Laser Propulsion - Scientific Discussion (Engine is real!) +New poll!

[sk8er913]

The Chaparral VGT says it is powered by a laser and says it creates approximately 900hp worth of thrust with a laser. I know a little bit about lasers, photons, acceleration from radiation, and solar sails etc. And I don't think this is even possible, If you know or want to know anything about how this system is supposed to work, I would like to know too, and hopefully we can have a nice discussion on how good or bad lasers of an idea laser propulsion is; and if we want it on more cars.



Update #2


Update#1(old)

After much discussion so far the most realistic theory of how this engine works is that its a jet engine, here is some educational information about jets and it is easy to imagine how well a laser would work at this as well as some quotes from the article that point in the direction of a laser jet.

"Chaparral 2X VGT weaves advanced aerospace technologies into the design to help achieve its performance goals."

"Inspired by technology derived from advanced work targeted at space travel and future aircraft design."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Jet_engine.svg

 

[Aphelion]

Chameleon: Thats... IMPOSSIBLE!

Chaparral: But it just might work!

But the article does say that the technology could possibly be used for space travel though, so i don't know. Definitely not happening in the near future!

 

[Tornado]

The theory behind the system is one currently being worked on for propulsion in space for long distance voyages. Not really being a literal rocket scientist, I can only assume the theory is sound or they wouldn't be spending so much effort on it.



I certainly don't want it on any cars in a Gran Turismo game, since anything it is applied to in the context of a racing game in 2014 is essentially arbitrarily made up on the spot and PD already does that far too much with cars that could actually currently exist.

 

[sk8er913]

Chameleon: Thats... IMPOSSIBLE!

Chaparral: But it just might work!

But the article does say that the technology could possibly be used for space travel though, so i don't know. Definitely not happening in the near future!

Yes in space technology there is a tech that is powered by lasers but, the thrust it gives is like 0.001 Horsepower and its the size of a football field.

 

[Aphelion]

The theory behind the system is one currently being worked on for propulsion in space for long distance voyages. Not really being a literal rocket scientist, I can only assume the theory is sound or they wouldn't be spending so much effort on it.



I certainly don't want it on any cars in a Gran Turismo game, since anything it is applied to in the context of a racing game in 2014 is essentially arbitrarily made up on the spot and PD already does that far too much with cars that could actually currently exist.

But PD didn't design the car...

 

[sk8er913]

But PD didn't design the car...

I know, GM did, but I wonder what exactly the engineers were thinking, although the thread about "exotic propulsion systems" has now been answered XD! Here's what is powered by lasers (mostly the sun, but also but lasers too.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

"In the 1970s, Robert Forward proposed two beam-powered propulsion schemes using either lasers or masers to push giant sails to a significant fraction of the speed of light."
...
"A small team had initially proposed a beryllium inflated sail that would go down to 0.05 AU from the Sun in order to get an acceleration peaking at 36.4 m/s2"
...
(36.4 m/s^2 is 3.7 Gs)... but you have to have a gigantic sail and you need a lot of radiation for the sail to catch...
...
I don't think its practical to use it as a cars propulsion.
...
Japan's JAXA successfully tested IKAROS in 2010. The goal was to deploy and control the sail and for the first time determining the minute orbit perturbations caused by light pressure. Orbit determination was done by the nearby AKATSUKI probe from which IKAROS detached after both had been brought into a transfer orbit to Venus. The total effect over the six month' flight was 100 m/s(0.000006 Gs)

 

[Nato_777]

Current technology uses a ground based laser to fire a lightweight craft upwards. I presume the power required means a craft based laser is out of the question with current technology. However I think the concept is sound, it just requires much advance in the power/size of the laser unit.
If you look at computer tech and how it's advanced I guess it's not out of the question. I mean 30 years ago the sort of power/speed current computers have was virtually unthinkable.

 

[phosphor112]

The Chaparral VGT says it is powered by a laser and says it creates approximately 900hp worth of thrust with a laser. I know a little bit about lasers, photons, acceleration from radiation, and solar sails etc. And I don't think this is even possible, If you know or want to know anything about how this system is supposed to work, I would like to know too, and hopefully we can have a nice discussion on how good or bad lasers of an idea laser propulsion is; and if we want it on more cars.

First of all, I pooped my pants seeing that trailer.

Anyway, the way the tech works is that a high powered laser is pointed at the big "cone" at the back. The laser then gets focused into a small space that heats the air enough to cause combustion.

Small scale tests work. Concepts for space crafts exist.

Really neat technology.

 

[Tornado]

But PD didn't design the car...

I didn't say PD did design the car. But the people who did were presumably the ones who made up things to go with their complete fantasy design that is being put into the serious racing game.



