Kurdish independence.

[Dennisch]

The Iraqi Kurds are voting for independence today, despite pressure from the surrounding countries, and the UN, not to go on with the referendum.

A yes vote could spark a destabilisation of the region (if that is even possible) and especially Erdogan isn't particularly happy with the situation, with him already threatening the Kurds with military action.

I understand that they want independence, and in their eyes this is as good a time as any, seeing how the region has been **** for quite some time. But now the Kurds have been supplied with quite a lot of weapons to fight IS, they also have an army that has several years of battle hardening.

I say, go for it. **** has been going down long enough and this doesn't change much.

 

[Dotini]

Deleted because of false information from the BBC.

 

[PeterJB]

After the ISIS crap thins out this will ensure the perpetually war-torn Middle East will remain a :censored:show for many years to come.

 

[Liquid]

Happy to see people exercise their right to self-determination but I fear it will come at the cost of lives rather than money.

 

[Scaff]

I've just had to delete a number of posts in here.

A reminder that the AUP is quite clear in regard to insults and threats, you don't get an exemption because you dislike the individual in question.

 

[Dotini]

IMO, Kurdistan voted to secede, with over 92% in favor, in a vote with massive turnout. However, the vote lacks legitimacy, because it was conducted without the permission of the central government. The US is against secession movements in general, having also criticized the Catalonia vote coming next week. Iraq, Iran, and Turkey all seem to be preparing war against Kurdistan to bring it back under Baghdad’s thumb.

 

[TexRex]

No whey...

 

[UKMikey]

Good luck to the Kurds.

The US is against secession movements in general

I wonder where they were when Britain was busy voting itself out of the EU.

No whey...

This is serious business; no time for cheesy comments, bud.

 

[Rage Racer]

Erdogan and Putin both spoke for "territorial integrity" of Iraq on their recent meeting in Turkey.

The US is against secession movements in general

Not in case of Kosovo.

 

[Dotini]

Not in case of Kosovo.

Quite so. When a revolution, coup d'etat or secession is desirable, it is preferred that we as global leader and hegemon, and no one else, instigates it. For example, Ukraine.

 

[mustafur]

Historicly this was always going to happen, the moment Northern Iraq, Northern Syria, Eastern Turkey and Western Irans governments are in Trouble they will take what they claim as theres.

This Region is basically 90% Kurd and has been for a massive amount of time.

 

[Dotini]

Historicly this was always going to happen, the moment Northern Iraq, Northern Syria, Eastern Turkey and Western Irans governments are in Trouble they will take what they claim as theres.

This Region is basically 90% Kurd and has been for a massive amount of time.

Doesn't matter. Sykes and Picot drew their lines, and history is fixed in amber.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Doesn't matter. Sykes and Picot drew their lines, and history is fixed in amber.

Those lines don't form the current borders in exactitude though and nor were they the final word - they didn't even last a couple of years in their entirety. Neither the British nor French showed a lot of interest in fixing the borders in stone after 1917.

 

[Dotini]

Those lines don't form the current borders in exactitude though and nor were they the final word - they didn't even last a couple of years in their entirety. Neither the British nor French showed a lot of interest in fixing the borders in stone after 1917.

The lines drawn in the sand will likely stay exactly where they are until the US says otherwise.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The lines drawn in the sand will likely stay exactly where they are until the US says otherwise.

Again, no. The lines didn't stand for many long, there are considerable portions that ended up elsewhere. Whether or not current borders will be subject to the say-so of the US as you imply is another discussion of course.

 

[mustafur]

My Guess is the US doesn't want to go against Turkey who are incredibly anti-Kurd even in their own country, the Kurds would be preferable for the US though as they are much more liberal people then any other group of people in the middle eastern region(apart from maybe israel) and would make natural Allies.

 

[Dotini]

Actually, the fact is that the US has invested so heavily in Iraq that institutionally we wish not to lose that investment, and are pretty much deaf to other arguments. Even ones that are essentially correct and otherwise desirable. The map, unjust as it is, stays the same. I don't like it either, but that's the way it is.

 

[ClydeYellow]

I wonder where they were when Britain was busy voting itself out of the EU.

