Last of the true American musclecar?

[JCE]

I was thinking about this today and was wondering what the general consensus is. What is the last great American musclecar? That means a musclecar with an American badge sold in America. So no mentions of foreign badges, no mentions of "well this car is this car just rebadged" either.

I know what you're thinking...the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are great musclecars right? No. While very much decent cars they do not invoke the true feeling and image of the musclecar. Close, but not quite. That simply means point and shoot then slam the accelerator to the floor and hold on while the world comes to an end from the noise and tire smoke. That's a musclecar, no handling, just brute force with smoke and noise. The Mustang and Camaro actually handle well, this puts them more in the sports car or 2+2 GT category or pony car. Which is fine, they are still good. But a negative about the Camaro is the noise is subdued and way too quiet. While the Mustang is too comfortable practical to be a brute.

What's left? The Ford Crown Victoria technically fits the musclecar category, large body, V8 and RWD. No longer made and the power is less than stellar no matter how good the exhaust note is. The Mercury Marauder was more of a musclecar, but it was very short lived.

Again, what's left? Well thankfully Dodge--yes Dodge--hasn't disappointed with the Challenger. Its big, heavy, simple and has a huge V8. Plus makes all the right kinds of noises as well. While the Dodge Charger is good, it doesn't look like a musclecar should so I count it out.

---------------------------------------

So what's my pick as the current/last great American musclecar? I saw and heard one of these "392's" for the first time last weekend and just about broke my neck turning around so quickly to look at it before it passed me. I've never heard a modern car sound just like a classic 60's musclecar, until now. Funny thing, this 6.4L version with all that extra power gets better MPG than the normal SRT-8. Ironic isn't it?

2011 Dodge Challenger SRT-8 392
6.4L V8
470bhp
470tq
Available in a 6spd Tremec TR-6060 manual!
0-60 in 4.7s
Top speed 182mph

What say you?

 

[Mike0105]

Not my area of expertise, but aren't 'true muscle cars' from a specific era only? I.e. 1960's and 70's?

Like you said, modern cars aren't about humble saloons pumped up with V8's, they are purpose built and priced accordingly and to me, that defeats the ethos of a muscle car.

 

[Eric.]

So the Challenger wins because it sucks?

 

[Luminis]

That's a musclecar, no handling, just brute force with smoke and noise.

You make that sound like it's a good thing.

While the Mustang is too comfortable practical to be a brute.

And you make this sound like it's a bad thing.

I mean, muscle car or not, a good car has to be, you know, good in the first place. Being a brute comes second. And I do think that the Mustang is a very fine brute, still.

 

[Zenith]

Meh, Muscle cars don't need to have poor handling and bad comforts, they need to be simple. If this does mean that they have poor handling and comforts, then so be it, but you can't say that it's not a muscle car because it handles too well and rides too comfortably.

This might come off as a bit nit-picky, but I make a distinction between pony cars (Challenger, Camaro, Mustang) and full on muscle cars (GTO, Charger, Torino).

Pony cars had pretty decent handling for their time, even when compared to the European and emerging Japanese cars. In the Trans Am Racing series, they demonstrated that they were, in fact, capable of holding a fair amount of momentum through curves. Muscle cars like the Charger fit the stereotype of a two ton beast of tire smoke and ignorance.

Muscle cars are the American equivalent of an AMG S class.

Pony cars are the American equivalent of an M3.

Daytona Oval, Laguna Seca. You get the idea.

The modern Challenger is a pony car, and a bad one at that because it can't turn. IMO, there are no real muscle cars left. Crown Vic was close, but a bit limp-wristed and neutral looking.

It probably has a lot to do with scale. Muscle cars of the 60's were a lot bigger than your average sedan, but cars have gotten much bigger over the years. If someone were to preserve the scale of a muscle car vs. regular car, the damn thing would be massive.

 

[Azuremen]

So the Challenger wins because it sucks?

Seconding this.

 

[CodeRedR51]

You listed it as a Charger BTW.

 

[MEJ1990TM]

To me a muscle car is a mid size car with a big blocvk V-8. These new cars aren't muscle cars to me. Especially not a four door sedan as the new Charger is. As to the older cars not handling. That is just a show of ignorance. They may not keep up around corners with a modern car, but if you put the right suspension under a forty year old American car they can handle just fine.

 

[Cano]

Yes, it's a pony car, arguably the best handling one ever created -beat Vettes of the era, IRS and all- but it was the last of the really powerful big blocks.

 

[zr1chris]

To me a muscle car is a mid size car with a big blocvk V-8. These new cars aren't muscle cars to me. Especially not a four door sedan as the new Charger is. As to the older cars not handling. That is just a show of ignorance. They may not keep up around corners with a modern car, but if you put the right suspension under a forty year old American car they can handle just fine.

Good point. Its often been thought that old muscle cars didn't handle good but those people are holding them to todays standards. Most of them actually handled quite well as compared to the average car of that time.

 

[eSZee]

I don't think most handled much better. There were very few, mostly road versions of trans am series cars and the like. Z28, BOSS, I think the 440cuda and hemi cuda things like that. Most of the changes were reinforcements to handle the power but as suspension goes, they added a sway bar and that was about it from what I read/saw.

 

[Cale]

So you're saying the Mustang is too practical and comfortable? The Challenger is the most practical and the most comfortable of the three. It's best suited to highway cruising. (Which muscle cars are not) However the Challenger is closest to the cars from the 60's/early 70's that most consider muscle cars, and the Camaro/Mustang are closer to the original idea of the "ponycar" which they were designed to be.

 

[Keef]

Seconding this.

Third. Qualifying as a muscle car is more of an aura thing than a performance thing. While the Challenger does, the Camaro and Mustang are better at it. I think the late Mercury Marauder was a muscle car too. Dodge's other SRT8 models fit the bill. Mercedes even makes a couple in the E63 and C63.