Ask yourself this: Why does the 2X only go 250 MPH? Why does it accelerate to 60 in 1.5 seconds? Why does it make 900 horsepower? Any one of those numbers could be literally everything they wanted them to be. I'm doubting there were any aerospace engineers on the design team for the internal GM design side project.
For the game series famous for giving accurate representations of things like Suzuki Wagon Rs and the like to the level of extensively justifying the inclusion of their other complete fantasy car based on its supposed real world viability, it's a bit incongruous to suddenly put in a bunch of cars powered by what might as well be called MAGIC! that make whatever equivalent horsepower and go however fast PD wants to say they do because who is going to prove otherwise?

 

[phosphor112]

Oh, and I don't know if people noticed, but the 2X has laser(s?) on the back of it pointing at it to propel the system.

 

[Aphelion]

I didn't say PD did design the car. But the people who did were presumably the ones who made up things to go with their complete fantasy design that is being put into the serious racing game.



Ask yourself this: Why does the 2X only go 250 MPH? Why does it accelerate to 60 in 1.5 seconds? Why does it make 900 horsepower? Any one of those numbers could be literally everything they wanted them to be. I'm doubting there were any aerospace engineers on the design team for the internal GM design side project.
For the game series famous for giving accurate representations of things like Suzuki Wagon Rs and the like to the level of extensively justifying the inclusion of their other complete fantasy car based on its supposed real world viability, it's a bit incongruous to suddenly put in a bunch of cars powered by what might as well be called MAGIC! that make whatever equivalent horsepower and go however fast PD wants to say they do because who is going to prove otherwise?

That's the point though. I really don't care. That is the reason this is my favorite VGT. It is running on lazers and shock waves.

 

[sk8er913]

Oh, and I don't know if people noticed, but the 2X has laser(s?) on the back of it pointing at it to propel the system.

In 2010 that was done successfully on a spacecraft but it only accelerated them at 0.000006 Gforces...

 

[phosphor112]

In 2010 that was done successfully on a spacecraft but it only accelerated them at 0.000006 Gforces...

Lol, brilliant! By any chance have a link?

 

[sk8er913]

Lol, brilliant! By any chance have a link?

Japan's JAXA successfully tested IKAROS in 2010

There's the name Google it and I'm sure you will get lots of links. It was a very important breakthrough for the space sciences

 

[Panoz]

I believe the laser is more less the fuel for the 2X. The batteries supply the laser with its power and the "air-powered" generator helps the laser for its thrust. Something like a jet/rocket engine in someways.

I'm nothing close to a engineer of any sorts, but this is just my theory on what GM has come up with.

 

[Tornado]

That's the point though. I really don't care. That is the reason this is my favorite VGT. It is running on lazers and shock waves.

So the question then becomes: are others not supposed to care either?

 

[brianwong]

I feel like they're going more for something like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_Laser_Thruster

 

[sparkytooth]

I'm more interested in how this Laser system will differentiate the machine itself from the many other machines in the game instead of how wacky it is or is not, or how this has anything to do with how "Serious" GT is supposed to be.

 

[smskeeter23]

 

[Giygas]

I really like the idea of a laser-propulsion system for an automobile, but I do want to know how they arrived at such numbers with the system they're using and the benefits it provides versus a more conventional means of propulsion for an automobile.

I'm really looking forward to driving it. I wonder if another company will provide a VGT with similar performance to this one.

 

[sk8er913]

I really like the idea of a laser-propulsion system for an automobile, but I do want to know how they arrived at such numbers with the system they're using and the benefits it provides versus a more conventional means of propulsion for an automobile.

I'm really looking forward to driving it. I wonder if another company will provide a VGT with similar performance to this one.

Then you should go to the other forum about the VGT.

 

[Aphelion]

So the question then becomes: are others not supposed to care either?

No. You shouldn't care. It is just sitting there; you don't have to look at it. And in the case that you think that there are better things that PD could be working on (which there are) then you should definitely know better than that by now. PD does what PD wants to do, which is why the state of this game has deteriorated so much recently.

 

[sk8er913]

Well all a laser is, is a tiny flashlight with a bunch of mirrors inside of it that reflect off of each other... Anyways I sent out an email that will hopefully reach the design team.

 

[Tornado]

No. You shouldn't care.

Lucky for us the thread is not about "Chameleon9000 and no one else's opinion on the car". I find it most interesting that your insistence on how much you just don't care about the Wipeout car in the Gran Turismo game manifests itself in repeatedly questioning others who do even when they outline in detail why they think the car doesn't belong.