Heh - Brexit hardly is a secession: the EU is not a state, but a supra-statal entity established by treaty. But I wonder if they've forgot what in heck they celebrate on the 4th of July.

As for Kurdistan - it surely looks like a possibility now more that it has ever done, with Iraq essentially being unable to do much that send some stern words in the direction of Erbil, Turkey having lost any goodwill it may have had with its NATO peers, and an heightened military level of readiness supported by all the equipment that poured in from the West and Russia.

Of note is that Israel supports Kurdish independence, and the US may be swayed by the promise of access to the would-be nation's mineral riches and by Iran's increasingly rivalistic attitude. But I don't see any foreign power risking to lit the Persian Powder Keg over Kurdistan in any case.

 

[mustafur]

Iraqi forces have managed to take over Kirkuk.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/kurdish-and-iraqi-forces-in-fierce-clash-in-kirkuk-20171020-gz5gp8.html

I think overall this will end bad for the Iraqi forces, Arab Military's in general are useless in full military combat due to their self serving culture, the Kurds might have less but they know what they are doing.

 

[Dotini]

Iraqi forces have managed to take over Kirkuk.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/kurdish-and-iraqi-forces-in-fierce-clash-in-kirkuk-20171020-gz5gp8.html

I think overall this will end bad for the Iraqi forces, Arab Military's in general are useless in full military combat due to their self serving culture, the Kurds might have less but they know what they are doing.

Very interesting, and encouraging.

My cousin Karl, never fearful of political incorrectness, has long asserted that Arabs are genetically of a lower order of IQ than other races such as Kurds and Persians.

Personally, I've had little direct contact with Arabs. In my youth, I played chess with Yasser Seirawan, born of Syrian and British parents, who rose to challenge for the world chess championship on multiple occasions. And Bashar al-Assad has a European wife - perhaps so that his progeny may be genetically improved.

 

[ToyGTone]

Iraqi forces have managed to take over Kirkuk.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/kurdish-and-iraqi-forces-in-fierce-clash-in-kirkuk-20171020-gz5gp8.html

I think overall this will end bad for the Iraqi forces, Arab Military's in general are useless in full military combat due to their self serving culture, the Kurds might have less but they know what they are doing.

Maybe that's what happens when these dictators care more about their spending money on their entertainment than putting a great focus on milita- well nvm. I know nothing about how Military stuff works. Ether way, Arabs sucks at everything and will suck until the end of time, we are doomed.

Very interesting, and encouraging.

My cousin Karl, never fearful of political incorrectness, has long asserted that Arabs are genetically of a lower order of IQ than other races

Let me guess, because cousin marriage?

such as Kurds and Persians.

At least i have some relatives with Persian background.


------------
Well i guess, good for the Kurds... i just don't hope things get worse towards anyone tho.
it will.

 

[mustafur]

The problem isn't money Saudi Arabia spend the 3rd most on Military, but their chain of command is completely flawed.

 

[ToyGTone]

The problem isn't money Saudi Arabia spend the 3rd most on Military, but their chain of command is completely flawed.

Sorry my bad, just completed the video you linked and i agree with that video...mostly.

Unrelated but the quality of comments on the other hand, Jesus...
And they say they are liberals and against racism?? Why are they calling me by the "N word" and "monkeys" in a such poor written comments?
Somehow they believe that the "Army" being so bad had to do with them being Muslims and oh "All of them rape women and shouts االله أكبر".

I honestly have a much bigger problems with those people than anyone else. Sorry for the offtopic.

 

[mustafur]

Youtube comments are cancer you shouldn't be surprised.

 

[ToyGTone]

Youtube comments are cancer you shouldn't be surprised.

I'm pretty sure we all know that but my mind still hurts.

 

[AdamA998]

Kurds already have guaranteed regional autonomy, people who expected this to succeed are foolish and hypocritical. Kurds are not more or less liberal than anyone else in the region, many people in the region are secular by lifestyle while the system of government is a form of monarchy or republic.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Kurds already have guaranteed regional autonomy...

Guaranteed by whom and with what strength of support?

...people who expected this to succeed are foolish and hypocritical.