 

[Tornado]

Good point. Its often been thought that old muscle cars didn't handle good but those people are holding them to todays standards. Most of them actually handled quite well as compared to the average car of that time.

Unless it was on the "small" end of the spectrum (Javelins, Camaros, Mustangs, etc,; and even then only certain trims of them), your typical muscle car didn't handle any better than the typical full size sedans that many of them sourced the drivetrain parts from. Any increase in handling prowess was really only because of the bigger tires and tuned suspensions added to accept the increased power.

 

[zr1chris]

Unless it was on the "small" end of the spectrum (Javelins, Camaros, Mustangs, etc,; and even then only certain trims of them), your typical muscle car didn't handle any better than the typical full size sedans that many of them sourced the drivetrain parts from. Any increase in handling prowess was really only because of the bigger tires and tuned suspensions added to accept the increased power.

That's all I'm really saying. I'm not saying there were way better but they sure weren't any worse. They were usually as good or better than the typical car (american anyway) for the reasons that you have in your last sentence which most muscle cars had.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

So we're celebrating mediocrity due to nostalgia? I rather have today's American cars.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

The Challenger is the closest to a classic American muscle car, but it is still a pony car and in today's criteria that would actually be seen as a bad thing.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

The Challenger is the closest to a classic American muscle car, but it is still a pony car and in today's criteria that would actually be seen as a bad thing.

I think both the Camaro and Challenger are muscle cars more so than pony cars because they are based on full-size platforms, where as the Mustang has a dedicated platform.

 

[AMCNUT]

I'm not overly sure - there are too many possible ways to define a muscle car. I would be inclined to say that the Challenger/Camaro/Mustang are the best ones currently available (to me at least, muscle cars should have two doors, four seats, massive V8 power, rear drive, be American, and, most importantly, be menacing). Pony cars to me are mostly the same as above, but I've always pictured them with V6s and a tad more civility, and not quite so menacing.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Tornado]

The Challenger is the closest to a classic American muscle car, but it is still a pony car

Fun fact: The Dodge Challenger is nearly the same size as and is considerably heavier than an Oldsmobile 4-4-2.

 

[Dan_]

So the Challenger wins because it sucks?

Apparently, and the 392 SRT isn't exactly cheap either, I'm not american but I suppose that pretty much spoils the concept of extreme and affordable power that's inerent to muscle cars of old.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Fun fact: The Dodge Challenger is nearly the same size as and is considerably heavier than an Oldsmobile 4-4-2.

...So?

 

[Northstar]

Mustang wins by default as the Camaro and Challenger are both made in Canada.

 

[MEJ1990TM]

Good point. Its often been thought that old muscle cars didn't handle good but those people are holding them to todays standards. Most of them actually handled quite well as compared to the average car of that time.

When we did the suspension on the '70 it got all new rubber bushings like the factory used, but it got some better springs and KYB gas shocks. With the little upgraded suspension ,and the new tires that are on the front, you can typically get double the posted speed limit going around corners without getting too scared. Usually half again the speed limit without needing to think about touching the brakes. I've got cars that will ride my back end in the straights, but since I don't slow down for turns I leave them in the dust. It's quite funny actually. People will ride my back end like I am going ten under the speed limit, but when it comes to turning they ride their brakes like a little old lady. Here I am wheeling this forty year old sled around corners at 10-15 over without even thinking about slowing down. Not that I am a race car driver, but a lot of it is the driver. I like going in a straight line, but I also like wheeling around corners too.

I can tell you that the '70 will run circles around my '71. The '71 has the stock Malibu suspension, not the F41 the Super Sports got. Small sway bar in front, no bar in back, pretty soft springs/shocks, and drum brakes all around. It's got a fairly solid feel going around corners, but there is a lot more body lean to that car than there is with the '70. I did put new Monroe shocks all around on the '71, but they are stock type.

 

[Tornado]

...So?

So there's no particular reason to call it a pony car when even the Camaro is stretching the definition.

 

[Paulie]

I disagree that a muscle car can't be a muscle car if it handles well, it just means it's a muscle car that handles well, that's just an excuse muscle car haters use so they can say a muscle car will never beat them (Some non-muscle car haters accidentally buy in to it). To me a muscle car is made by drivetrain and styling.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

So there's no particular reason to call it a pony car when even the Camaro is stretching the definition.

But the Mustang, Challenger and Camaro have been generally categorised as pony cars, regardless of how well they're blurring the lines.

 

[Tornado]

Pony car?

 

[Jim Prower]

Nameplates mean nothing, and I almost think the term "pony car" became outdated by the mid '80s, when the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird started competing in the inexpensive sports coupe genre - now, the Mustang can be cross-shopped with cars like the 370Z.

 

[jet1991]

To me the last "real" muscle car was several different cars depending on how much i want to argue that day. The SD trans-ams of the early 70s, the last big cube bird (76 trans-am) and the 79 trans-am are the cars i usually consider as the last of their kind. The trans-ams kept the power somewhat even when everyone else stopped making muscle cars. I`d also like to nominatoe the C3 Corvette. The Corvettes were never muscle cars by definition, but they didn`t change the frames and suspension much at all between 1963 and 1982 () and I still don`t find their handling to be that bad. But this means they are easy to fix and it`s cheap and easy to get NOS or used parts which is a very good thing when the cars are 30 years +. The last Hemi cars and the boss rustangs might also be good answers.

I don`t consider the new Challenger, Camaro and Mustang to be muscle or pony cars. They are way to complicated for me - I don`t like the idea of leaving the car with a shop to get it serviced or fixed. And I don`t like ECUs, TCUs and computers in general.