Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

[LOOS]

One car,the same set up except the camber.
Two drivers,the one who believes that camber works drives the set up with camber and other who believes that 0/0 is faster drives the set up with 0/0 camber.
Here's the result

I clicked the link but nothing there at all but a flawed test run by those who don't know any better and praised by the even more clueless.

Was that supposed to prove a point? Maybe it proves you can't tune cars throwing darts at setting values and somewhat that only fools tune cars one setting at a time then move to the next setting as if nothing has an impact on anything else.

It's overvaluing those test that just show the person overvaluing the test has not much tuner knowledge on how settings relate to each other. Not knowing how adjustments directly relate to other settings shows that person's opinion is not as valuable to the discussion as it is to them. There is a minimum level of understanding required most don't want to fully accept they don't have, for some reason everybody thinks they can tune cars after reading a Guide thats really just a bunch of snipits from various tuning books misunderstood by the guide writer. They change style of tuning/driving every few months lol. That's the biggest part of the problem. Too many opinions, not enough that count.

I'm sure a few could get proper testing done with a high caliber tuner and drivers, but we need so many to just be quiet while it goes on and a driver consistent in top 10 leaderboards driving objectively.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I clicked the link but nothing there at all but a flawed test run by those who don't know any better and praised by the even more clueless.

Was that supposed to prove a point? Maybe it proves you can't tune cars throwing darts at setting values and somewhat that only fools tune cars one setting at a time then move to the next setting as if nothing has an impact on anything else.

It's overvaluing those test that just show the person overvaluing the test has not much tuner knowledge on how settings relate to each other. Not knowing how adjustments directly relate to other settings shows that person's opinion is not as valuable to the discussion as it is to them. There is a minimum level of understanding required mist don't want to fully accept they don't have, that's the biggest part of the problem. Too many opinions, not enough that count.

No offense, but you may want to tone down your responses. A bit harsh for someone who just joined. Remember, you will catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

As for those who use camber saying 0.0 has more grip......it depends on the track and car used. More turns, less grip, more straights equals more grip at 0.0. Real world would be different but that is how PD coded GT6.

NOW, can we get back to a civilized conversation and stop throwing jabs as the thread host requested in the OP please?

 

[LOOS]

As for those who use camber saying 0.0 has more grip......it depends on the track and car used. More turns, less grip, more straights equals more grip at 0.0. Real world would be different but that is how PD coded GT6.

Hmmm How so, or do you think IRL the same Camber setting would be ideal for both?

That's it for Track, but what about cars? You said depends on car, How so? Is not more grip 0/0 more grip no matter what car is used???

Great Examples of nothing.

 

[super_gt]

Was that supposed to prove a point? Maybe it proves you can't tune cars throwing darts at setting values and somewhat that only fools tune cars one setting at a time then move to the next setting as if nothing has an impact on anything else.

It's overvaluing those test that just show the person overvaluing the test has not much tuner knowledge on how settings relate to each other. Not knowing how adjustments directly relate to other settings shows that person's opinion is not as valuable to the discussion as it is to them. There is a minimum level of understanding required most don't want to fully accept they don't have, for some reason everybody thinks they can tune cars after reading a Guide thats really just a bunch of snipits from various tuning books misunderstood by the guide writer. They change style of tuning/driving every few months lol. That's the biggest part of the problem. Too many opinions, not enough that count.

I'm sure a few could get proper testing done with a high caliber tuner and drivers, but we need so many to just be quiet while it goes on and a driver consistent in top 10 leaderboards driving objectively.

This tune is not mine,it belongs to other driver

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Real world camber would change according to track type. Some need more, some less. GT6 does not totally simulate this, although some cars do better with camber, some are simply better without. Just my opinion, and almost 30 years turning wrench.

I have been down this road in these threads and have apologized for past reactions. @OdeFinn was the victim, I apologized and refuse to get into sparing battles. If you and I have in the past, then I apologize to you, or anyone else for that matter. All I ask, is keep it civil and respectful, or I will stay away again. You do not have to agree with me, or I you, that's the beauty of America. But, respect is earned, never demanded.

 

[LOOS]

although some cars do better with camber, some are simply better without. Just my opinion, and almost 30 years turning wrench.

Can I have example of either??