So you kind of contradict your claim of a guarantee there. Why do you say that people who believe in any such guarantee are hypocrites?

Kurds are not more or less liberal than anyone else in the region...

Strange way of putting it, it depends on exactly who you're talking about - unless you're treating them as a single entity?

many people in the region are secular by lifestyle...

Which is relevant how?

...while the system of government is a form of monarchy or republic.

It sounds as though you're conflating the two as similar, they very much aren't. What's the point you're getting at?

 

[AdamA998]

Guaranteed by whom and with what strength of support?

Iraqi constitution gives them autonomy by recognizing 'KRG' as a federal region, allowing them to have own governmental control over the area. Previously under Saddam UN resolutions provided military protection. They are under no threat by the modern Baghdadi gov't, so there is no protection they need to worry about.

So you kind of contradict your claim of a guarantee there. Why do you say that people who believe in any such guarantee are hypocrites?

It's illegal under Iraqi constitution, so it won't happen. But I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to right wingers who oppose Palestinian and Catalonian independence but support Kurdish independence.

Strange way of putting it, it depends on exactly who you're talking about - unless you're treating them as a single entity?

Not strange at all, there is a misperceived notion in the West that the Kurds are the only embodiment of secularism in the region. Not true, look at Tunisians or Emirates or Moroccans or Lebanese, etc....

Which is relevant how?

Answered you're question above.

 

[Scaff]

Iraqi constitution gives them autonomy by recognizing 'KRG' as a federal region, allowing them to have own governmental control over the area. Previously under Saddam UN resolutions provided military protection. They are under no threat by the modern Baghdadi gov't, so there is no protection they need to worry about.

Arguably not from the South, but what about Turkey to the north?

Not strange at all, there is a misperceived notion in the West that the Kurds are the only embodiment of secularism in the region. Not true, look at Tunisians or Emirates or Moroccans or Lebanese, etc....

Not from all of us.

Having worked or lived or had family live in all but one of those countries listed, I would have to disagree with the Emirates being secular.

When you can get arrested and charged for accidentally touching another man's hip, then something is amiss.

Now the UAE isn't as bad as the likes of Saudi or Kuwait in that regard, but it is a whole lot less transparent. It has a shiny veneer of secularism, but under the surface is anything but.

I would quite happily go on holiday to any of the ones you mentioned (and we are planning one to Morroco again), however having been to the UAE for work a half dozen times and had family live in Dubai for 5 years it's not a holiday destination I would go for.

 

[AdamA998]

Arguably not from the South, but what about Turkey to the north?

Turkey had ties and trade with the KRG, and even Barzani himself. Turkey won't conduct cross border activity without permission from Iraq and those clashes usually occur between them and the PKK. It has died down recently so that is good news, now it should remain and entirely Iraqi affair.

Not from all of us.

Without a doubt.

Having worked or lived or had family live in all but one of those countries listed, I would have to disagree with the Emirates being secular.

When you can get arrested and charged for accidentally touching another man's hip, then something is amiss.

Now the UAE isn't as bad as the likes of Saudi or Kuwait in that regard, but it is a whole lot less transparent. It has a shiny veneer of secularism, but under the surface is anything but.

I would quite happily go on holiday to any of the ones you mentioned (and we are planning one to Morroco again), however having been to the UAE for work a half dozen times and had family live in Dubai for 5 years it's not a holiday destination I would go for.

Government in Emirates is harsh on opposition and there is even such a thing as thought crimes there, but as far as lifestyle goes they are rather loose. There are night clubs in Dubai for example. I'm not sure what occurred in that incident with that tourist or what he got in trouble in for. The point is the people there are secular, or live a lifestyle with minimal religious influence. I would say the same about those other country's I mentioned along with Jordan, Bahrain, Algeria, even Kuwait has somewhat secular lifestyle. Egypt depends on the area you're in, since many people are poor and more traditional there.

UAE is a hit or miss for vacationing, really depends on the person. If you're into the weather and nightlife in the city, you'll like it. I wouldn't recommend staying at those expensive hotels, there is more to do in the UAE if you know some people there. You can also visit nearby Oman as well. Interesting scenery and culture there.