And in the case that you think that there are better things that PD could be working on (which there are) then you should definitely know better than that by now. PD does what PD wants to do, which is why the state of this game has deteriorated so much recently.

Why, that's a happy thought.

 

[Aphelion]

Lucky for us the thread is not about "Chameleon9000 and no one else's opinion on the car". I find it most interesting that your insistence on how much you just don't care about the Wipeout car in the Gran Turismo game manifests itself in repeatedly questioning others who do even when they outline in detail why they think the car doesn't belong.


Why, that's a happy thought.

OK... This is not what i wanted to happen. I should have said "i don't think you should care" not strait up "you shouldn't care. And no, this thread is not about me (although i never meant it to be), but that is my opinion, and i should have stated that. Sorry.

Why, that's a happy thought.

Oh don't get me wrong! I pretty much love PD because of this, just as i love Chaparral for doing whatever they want. I am sorry about my miss-communication.

 

[RacingManiac]

What is interesting as a concept, is that like say a Jet powered car or a rocket powered car, you are using thrust to push the car forward, the difference being here, with this concept, your thrust is more "on-demand" than a jet engine. Jet needs to be ramp up and down, their thrust is more or less continuous, you can redirect it, but you can't kill it immediately under braking, then go WOT and immediately be at max output. If we are still limiting the car as a ground vehicle on wheels and tire, you still have finite cornering capability, so you still need to slow for a turn, even if you vector thrust with a jet. With laser, your forward thrust is governed by the detonation of each pulse and the rate of pulses. Since each event is discrete, you can be at off, and at max thrust the immediate next cycle, and anything in between. I imagine as a "sound", you get quick loud rapid pulses at "WOT", and less frequent or less powerful pulses at part throttle. Under braking its probably silent but as soon as you are pointed the right direction off you go again.

The driving sensation must be odd since you can basically call for full thrust without worrying about traction.

The real Sci-Fi part is what powers the laser thats powerful enough to push a car at that kind of speed, and what energy store you have to use to have that amount of energy on the car. I'd imagine a laser that powerful probably won't fit in a car nowadays...

Still, really interesting idea though...

 

[Tenacious D]

This whole concept seems to work by Genie magic. I don't see room for enough batteries to deliver enough power to a laser to generate 670kW. The housing seems too small for a 670kW laser. How much power would that laser need to pump out 670kW pulses? Is that enough power to turn air into plasma? Zero to 60 in less than two seconds... really? Would lithium ion batteries even last a minute with that kind of drain? And of course, the car needs to be powered too.

I'd say that the science required makes it unfeasible. But it is sexy new girl - I mean, tech, and I'll give it a spin or fifty, and I really doubt I'll mind the science fiction aspect of it.

 

[Imari]

The way it sounds to me is like the laser is being focussed to heat something, presumably air, and then the pressure of expansion is used to drive the car. Funky.

Unfortunately, while it's possibly the coolest idea I've heard in ages, they've not exactly bothered to engineer it in a sensible way.

A 670kW laser is not going to be able to transform it's power into thrust at near 100% efficiency that it would need to produce 900hp. That's fantasy.

Having a 670kW laser that mounts to a car is fantasy in itself. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...n-reveals-portable-LASER-weapon-used-the.html

An "air powered generator" sounds to me like a windmill. You cannot put a windmill on a car and gain energy. That's perpetual motion.


I'm going to give them props for completely ignoring what is possible. This is a fantasy car in every sense of the word. It cannot exist with anything like the technology likely to be available in the near future, and indeed probably cannot exist at all with it's reliance upon a perpetual motion generator for power. But the control mechanisms are awesome, and this is probably the best example of what I think the VGT program should be used for: completely bat-🤬 insane ideas that aren't actually physically feasible, but are really cool anyway.

 

[Tenacious D]

An "air powered generator" sounds to me like a windmill. You cannot put a windmill on a car and gain energy. That's perpetual motion.

How do you gain energy from braking? And keep in mind that the primary power source are the plethora of Li-ion batteries evidently in every available space of the car. The air powered generator is indeed a small turbine windmill, but due to battery power, it isn't perpetual motion any more than brake energy recovery is.

Still, this is a sci-fi car, so roll with it like that.

 

[sk8er913]

A 670kW laser is not going to be able to transform it's power into thrust at near 100% efficiency that it would need to produce 900hp. That's fantasy.

670 KW = 898 HP so its more than 100%.

...

It could be fired at short burst inside of a camber that traps air and super heats it at a very fast rate and slowly releases it as a jet of hot air. I notice a lot of heat sinks on the model, so that it can dissipate it faster, it would be horribly inefficient with a terribly huge amount of energy lost, but I think it would work. We should ask PD to ask for all VGTs to be physically possible.