Some do, some dont, any examples at all?

I hear a lot of opinions, my requests are for somebody to substantiate them. 0/0 is repeatedly said to have most Grip and be faster, but nobody can back it up. Why are people so adament about their opinion that it is like this but won't back it up with anything beyond opinion.

I honestly think how the general opinion is formed around here is silly.. So many teachers still need to learn but ears are all shut.

There is no debate lol there is just a useless bag of opinions.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Zytek Greaves better with
TS030 better without

 

[OdeFinn]

One car,the same set up except the camber.
Two drivers,the one who believes that camber works drives the set up with camber and other who believes that 0/0 is faster drives the set up with 0/0 camber.
Here's the result

Gotta stop here a bit, if that test would done purely testing camber then your toe values should change along camber, even counted throw amount, if toe on zero camber is start point then camber tune should reduce toe front approx bit under .40 to near -0.70 and on rear reduction bit over .20 to bit under 0.40. Does that change results, dunno but that's reality of wheel direction what could be counted.
Values are a approximations, coz didn't have time to check real tire sizes of YB.

@Bowtie-muscle no problemo amigo.

 

[LOOS]

Zytek Greaves better with
TS030 better without

Set ups for them is kinda whats important here.

Do you think there is a possibility of a better Zytec set up without or lower and or a better TS030 with any?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Set ups for them is kinda whats important here.

Do you think there is a possibility of a better Zytec set up without or lower and or a better TS030 with any?

Always possible, but FOR ME, the TS030 felt better with some camber but the clock says it was faster without. I believe the Greaves is better with, I tried it without and was slower. And yes, I changed other settings such as toe and ARB. This is MY OPINION and not fact by any means. You asked for an example, and I gave you some. Another would be the Elise Type 72, it's pretty good with.

 

[LOOS]

Always possible, but FOR ME, the TS030 felt better with some camber but the clock says it was faster without. I believe the Greaves is better with, I tried it without and was slower. And yes, I changed other settings such as toe and ARB. This is MY OPINION and not fact by any means. You asked for an example, and I gave you some. Another would be the Elise Type 72, it's pretty good with.

The examples I requested go with a set up.

Humor the possibility the car can be tuned to go faster with in the case of the TS030 and for the Greaves without, less, or even more. I hoped to look at your TS030 set up to explore the set up and see if calculated tuning can add Camber while yielding a faster lap. It's more than just click other settings, you may not of had it all ideal at the time, either way the car can be tested and tuned, attempts can be made. What the problem is?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Check them for yourself, in my garage. Driving style does change things as well, so does wheel vs ds3.

 

[OdeFinn]

Actually direct compare would be close if used 1:1
-3.5/-2.0
-0.65/+0.40

 

[demonchilde]

Can I have example of either??

Some do, some dont, any examples at all?

There is no debate lol there is just a useless bag of opinions.

The old Ferrari. Not the 20 million dollar one, the 3-7 mil one.
I find it LOVES camber.
Of course, it may be how I drive, ect., but it does.
I'm not at home right now, or I would be more specific.

Oh, and your tone is rude. If you want anyone to respect you, cut that crap out.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The old Ferrari. Not the 20 million dollar one, the 3-7 mil one.
I find it LOVES camber.
Of course, it may be how I drive, ect., but it does.
I'm not at home right now, or I would be more specific.

Oh, and your tone is rude. If you want anyone to respect you, cut that crap out.

He's banned already Not sure exactly why ?, because someone reported him to be banned ? @Famine ?

 

[super_gt]

Gotta stop here a bit, if that test would done purely testing camber then your toe values should change along camber, even counted throw amount, if toe on zero camber is start point then camber tune should reduce toe front approx bit under .40 to near -0.70 and on rear reduction bit over .20 to bit under 0.40. Does that change results, dunno but that's reality of wheel direction what could be counted.
Values are a approximations, coz didn't have time to check real tire sizes of YB.

I'm not able to repeat the test,but it will be interesting if you want to try

 

[Famine]

He's banned already Not sure exactly why ?, because someone reported him to be banned ? @Famine ?

Personally I would have thought that eleven years of being repeatedly banned for a terrible attitude towards other members would have let the penny drop, but he keeps on coming back.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Personally I would have thought that eleven years of being repeatedly banned for a terrible attitude towards other members would have let the penny drop, but he keeps on coming back.

