (non-turbo) 1000cc Suzuki Alto and it still won't go any faster than a stock one on Tsukuba...

-

Again... you want them to test the cars as stock and then test the aftermarket tires separately... then put both in game.

Take 600 cars. Take over a dozen aftermarket tires (that's only four or five street tires, four or five DOT-legal competition tires, and two or three different kinds of slicks... that doesn't include Rally tires, snow tires and ice-racing tires). Combine the two by applying the changes those aftermarket tires make to grip evenly across the whole range. Said system would be as "inaccurate" as it is currently, except you'd have brand names for your replacement tires.

As I've said, in reference to the Autocar test, aftermarket tires will have differing effects on different platforms, and modelling these changes would be all but impossible without testing those aftermarket tires on the cars.

 

[balang_479]

With Top Gear's test, they didn't go any faster with the stickier tires because the Avantime wasn't generating enough lateral G's to need it. The "performance" tires they put on the car didn't change the balance of understeer-oversteer the car had... so it was still not turning in fast enough. I could put racing tires on a (non-turbo) 1000cc Suzuki Alto and it still won't go any faster than a stock one on Tsukuba...

I dont understand how you can say this... tires are probably the most important thing for a sports car (or performance oriented car). Tires are one of the few mechanicals mods which can be done to a car which work well by themselves.... if you stiffen suspension only, you wont get noticeable change in lap times, if you stiffen sway bars, you wont see a lap time change, same for other mods, like chassis stiffening. These mods work well as a package and sometimes can make hardly any difference... Better compound tires will yield better lap times, fact. You say Type-R suspension is hard, but compared to other sports cars it isnt, and certainly compared to Spoon, J's Racing,etc... setup which run up to 26kg/mm! This can be seen with the S2000 as well, suspension mods yield no real increase in performance (we are talking about sports cars here), tires increase performance on all cars, Top Gear people are idiots and after what ive heard they are not to be trusted in any way.

Suspension settings are changed when more power is added to a car, so you need to control the extra torque or a car is lightened or more downforce is added and so on... ALONE it doesnt noticeably change LAP times, it may feel nicer to drive but unless you perform other mods it wont make you significantly faster. Now if you change tires as well as suspension the greatest lap time decrease will be due to the tires, but with a properly setup car to suit the driver more time can be shaved off, but one important thing to realise is that suspension does not increase grip.

Did I say anywhere that r-comps would not make a car faster? I said that stickier tires on a poor stock suspension will make the car's behavior less predictable.

I dont know what car you were driving to notice this....

Now what I'm saying is very general for sports cars, you may get cars with poorly designed suspension where the car is maybe unbalanced, too much oversteer to push front tires to the limit, too soft for weight of car, or even the basic geometry design problems etc...
But with a car with good suspension design with a comfortable ride yet performing, which is most sports cars, stiffening suspension or sway bars wont make a noticeable difference, alignment change might make a car more suitable to the drivers driving style or track but thats not constant.

Wow, we are getting sersiously off topic lol ...
I forgot we were talking about japanese cars have better stock tires...

For gaming design i dont know how they would or should design realistic tyres models efficiently without out testing multiple tyres on a variation of cars, they could generalize some car groups with similar handling characteristics and make a model for them and then the grip is affected by each cars tires size and specs and so on...

 

[niky]

A Miata, for one. My car, for another... which handles well on stock tires (I believe Road and Track got 70 mph on the US version in the 400 foot slalom). Let's see... the Toyota Yaris sedan (absolutely horrid on aftermarket tires and rims... you can induce unpredictable rear-axle hop because of the rear suspension)... I do a lot of test-driving and modifying.. and I see a lot of "modified" cars... cars that manufacturers send us with dress-up kits and bigger wheels and better tires... which don't drive any better (and sometimes worse) than they do without.

If your suspension is too soft for your tires, your car will take longer to take a set within a chicane. In a long or medium corner, stickier tires will mean more grip and better times, yes, but in a chicane or transition, they'll unsettle the car. You won't go off the road backwards, mind you, but that extra hesitation isn't good for driver confidence or lap times. Maybe I'm biased, because I slalom and autocross a lot, but for me, I like better suspensions than stickier tires. During the Car-of-the-Year test we had last year, the fastest car through the cones in the compact group had tires and wheels towards the smaller side... and was running older model tires than the other cars.

As a note: a Mustang magazine did a test with one car on aftermarket tires. It drove horribly. They swapped out the suspension for one with better roll-control and firmer damping. They gained ten seconds a lap, with the same car, same driver, in even worse conditions than the previous run. Our local touring car series switched to a new tire that gave worse lap-times at first. Retuning with the tire made the lap-times faster than the old one, with no other changes. Suspension tuning does wonders.

Maybe I'm being alarmist. It's true, many sportscars can take stickier rubber than stock without issue, but like I've said... Gran Turismo is not completely populated by sportscars. Several cars in the Prologue are cars I'd consider ill-suited for tire upgrades, and the full game will have more cars of the less-sporting variety.

Maybe you can generalize, but how is that any more accurate than what they have now?

 

[balang_479]

Maybe you can generalize, but how is that any more accurate than what they have now?

I have no idea how they process model the tires at the moment, but I think they should step it up a bit like Forza has (im not a Forza>GT person) with tyre telemetry. and also have tyre deflection, adjustable tyre pressure, simple things like tyre dimensions. And more realistic in general, becuase at the moment the tyre wear physics arent the best...

and ultimately my dream would be to have these adjustment, with onboard telemetry that we can analyze, and say if our tyre pressure is too high, we loose grip which heats up the tires and accelerates tyre wear. These things would be so awesome for setting a car up for an endurance race and would add so much... atm the endurance racing is boring, and just considering the improvements they could make with tyres (let alone time, weather, damage!), endurance racing could become as magical as it really is.

 

[niky]

No arguments, there! 👍