Ooopsy daisy, it was jack all along, again

He managed to post a tune here this time

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ctr-yellowbird-set-up-for-nurburgring.345242/

Not sure if the tune would be of use here.

 

[super_gt]

He'll be back in a few months.

Only a few days Johnny,only a few days.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

He's banned already Not sure exactly why ?, because someone reported him to be banned ? @Famine ?

Wasn't me, but it just goes to show that if you keep it civil, you can have discussion.

 

[CBH]

What's being discussed I thought was if using Camber above -0.5 was overall slower and camber above -0.5 causes loss of grip. MCH further adds he uses Camber to take the edge off some tunes by using the grip loss from Camber, but its still clear Camber reduces grip overall.

With all these opinions flying and some chime in saying the debate is dead, I'm confused there is not one set up proving anything, the guy who said he was faster with Camber all of a sudden decided not to post the tune, lol that's just funny.

MCH why is it bold to ask for a set up to showcase grip loss or not? Why is it whenever backed into a corner the topic is shifted off topic? Why so much Blah Blah Blah but no cars doing the talking??? Why do some say they are leaving but never really go?

That Scion FR-S '12 (450PP) I tuned I found it was faster with 0.5 front and rear 1.5 camber and I tried it without Camber it was a lot less grip, I was going to post my tune and I had it ready to post and I thought I will not post it because members on here may say I got this wrong or that is not right and the suspension is to high or to low and sow on, that is why I am not going to post the tune.

 

[MrGrado]

You can't test or tune camber on an oval track. Well you can, the results apply only to driving on oval tracks, thats all. Same as GT5 in fact.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

That Scion FR-S '12 (450PP) I tuned I found it was faster with 0.5 front and rear 1.5 camber and I tried it without Camber it was a lot less grip, I was going to post my tune and I had it ready to post and I thought I will not post it because members on here may say I got this wrong or that is not right and the suspension is to high or to low and sow on, that is why I am not going to post the tune.

You should feel free to post and not worry what others say unless they actually try it. No one should criticize your work and if they do, ignore it unless it is said in a way that is meant to help. Low powered light cars, like the Elise Type 72 do seem to sometimes like those camber settings.

So I say, post it. Or if you would like, post it in my garage or Exeter.

 

[CBH]

You should feel free to post and not worry what others say unless they actually try it. No one should criticize your work and if they do, ignore it unless it is said in a way that is meant to help. Low powered light cars, like the Elise Type 72 do seem to sometimes like those camber settings.

So I say, post it. Or if you would like, post it in my garage or Exeter.

Thanks anyway, I am not going to worry about posting it because we are not going to get anywhere talking about camber and I still say it is up to the individual if they want to use it or not.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Personally I would have thought that eleven years of being repeatedly banned for a terrible attitude towards other members would have let the penny drop, but he keeps on coming back.

I would just like to point out that I sniffed that one out first. A podium finish for me on that one.

 

[Robbks]

My thoughts on Camber is that is Does work, Sort of. Dependent on your driving style.
But not properly as it should in real life.

Take my favourite car, SUbaru BRZ, tuned for about 500pp on SH tyres
I usually target 0.5deg of -ve Camber on the front and 0.2 on the rear.

Through certain corners, say Turn 1 at Grand Valley, where you have a slight left kink, into the braking area and you turn early, once the weight shifts onto the front left tyre, you can feel the camber working,
As you transition onto the throttle you get a slight push and as the weight goes rearwards and still on the LH tyres, then the rear camber comes in to help get it out of the corner until it straightens up.

Now my driving style and preferred setups are for a hint of lift-off oversteer/ trail-braking to get the nose into the corner and the weight to shift onto the outside tyres. Under these conditions, Camber works for me.
I have a style when I drive in GT that I'm always cornering wherever possible.
Take Bathurst as my favourite track as an example,
I'm usually a little slow into turn 1 but from there all the way across the top of the mountain to Forests elbow, I almost always have some steering lock wound on to keep the weight of the car over the tyres with a camber advantage.

Some cars on some tracks it's not fast or comfortable to have that setup or style, they like be driven flat and brake/ accelerate in straight lines.

I take no notice of full lap testing and lap times to say that "Camber Works" or "Camber Doesn't Work"
we all know the effects that Camber has on braking and acceleration grip.
Camber in real life is a trade off between straight line grip and cornering grip.

 

[OdeFinn]

Some cars on some tracks it's not fast or comfortable to have that setup or style, they like be driven flat and brake/ accelerate in straight lines.

I take no notice of full lap testing and lap times to say that "Camber Works" or "Camber Doesn't Work"
we all know the effects that Camber has on braking and acceleration grip.
Camber in real life is a trade off between straight line grip and cornering grip.

👍 Yes, have to agree lot of this and add bit more, camber is also last key to alter oversteer/understeer, last if springs, arb, wings, springs, ride height or rake isn't helping, or using them sacrifice too much on other key elements of your tune.
If your driving style isn't fluent you'll probably won't gain any help from camber, except that last way to control under/oversteer.

I'm not able to repeat the test,but it will be interesting if you want to try

Maybe giving a shot, but done so many tests what already are sufficient to me, this is just repeating same again. Way how testing would work better is to get identical car and only tuning suspension for camber and zero camber, not only slamming camber in or taking out. Suspension what works for camber probably won't work for zero and vise versa.
My garage's last ten tunes at least can be used for camber, but I'm guessing at none of those are staying on track for pleasant driving if camber only is taken out..

Edit, rule of thumb, not far from reality, 5:1 camber vs toe. I.e. -2.5 degree camber producing camber thrust amount what can be neutralized with opposite toe of -0.50. This is not precise value, but close, actual value counting isn't so simple thing, therefore not trying to put it here. We don't have all information for it, but enough for understanding is to realise at it's quite linear till 5 degree of camber and if you're capable of feel car behavior you can find one point and calculate linear amounts from it up and down.
That's on reality, linearity is supposedly in GT6 too, but what's amount of thrust camber produces on GT6 is thing what probably comes from feel, always linear, but compound should move line to different place, if modelled properly, one or two grade probably won't affect a lot, but more should give change.
And by moving line I ment i.e. If SM tires are giving 5:1, RS can give 4:1 and CH 6:1.

BTW, just tested that RUF Yellow Bird, using as is zero camber and 5:1 ratio on camber one, meaning -3.5/-2.0 -1.0/+0.20 and results are clear, with zero camber i hit few lucky laps and by lucky I mean at it's far away for stable lapping in that range, (drive 12 laps total) getting time 40.108, but with camber I lapped constants easy 40.1 times and several under, fastest was 39.915, same 12 laps with camber too.

Edit 2: had to get friend consulting, faded memories..
Bias tires 4:1 to 6:1
Radial tires 10:1 to 15:1
You may know what to do with these, if not, read below.

 

[Dashyankuro]

So, I should be investing time on setting a Race setup with Zero-Camber, Zero-Toes. Hmm..
Really need a super perfect balance of Springs.

Since everybody's using KW, right?

 

[demonchilde]

So, I should be investing time on setting a Race setup with Zero-Camber, Zero-Toes. Hmm..
Really need a super perfect balance of Springs.

Since everybody's using KW, right?

Starting with 0 cam and 0 toes is often a great idea. Ending up with 0 when your done tuning is a completely different story.
And, when is it that you don't need a "super perfect balance of springs"? Don't you always shoot for that when tuning anyway?

The ultimate point here, is that nothing I test and post results is going to prove or disprove anything to anyone else. Nothing you test will either.
Nor any of us.
We need to come up with something people can test for themselves, and make a decision FOR THEMSELVES, as thats the only word anyone is going to take to heart; thier own.

 

[Dashyankuro]

1. No. I don't always shoot for that all the time. Most of the time I just make it Drivable to complete mission; getting Gold or Meet the time. Then, the setting is left rest until I take the car back for another track, or event.

2. Exactly. It's my setting. That's my goal. Of coz, I'm doing decision for MYSELF.

Just like u said;

1. ABS, TC, and the other drive settings are all "helpers" in that, they help you become a more stable driver while your gaining experience and getting more skilled yourself.

2. Camber, as it is here, is a helper also. I see it as just another driving aid. The more aids you have on, the slower the car becomes. Although camber isn't as blatent as the other ones, I do believe its in the same category."